‘Men’s rights’ group defends posters claiming women lie about rape
670 replies, posted
[QUOTE=NoDachi;41428601]So women who get drunk/wear ~slutty clothing~ are partially responsible for making the rape happen.
Thats a pretty fucked up thing to say m8[/QUOTE]
So a person who didn't lock their car is partially responsible for having it stolen.
So a person choosing to walk down a dark alley is partially responsible for getting mugged.
Thats a pretty fucked up thing to say m8
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;41426667]2 things.
First, when there's not enough evidence and the accused is found not guilty it doesn't mean the claim is considered a false claim. Otherwise all the claims where someone was reported but not convicted would be taken as false claims and it would be like 90% of false claims. Claim is considered false when there's evidence proving that the rape didn't happen not when there isn't enough evidence to prove that it happened.
Second ,like I said earlier you don't know how many claims that never made it to court were false.[/quote]
When there's not enough evidence and the accused is found not guilty, it's often reported as "unfounded." "Unfounded" statistics are often calculated into false rape allegations statistics. The FBI themselves know that the "unfounded" category is a crapshoot, since you'll find both false claims and legitimate claims that can't be prosecuted. It's a meaningless statistic that's often calculated into false rape allegation statitics in order to suggest that false allegations are more prevalent.
There's very little statistics on the validity of rape claims outside of court, but we know that many victims feel pressured not to bring their cases into Justice systems. In the US 39% of all rape victims bring their cases to the police, which means that 61% of all victims aren't even working towards prosecuting their rapists at all. And 50% of all rape cases end with no arrest even made, according to the DoJ. That's a fundamental issue where rapists assault women and walk away free. The statistics are there to suggest that victims are much more likely to never have the perp brought to justice, than for a man or a woman to be mistakenly labeled a rapist.
[quote]Personal safety is your own responsibility. If you create situation where you increase chances of getting hurt it's your fault. For increasing the danger not for getting hurt. Only the rapist is to blame for rape. A woman might be to blame for putting herself in danger.
It's really easy. There are men in dark alleys who'll mug me or beat me up for no reason. I avoid those alleys or I have something to defend myself with.
There are men in clubs who just wait for an opportunity to take advantage of a drunk girl. Don't get smashed with strangers or have someone who you trust and who will take care of you.
Otherwise you are to blame for ignoring the danger. The perp is still the only responsible one for what he did, but you could have avoided it. Do yourself a favor.[/QUOTE]
So, if I go out to a bar, and a cute girl buys me drinks, then takes [i]me[/i] home and forces me to give oral - is that my fault? I guess I shouldn't have spent time with weird girls at that club, if all they were going to do was buy me drinks and force me to lick their pussy. It's my fault - I should never hang out at places where creepy girls are. I was personally responsible for that, huh?
Likewise, you're suggesting that rape is much more likely to happen with a stranger, which isn't true. Statistics show that most victims know their rapist ahead of time. According to the DoJ, only 26% of rapes are committed by strangers; 38% are by a friend, 28% by a significant other, and 7% by a relative. That means, in 73% of all rape cases, the victim is spending time with someone they trust and is being taken advantage of.
In your case - let's say two people go to the bar. The girl brings her best friend, a boy, along in order to protect her from any creepy stranger. The girl drinks heavily that night, trusting the boy by her side. After all, he decided to "treat" the girl out and pay for her drinks. She's heavily drunk by the time the bar is winding down, so he brings her to his apartment. She's very smashed; he paid a lot for her drinks. So he proceeds to molest and rape her while she's too drunk to fight him.
She trusted her best friend to watch out for her. There was never any sign that he was a rapist. But he betrayed her and raped her.
This is the sort of situation that happens. Not a stranger in the alley way. A trusting friend betraying and raping another friend. 73% of all cases are similar. How can you protect yourself from someone, when there's NO signs at all that they're a rapist? There's no telltale radar or indicator that you can buy that teaches you when a friend might be a potential rapist.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;41428601]So women who get drunk/wear ~slutty clothing~ are partially responsible for making the rape happen.
Thats a pretty fucked up thing to say m8[/QUOTE]
You're putting words in his mouth. Being responsible is not equivalent to blaming the victim.
[QUOTE=JeanLuc761;41428663]You're putting words in his mouth. Being responsible is not equivalent to blaming the victim.[/QUOTE]
No I'm not putting words into his mouth.
He directly said this about women.
"They are responsible for making it more likely to happen".
[QUOTE=NoDachi;41428690]No I'm not putting words into his mouth.
He directly said this about women.
"They are responsible for making it more likely to happen".[/QUOTE]
My bad, missed that.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41428641]When there's not enough evidence and the accused is found not guilty, it's often reported as "unfounded." "Unfounded" statistics are often calculated into false rape allegations statistics. The FBI themselves know that the "unfounded" category is a crapshoot, since you'll find both false claims and legitimate claims that can't be prosecuted. It's a meaningless statistic that's often calculated into false rape allegation statitics in order to suggest that false allegations are more prevalent.
There's very little statistics on the validity of rape claims outside of court, but we know that many victims feel pressured not to bring their cases into Justice systems. In the US 39% of all rape victims bring their cases to the police, which means that 61% of all victims aren't even working towards prosecuting their rapists at all. And 50% of all rape cases end with no arrest even made, according to the DoJ. That's a fundamental issue where rapists assault women and walk away free. The statistics are there to suggest that victims are much more likely to never have the perp brought to justice, than for a man or a woman to be mistakenly labeled a rapist.[/QUOTE]
Of course. I never said otherwise. I'm just saying it's a bit more than 2% or few isolated incidents. That doesn't mean I'm saying there's some giant number of false rape claims.
You can't really tell how many claims are false since there are many that never make it to court. You can only get a statistic of how many were proven false.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41428641]So, if I go out to a bar, and a cute girl buys me drinks, then takes [I]me[/I] home and forces me to give oral - is that my fault? I guess I shouldn't have spent time with weird girls at that club, if all they were going to do was buy me drinks and force me to lick their pussy. It's my fault - I should never hang out at places where creepy girls are. I was personally responsible for that, huh?[/QUOTE]
Is it your fault that she forced you to do something? What? Why are you people thinking only in absolutes. 1-0 brain. Obviously the rapists is at fault here so the victim couldn't have possibly done anything stupid or irresponsible right?
If I go to a bar get shitfaced and wake up in the morning with no wallet, then only the thief is to blame for theft. I'm to blame for not anticipating it, for making it more likely to happen, but not for the act itself.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41428641]Likewise, you're suggesting that rape is much more likely to happen with a stranger, which isn't true. Statistics show that most victims know their rapist ahead of time. According to the DoJ, only 26% of rapes are committed by strangers; 38% are by a friend, 28% by a significant other, and 7% by a relative. That means, in 73% of all rape cases, the victim is spending time with someone they trust and is being taken advantage of.[/QUOTE]
What does this statistic have to do with what we're talking about? We've been talking about drinking with strangers from the start. I'm not suggesting anything, this was the subject of the discussion. Getting drunk and being taken advantage of.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41428641]In your case - let's say two people go to the bar. The girl brings her best friend, a boy, along in order to protect her from any creepy stranger. The girl drinks heavily that night, trusting the boy by her side. After all, he decided to "treat" the girl out and pay for her drinks. She's heavily drunk by the time the bar is winding down, so he brings her to his apartment. She's very smashed; he paid a lot for her drinks. So he proceeds to molest and rape her while she's too drunk to fight him.
She trusted her best friend to watch out for her. There was never any sign that he was a rapist. But he betrayed her and raped her.
This is the sort of situation that happens. Not a stranger in the alley way. A trusting friend betraying and raping another friend. 73% of all cases are similar. How can you protect yourself from someone, when there's NO signs at all that they're a rapist? There's no telltale radar or indicator that you can buy that teaches you when a friend might be a potential rapist.[/QUOTE]
So we're no longer talking about getting drunk with strangers?
In this case the woman couldn't have anticipated the danger. She couldn't have taken precautions. I was only talking about cases where you indeed can. Like getting drunk with strangers.
Look it's very easy I don't understand why do you refuse to open your mind for a second.
Are there men in bars waiting for drunk girls to have sex with them and will buy them drinks to make them unable to fight back?
Is it a good idea to get drunk with strangers that we've just established want to hurt you?
Is your solution for this situation to ignore that those people exist (as long as they exist)?
Why is it a good idea to consider that car thieves exist and lock your car but it's terrible to suggest that women should consider that there are rapists in clubs who just wait for opportunity and be careful?
My only belief is this: Want to drink in moderation with friends? Go have fun at a bar, or buy some beer and have a barbecue at home.
Want to get shitfaced? Stay home.
Don't risk getting arrested for Public Intoxication, don't risk getting taken advantage of(sexually, monetarily, or otherwise), and of course DUI's look bad on your record.
I don't care about "victim blaming" but getting shitfaced in public or further then half a mile from your house is just asking for dumbshit to happen.
As I said above, precautions are always important. The problem is when people rely on precautions alone, as if it's some sort of deterrent against rape happening.
Throughout the West, the conversation steers from "rape and rape culture is horrible, let's do something about it" to "rape could be preventable if women did x, y, or z." Of course, if you go to a bar or club with a bunch of friends, each of your friends are probably going to watch your back. Of course, not having someone watch out for you increases your chance of being preyed on. The problem arises when, for some reason, not doing these things makes the victim at fault for whatever happened.
I know you're saying that the act isn't the victim's fault, it's still the rapist. But when you then make claims like "[they're] to blame for not anticipating it, for making it more likely to happen" it still becomes a discussion where the victim is, in some way, responsible for the act. The language suggests that the crime is brought on by two people at fault - the rapist for raping, and the victim for making poor decisions. It's like arguing a little kid increased the likelihood of his kidnapping, because he/she strayed from Mom for too long at the grocery store. It creates an environment where the discussion then moves from "Who is responsible?" to, "To what extent is the victim responsible?" in society. Which is not the sort of discussion that's helpful nor beneficial.
I know what you're trying to say is that precaution is important and that a victim needs to be careful. The problem arises when you then claim that the victim contributes, in some way, to their sense of danger. That sort of mindset acts as a justification for other statements which are misogynistic and oppressive, such as "dressing like a slut is asking for it," "if a girl is a flirt she never says no," "women are so unsafe they should just stay home," etc.
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;41422534][I]Strawman argument: The poster.[/I]
These particular cases of rape accusations are pretty goddamn rare, it's not like some social epidemic. Prosecutions are done on a case by case basis based on the circumstances.[/QUOTE]
Glad a girl can never lie about me even getting close to them.
All I'd have to say in court is that I study IT Engineering and they would clear me of all charges. Because those of us who study engineering never meet any girls, at least those of us in IT.
I'm just saying that ignoring conceivable danger is stupid and increases the chance of getting hurt. And everybody knows that there are guys at bars just waiting for an opportunity to get laid and will do it even against women's will. So as long as they exist, smart thing to do is to take precautions.
And I don't see not taking precautions thus making it more likely that other people will hurt you as being even partially responsible for the act itself. It's the other person hurting you in one way or another and the fault for that is only on them.
If the danger is conceivable and you can take precautions you are controlling to some extend your sense of danger, no?
[QUOTE]Don't be [B]THAT [/B]girl[/QUOTE]
Who is [B]THAT [/B]girl, and why isn't she allowed to call non-consensual sex rape?
This is right though, literally NOTHING that poster says is wrong.
If you go to bed with a guy willingly, that was consent. You can't withdraw consent after sex, it's already been done.
I think a statistic said that 40 odd percent of all reported campus rapes are proven to be false before they even go to a legal proceeding, and they are done as a form of revenge, though I don't know where I heard this.
[editline]12th July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Raidyr;41429601]Who is [B]THAT [/B]girl, and why isn't she allowed to call non-consensual sex rape?[/QUOTE]
If you read the fucking poster it says "regret a one night stand", which means that obviously it was consensual.
[QUOTE=TAU!;41422401]If these dipshits want people to take them seriously, then they first need to take themselves seriously. And by that, I mean they need to cut the crap and just do something productive with their lives.[/QUOTE]
Are you talking about FEMEN?
I can't believe this has gone on this long.
[b]IF YOU INTENTIONALLY/WILLINGLY CONSUMED ANYTHING THAT MADE YOU HIGH, DRUNK, OR HORNY, YOUR MISTAKES ARE YOUR'S AND YOUR'S ALONE.[/b]
That said, it's common courtesy not to hit on someone who is drunk. Just sayin'.
I have mixed feelings on this.
The whole women lying about rape thing is a sensitive subject.
But the guys they surveyed seem like total ass hats.
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;41429265]My only belief is this: Want to drink in moderation with friends? Go have fun at a bar, or buy some beer and have a barbecue at home.
Want to get shitfaced? Stay home.
Don't risk getting arrested for Public Intoxication, don't risk getting taken advantage of(sexually, monetarily, or otherwise), and of course DUI's look bad on your record.
I don't care about "victim blaming" but getting shitfaced in public or further then half a mile from your house is just asking for dumbshit to happen.[/QUOTE]
What a stupid argument.
Getting drunk and doing something illegal is something [b]you do.[/b]
Getting raped is something [b]done to you.[/b]
[QUOTE=Zeke129;41429742]What a stupid argument.
Getting drunk and doing something illegal is something [b]you do.[/b]
Getting raped is something [b]done to you.[/b][/QUOTE]
The problem is that if a woman has consumed any quantity of alcohol and has sex, people can call that rape, which it is not.
If they are passed out, then it is rape. But if you get drunk and have sex, it is not. Same with if you get drunk and shoot someone or drive and hit someone and kill them, it's your fault because you put it in your body (once again, this is excluding passed-out, because you are, well, passed out.)
[QUOTE=katbug;41429834]But if you get drunk and have sex, it is not. Same with if you get drunk and shoot someone or drive and hit someone and kill them, it's your fault because you put it in your body (once again, this is excluding passed-out, because you are, well, passed out.)[/QUOTE]
did you totally ignore zeke's post??
[QUOTE=Zeke129;41429742]What a stupid argument.
Getting drunk and doing something illegal is something [b]you do.[/b]
Getting raped is something [b]done to you.[/b][/QUOTE]
And I agree with both statements.
All I'm preaching is common-sense should be used to avoid both things in the first place.
[QUOTE=Hellduck;41429844]did you totally ignore zeke's post??[/QUOTE]
Did you totally ignore mine?
I'm saying that people call consensual sex while drunk rape.
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;41429265]but getting shitfaced in public or further then half a mile from your house is just asking for dumbshit to happen.[/QUOTE]
lmao
[QUOTE=NoDachi;41429936]lmao[/QUOTE]
Are you saying that getting shitfaced drunk is a good idea?
I could just feel the fedora in that post
[QUOTE=NoDachi;41430100]I could just feel the fedora in that post[/QUOTE]
Is your only argument against these people "lolol neckbeard fedora etc."
Getting shitfaced drunk somewhere random IS asking for trouble. My friend got hit by a car after he got drunk as hell and wandered out in to traffic. It's simply not a fucking smart thing to do.
There's victim blaming, and then there's the opposite, which you seem to cling on to. You simply cannot defend someone getting totally trashed as a wise choice.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;41430100]I could just feel the fedora in that post[/QUOTE]
it's calling to me.
i can hear it in the wind.
"misandryyy..."
[QUOTE=katbug;41429926]Did you totally ignore mine?
I'm saying that people call consensual sex while drunk rape.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, you know why that is? It's because you're in no state to legally consent.
why is everyone so goddamn sensitive to rape now days anyways? like yeah i wouldn't wanna have sex with a really ugly fat chick for example but if she held a gun to me and raped me i wouldn't really fucking care in the long run
In Aristotle's [I]Ethics[/I] he actually argues that people who commit crimes/do illegal things while drunk should be punished more than someone who isn't drunk because they were dumb enough to put themselves in a situation where they couldn't control themselves.
This just shows how far our society has moved from personal responsibility to the idea that everyone is a victim. Whether right or wrong, it is a notable social phenomena.
[QUOTE=Faz;41430171]why is everyone so goddamn sensitive to rape now days anyways? like yeah i wouldn't wanna have sex with a really ugly fat chick for example but if she held a gun to me and raped me i wouldn't really fucking care in the long run[/QUOTE]
aren't you the same kid that said 'fuck the police i have no respect for police fuck em all yeah guys 420 smoke ganja light it up'
[QUOTE=Aspen;41430186]aren't you the same kid that said 'fuck the police i have no respect for police fuck em all yeah guys 420 smoke ganja light it up'[/QUOTE]
There's no point even talking to him, he's clearly just a fucking tool.
[editline]12th July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;41430170]Yeah, you know why that is? It's because you're in no state to legally consent.[/QUOTE]
As long as you put yourself in that position, you are in EVERY state to legally consent.
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