• Unsurprisingly, Donald Trump supports waterboarding and will move to end it's "status as a war crime
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[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49693645]it's actually really easy to fuck up pouring water over a cloth into a guys face until he dies it's really easy[/QUOTE] Actually no, the guy who fucked up was the one who got caught and being tortured. [SP]Im kidding please dont kill me. Torture doesnt work and is ineffective[/SP]
The real victims here are the CIA They were FORCED to torture people! They are the real victims here! Just think of the suffering they go through having to torture for this great nation!
[QUOTE=J!NX;49694386]tbh reading through it wrystan you really are a disgrace to the entirety of American philosophy you are exactly the type of person the founding fathers, and the US constitution, wants to stop.[/QUOTE] Explain the entirety of American philosophy to me please. [editline]7th February 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Phycosymo;49694157]An insigna of a facist, orwellian, inhuman empire with an american flag pattern, couldn't possibly be a more fitting avatar.[/QUOTE] I like the aesthetic ok?
[QUOTE=wystan;49693541]I agree, but doesn't mean things can't be improved. Alright y'all I legit have to go to work now, which funny enough is a nice public job dependent on me being nice, sociable, and charismatic, which I do quite well. I've enjoyed this conversation and bought some lovely variety to a normal SH thread, we can continue this later maybe. Enjoy the superbowl or whatever :)[/QUOTE] 'Look at me im charismatic' lmfao this guy
[QUOTE=wystan;49695391] I like the aesthetic ok?[/QUOTE] Sounds like you like more than the aesthetic tbh [quote]Explain the entirety of American philosophy to me please.[/quote] It essentially goes like this: Freedom = good, the government getting too powerful = bad, a government should protect its citizens rights Secret torture facilities go against all of those.
[QUOTE=phygon;49695794]Sounds like you like more than the aesthetic tbh It essentially goes like this: Freedom = good, the government getting too powerful = bad, a government should protect its citizens rights Secret torture facilities go against all of those.[/QUOTE] This torture doesn't apply to American citizens.
[QUOTE=wystan;49695822]This torture doesn't apply to American citizens.[/QUOTE] It does to the ones who get on the government's bad side.
[QUOTE=wystan;49695822]This torture doesn't apply to American citizens.[/QUOTE] The issue being that the government has in the past and is probably currently doing exactly that. Plus, it doesn't matter if someone is a citizen or not because this country was largely founded on the idea of [I]natural[/I] rights, aka rights that literally every human has. Supporting torture of people, even non-citizens, goes against the ideals this country was founded on. [editline]8th February 2016[/editline] Even more so if citizens aren't told about it/lied to about it.
[QUOTE=phygon;49695848]The issue being that the government has in the past and is probably currently doing exactly that. Plus, it doesn't matter if someone is a citizen or not because this country was largely founded on the idea of [I]natural[/I] rights, aka rights that literally every human has. Supporting torture of people, even non-citizens, goes against the ideals this country was founded on. [editline]8th February 2016[/editline] Even more so if citizens aren't told about it/lied to about it.[/QUOTE] So do you think the bill of rights should apply to these people? The 8th amendment protects Americans. And torture done properly shouldn't kill people.
[QUOTE=wystan;49695869]So do you think the bill of rights should apply to these people?[/QUOTE] I feel like we have a duty to uphold all people's natural rights whenever possible, and not stoop to the level of those who we call monsters for the exact same transgressions.
If you're willing to be a torturer and do what your enemy does what separates you from them? Geography. Why are you so ready to hurt others without an effective reason over nothing but geography when you share their views on things like that? Like I said, all it would take is for you to born elsewhere, and you'd torture Americans for them. You are a scary person for not realizing this
wystan is the reason they made the geneva convention [editline]8th February 2016[/editline] also it should be clear that there's some kind of flaw in your logic when there's eight pages of thread filled exclusively with people pointing out fallacies in your argument
[QUOTE=LtKyle2;49691179]If people actually took the time to look at his past, look at what hes said in the past that he'd probably run as a Democrat and the Republicans are "too crazy for him". He supports universal healthcare, he's backed Hillary Clinton when she was secretary of state, he is friends with Bill Clinton. He has supported eminent domain and big government, completely contrary to what he says in the debates and his rallies. He's just appealing to the very loud demographic of the GOP base that want a rich, loud, tough guy who won't take no shit and says it like it is and does what it takes to get the job done. Anyone who believes him when he says the inane shit that he says like banning muslims or waterboarding buy into this media bullshit. He's pulling a fast one on the GOP voters and the establishment sees that and is terrified because he is an outsider to them. He's the republican equivalent of Hillary Clinton who will say anything to get a vote.[/QUOTE] Wasnt that quote proven to be fake?
[QUOTE=wystan;49695391]Explain the entirety of American philosophy to me please. [editline]7th February 2016[/editline] I like the aesthetic ok?[/QUOTE] the whole point of the court system, for example, is to prevent [B]EVERYONE[/B] from getting an unfair shake. Non-civilians included. Everyone is meant to be given basic human rights, and torturing people sure as hell is a human rights abuse, terrorist or not. Torture just happens to be one of those things that courts don't decide on using, because it never goes through it. Even though you can only torture someone who is made harmless by being captured and put into a cell, prisoners of war wouldn't get a trial at all. Judges don't decide on whether or not they should use torture on someone because it's the type of thing you slip under the table and shut up about. No sane judge would end a trial with the punishment of being tortured.
[QUOTE=wystan;49695869]And torture done properly shouldn't kill people.[/QUOTE] Torture done properly, yes. But that's like saying "proper police shouldn't kill unarmed civilians". We're humans, and if humans have the ability to end others' lives if they don't do their jobs absolutely perfectly, there's no reason that job should even exist when there are [I]perfectly acceptable and far more ethical options than hurting someone until they're [B]almost[/B] dead[/I], especially when it's very hard to ensure that they [I]don't[/I] die but then again, they're all probably terrorists and criminals anyway, right? It's that line of thinking that led to Abu Ghraib. [editline]8th February 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=wystan;49695391]Explain the entirety of American philosophy to me please.[/QUOTE] I think they summed it up pretty well in the first sentence of their first document ever: [QUOTE]We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.[/QUOTE] Note that it says "[I]all[/I] men", not "all men except those who don't like us"
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49696202]If you're willing to be a torturer and do what your enemy does what separates you from them? Geography. Why are you so ready to hurt others without an effective reason over nothing but geography when you share their views on things like that? Like I said, all it would take is for you to born elsewhere, and you'd torture Americans for them. You are a scary person for not realizing this[/QUOTE] My reasoning is that they are determined to kill me and my way of life. But if we want to take the stance of being better than them by the virtue of simply being American, that I can get behind. [editline]8th February 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=J!NX;49696282]the whole point of the court system, for example, is to prevent [B]EVERYONE[/B] from getting an unfair shake. Non-civilians included. Everyone is meant to be given basic human rights, and torturing people sure as hell is a human rights abuse, terrorist or not. Torture just happens to be one of those things that courts don't decide on using, because it never goes through it. Even though you can only torture someone who is made harmless by being captured and put into a cell, prisoners of war wouldn't get a trial at all. Judges don't decide on whether or not they should use torture on someone because it's the type of thing you slip under the table and shut up about. No sane judge would end a trial with the punishment of being tortured.[/QUOTE] But why? I find that arguing torture on principle more fascinating. Killing others isn't morally reprehensible, harming others isn't, what's the line? I don't condone sadism, the difference between that and torture is torture has a purpose.
[QUOTE=wystan;49696577]My reasoning is that they are determined to kill me and my way of life. But if we want to take the stance of being better than them by the virtue of simply being American, that I can get behind.[/QUOTE] But the thing is, we currently torture [I]suspected[/I] terrorists. Suspected enemies. More than that, torture has been proven to be ineffective at retrieving information that is actually true. Most people aren't disagreeing with the more moderate of your points, that during a time of war we should be permitted to take necessary actions... But this is not a time of war, and our homeland is not threatened. Moreover, I (and others) are curious as to what you meant when you mentioned "re-education" as a valid outcome of torture.
[QUOTE=phygon;49696587]But the thing is, we currently torture [I]suspected[/I] terrorists. Suspected enemies. More than that, torture has been proven to be ineffective at retrieving information that is actually true. Most people aren't disagreeing with the more moderate of your points, that during a time of war we should be permitted to take necessary actions... But this is not a time of war, and our homeland is not threatened. Moreover, I (and others) are curious as to what you meant when you mentioned "re-education" as a valid outcome of torture.[/QUOTE] I think there is certainly an argument to be made about feeling if our homeland is threatened or not. I don't think we should torture suspected terrorists no, like I said previously I would want CIA to be sure who they capture and torture, otherwise, yea it's a waste. About the re-education bit, I don't personally think torture is the best way or certainly the first option towards changing someone's views and don't support torture for that particular reason, I was just simply asked to give other uses for it, I won't argue that we should use torture for re-educating people.
[QUOTE=J!NX;49693877]Jokes on you, trump was only pretending to be retarded[/QUOTE] I feel used
Trump is the perfect example of a clueless white trash Facebook-politician. It's like he doesn't want a slight chance
[QUOTE=Killuah;49693845]So it's pretty much "i was trolling you all along" just for presidential campaign of the most powerful and rich nation to ever exist on planet earth?[/QUOTE] pretty much yeah... I get the feeling he's discovered that the solution to the primary/general format is that he can say whatever he needs to to secure the primary and once nominated can go say the complete opposite for the general and there's absolutely nothing anyone can do about it as far as I can tell there's absolutely nothing obligating him to do what he says in either election
[QUOTE=Phycosymo;49694157]An insigna of a facist, orwellian, inhuman empire with an american flag pattern, couldn't possibly be a more fitting avatar.[/QUOTE] that's exactly what i was thinking as i read through this entire thread wystan i really think that poster that said a few pages back that you're basing your opinions on emotion rather than logic was spot on i can really appreciate the sentiment of the whole "muh countrymen" thing, but your arguments are so full of holes and you've started to outright ignore several valid points against you i would really like to hear what you have to say on the whole "if you were born in the middle east you'd be fighting for ISIL saying the exact same shit" because tbh that's pretty chilling and from how i see it not too inaccurate oops like five hours late i hope ya'll aint sick of this by now
[QUOTE=wystan;49696577]My reasoning is that they are determined to kill me and my way of life. [/QUOTE] Nevermind the fact that this is also exactly how hostile fighters justify [I]their[/I] horrifying violence.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;49697808]Nevermind the fact that this is also exactly how hostile fighters justify [I]their[/I] horrifying violence.[/QUOTE] and not only that but unless he is/was in the military or at personal risk from terrorism, his argument actually [I]favors insurgents in direct conflict with US forces more than it does him.[/I] i mean at least they're getting bombed and shot at more frequently than he is. notice how even metaphorically "killing his way of life" is grounds for torture? ISIS are pretty sure they have that [I]and[/I] they're regularly being strafed by jet fighters. under his own definition he has less of a leg to stand on than the ethnic cleansers. this is amazing.
[QUOTE=wystan;49696577]I don't condone sadism, the difference between that and torture is torture has a purpose.[/QUOTE] It only has a purpose when you're torturing the right people, and history has proven numerous times that we often torture the wrong people more than we do the right people.
Aside from the obvious ethical issues, torture's ineffective. History has proven time and time again that coerced confessions will, more likely than not, yield results even without involving torture. Hell, [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Stephanie_Crowe"]read about the murder of Stephanie Crow if you don't believe me[/URL].
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;49697808]Nevermind the fact that this is also exactly how hostile fighters justify [I]their[/I] horrifying violence.[/QUOTE] Who cares. Moral equivalence is just an exercise in liberal intellectual masturbation when we're talking about the real world. You know what separates me and my in group from them? It's more than just geography, it's interests. What interest do I have in sacrificing something real for something abstract? What do I gain besides brownie points for confronting this 'truth' about the nature of conflict? Who is so privileged they are idle enough to tackle these questions and lecture the average man about them?
[QUOTE=Conscript;49698699]Who cares. Moral equivalence is just an exercise in liberal intellectual masturbation when we're talking about the real world. You know what separates me and my in group from them? It's more than just geography, it's interests. What interest do I have in sacrificing something real for something abstract? What do I gain besides brownie points for confronting this 'truth' about the nature of conflict? Who is so privileged they are idle enough to tackle these questions and lecture the average man about them?[/QUOTE] It's funny how you talk about 'intellectual masturbation' then immediately launch into a pretentious polemic. What's your actual opinion on torture?
[QUOTE=Conscript;49698699]Who cares. Moral equivalence is just an exercise in liberal intellectual masturbation when we're talking about the real world. You know what separates me and my in group from them? It's more than just geography, it's interests. What interest do I have in sacrificing something real for something abstract? What do I gain besides brownie points for confronting this 'truth' about the nature of conflict? Who is so privileged they are idle enough to tackle these questions and lecture the average man about them?[/QUOTE] What's unappealing about the knowledge that you're not a horrible person? I mean, if you want me to tell you about the political advantages I could. We could talk about how standing up for people is a fantastic way to get support and one of the best deterrents to terrorism. How it factors into your population's mental health to know your government isn't making questionable decisions, and thus how it factors into productivity and the aforementioned support - both at home and internationally, since, say, a populist government like Brazil with a president that vehemently opposed the government in her early years would have a hard time publicly supporting immoral practices. But when you're disregarding morals as nothing but abstract concepts, that's not what it boils down to, is it?
The people who are pro-torture aren't the ones who have to torture a man. Why would they worry about how moral or immoral it is? they're free from consequence if someone innocent is tortured alive and then killed because it goes bad. All they have to do is say that "its just an unfortunate side of it" to brush it off and act like they are empathetic of people, and they can just pretend like they are free from any wrong doing. After all, they aren't the ones who have to do it. They're free of consequence. It's only bad when you're the one who has to deal with the consequence, after all. Just tell yourself that you're a good person and its true.
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