Unsurprisingly, Donald Trump supports waterboarding and will move to end it's "status as a war crime
455 replies, posted
Let's elect a sadist as president! He's... he's, uhh... yeah, I can't think of a good reason to elect him.
This is scary. If he wins, I'm leaving.
[QUOTE=Intoxicated Spy;49691351]You know how nothing really passed in congress because of the republicans? Now imagine that with pretty much that with both parties.[/QUOTE]
You think it's just the Republicans? It's both. Neither side wants to get together and get something done. If it was a Republican president with a Democrat congress we'd see the exact same scenario play out.
[QUOTE=Shakma;49691426]Democracy. One person, one vote, what a piss ass system.
It saying itself, a vote from a idiot is equally valued as a vote from Einstein.
Fuck that.[/QUOTE]
The election process is generally pretty terrible, but that isn't the reason why. Giving more power to those measured as being more intelligent via whatever flawed metric is used is a terrible idea. We've already seen that the rich throw money at elections to benefit themselves, weighting votes would not lead to the best candidate for everyone, but rather the best candidate for those with those high metrics. And no, it's unlikely that those would overlap for the most part because money.
Further, do you really think most of the people who would vote for Trump support everything he stands for? Do you really think most people who support the Republicans hate gay people, oppose abortions, etc..? Do you really think that most people who support the Democrats wants guns to be banned and whatever else the Democrats do that's unpopular?
The election process forces people to pick between the "lesser" evil the vast majority of the time (because voting for the candidate who supports most of your views is just "wasting a vote"), which really means voting for the candidate who has the view they agree with on whatever political point (or a small set thereof) they view to be most important.
I would reason most people support Trump not because he wants to do all of these terrible things, but because they see someone who isn't just another candidate and someone who isn't in the pocket of big business. People focus on the few points that are most important to them and ignore the rest.
Trump is quite smart really, because he's saying all of this extremist shit gaining the fringe votes and, if he was elected, he could try to pass some of this stuff and just blame congress (who hasn't been doing much for a while now) for not passing it.
[QUOTE=LtKyle2;49691179]If people actually took the time to look at his past, look at what hes said in the past that he'd probably run as a Democrat and the Republicans are "too crazy for him". He supports universal healthcare, he's backed Hillary Clinton when she was secretary of state, he is friends with Bill Clinton. He has supported eminent domain and big government, completely contrary to what he says in the debates and his rallies.
He's just appealing to the very loud demographic of the GOP base that want a rich, loud, tough guy who won't take no shit and says it like it is and does what it takes to get the job done. Anyone who believes him when he says the inane shit that he says like banning muslims or waterboarding buy into this media bullshit. He's pulling a fast one on the GOP voters and the establishment sees that and is terrified because he is an outsider to them. He's the republican equivalent of Hillary Clinton who will say anything to get a vote.[/QUOTE]
i dont get why this leads you to assume that it's all a grand scheme rather than that he's just more conservative on some issues?
sorry but i'm not putting my chips on a guy because of the off chance that he's actually just pretending to be a horrible person
[QUOTE=DaMastez;49691575]The election process is generally pretty terrible, but that isn't the reason why. Giving more power to those measured as being more intelligent via whatever flawed metric is used is a terrible idea. We've already seen that the rich throw money at elections to benefit themselves, weighting votes would not lead to the best candidate for everyone, but rather the best candidate for those with those high metrics. And no, it's unlikely that those would overlap for the most part because money.
Further, do you really think most of the people who would vote for Trump support everything he stands for? Do you really think most people who support the Republicans hate gay people, oppose abortions, etc..? Do you really think that most people who support the Democrats wants guns to be banned and whatever else the Democrats do that's unpopular?
The election process forces people to pick between the "lesser" evil the vast majority of the time (because voting for the candidate who supports most of your views is just "wasting a vote"), which really means voting for the candidate who has the view they agree with on whatever political point (or a small set thereof) they view to be most important.
I would reason most people support Trump not because he wants to do all of these terrible things, but because they see someone who isn't just another candidate and someone who isn't in the pocket of big business. People focus on the few points that are most important to them and ignore the rest.
Trump is quite smart really, because he's saying all of this extremist shit gaining the fringe votes and, if he was elected, he could try to pass some of this stuff and just blame congress (who hasn't been doing much for a while now) for not passing it.[/QUOTE]
Campaign finance reform is the number one issue to me. I don't not care even if he were make it mandatory for everyone to inject themselves with the black plague. Just as long the reform gets done where the system isn't corrupt again, I'm going vote for him.
If Sanders doesnt get the nomination
I rather it be Sanders.
[QUOTE=Shakma;49691426]Democracy. One person, one vote, what a piss ass system.
It saying itself, a vote from a idiot is equally valued as a vote from Einstein.
Fuck that.[/QUOTE]
Only the Ben Carsens of the world should vote.
What if Trump is actually secretly more liberal than Bernie and it's all a big ruse to get either himself or Bernie in the office
[QUOTE=Murkrow;49692129]What if Trump is actually secretly more liberal than Bernie and it's all a big ruse to get either himself or Bernie in the office[/QUOTE]
On many issues he is probably the most liberal of the GOP candidates.
[QUOTE=Murkrow;49692129]What if Trump is actually secretly more liberal than Bernie and it's all a big ruse to get either himself or Bernie in the office[/QUOTE]
I made this post in another Trump thread, but part of me really badly wants to see that if he wins he stands there ready to take the pledge and then turns around and screams "What is WRONG with all of you?!" then walks off the stage and cues in Bernie.
[QUOTE=Shakma;49691426]Democracy. One person, one vote, what a piss ass system.
It saying itself, a vote from a idiot is equally valued as a vote from Einstein.
Fuck that.[/QUOTE]
How else?
If our enemies are willing to torture us, why should we not extend the same courtesy? No point in trying to take this moral high ground. I don't see an issue with torture as long as we are aware that our enemies will treat us the same. Torture works, given the one being tortured actually knows the information desired, otherwise it doesn't and the one being tortured will just say whatever to get a break.
[QUOTE=wystan;49692397]If our enemies are willing to torture us, why should we not extend the same courtesy? No point in trying to take this moral high ground. I don't see an issue with torture as long as we are aware that our enemies will treat us the same. Torture works, given the one being tortured actually knows the information desired, otherwise it doesn't and the one being tortured will just say whatever to get a break.[/QUOTE]
Okay I have to ask
Why do you think torture works?
The CIA itself said it doesn't work, and they never got useful information at a rate that they wouldn't get from just doing better intel work
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49692412]Okay I have to ask
Why do you think torture works?
The CIA itself said it doesn't work, and they never got useful information at a rate that they wouldn't get from just doing better intel work[/QUOTE]
Pretty clear that he doesn't give a damn about it working. He just wants the nations enemies to be tortured.
[QUOTE=wystan;49692397]If our enemies are willing to torture us, why should we not extend the same courtesy? No point in trying to take this moral high ground. I don't see an issue with torture as long as we are aware that our enemies will treat us the same. Torture works, given the one being tortured actually knows the information desired, otherwise it doesn't and the one being tortured will just say whatever to get a break.[/QUOTE]
What the fuck
I thought of trying to write a counter argument to this post but "what the fuck" is all it deserves
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49692412]Okay I have to ask
Why do you think torture works?
The CIA itself said it doesn't work, and they never got useful information at a rate that they wouldn't get from just doing better intel work[/QUOTE]
I'd be hesitant to take anything the CIA says at face value. But given the torturee knows the desired information, torture has a very high success rate. I would just want us to be smart and careful with who we choose to torture, because otherwise yea it's wasting time, torturing a low-level courier or militant won't give us much.
[QUOTE=wystan;49692397]Torture works, given the one being tortured actually knows the information desired, otherwise it doesn't and the one being tortured will just say whatever to get a break.[/QUOTE]
"torture works, except for all those times where it doesn't and could actually give us false information and set us back"
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;49692421]Pretty clear that he doesn't give a damn about it working. He just wants the nations enemies to be tortured.[/QUOTE]
I have absolutely no sympathy for those who want to kill fellow Americans.
[QUOTE=Cone;49692468]"torture works, except for all those times where it doesn't and could actually give us false information and set us back"[/QUOTE]
Pretty sure this is always kept in mind during torture, not like we as humans haven't been torturing since forever.
[QUOTE=wystan;49692445]I'd be hesitant to take anything the CIA says at face value. But given the torturee knows the desired information, torture has a very high success rate. I would just want us to be smart and careful with who we choose to torture, because otherwise yea it's wasting time, torturing a low-level courier or militant won't give us much.[/QUOTE]
so you just "know" that torture works, even though the people who do the torturing are telling you "Yeah, not so much, people will literally tell you anything you want to stop being hurt".
How does torture have a very high success rate in the real world, when we know it doesn't actually lead to valuable information, because the torturers are saying "fuck man, this isn't helping us".
[editline]7th February 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=wystan;49692476]I have absolutely no sympathy for those who want to kill fellow Americans.
Pretty sure this is always kept in mind during torture, not like we as humans haven't been torturing since forever.[/QUOTE]
Yes, and since forever, we've known for a fact, that people will [B]say, do, or think of anything you want to hear, to stop being hurt[/B]. I know that for a fact. People will lie to stop being hurt. And you're sitting here saying "No one would lie while being hurt, except when they would, but torture always works!"
your view isn't even self consistent how can you actually think like this when your views don't even support each other.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49692509]so you just "know" that torture works, even though the people who do the torturing are telling you "Yeah, not so much, people will literally tell you anything you want to stop being hurt".
How does torture have a very high success rate in the real world, when we know it doesn't actually lead to valuable information, because the torturers are saying "fuck man, this isn't helping us".[/QUOTE]
Think about how unwilling any government would be to admit they got good information for torture considering the divisive nature of the practice. Also let's not forget torture is effective in other ways outside of just acquiring information. Also, I still don't understand why would we should treat these people with respect or humanity, they literally just want to civilians. Now the situations were the CIA or whatever have captured an innocent person and had them torture, yes that is deplorable, but I really don't understand the argument against torture, it's not like our enemies are having this debate.
[editline]7th February 2016[/editline]
[quote]Yes, and since forever, we've known for a fact, that people will [B]say, do, or think of anything you want to hear, to stop being hurt[/B]. I know that for a fact. People will lie to stop being hurt. And you're sitting here saying "No one would lie while being hurt, except when they would, but torture always works!"
your view isn't even self consistent how can you actually think like this when your views don't even support each other.[/quote]
I'm not doubting people will say whatever to stop being hurt, but given they actually know what we want to know, they will break, because should they false information and it doesn't pan out, they'll just be tortured more, and knowing that they can permanently (or at least the false hope) end the torture, you best believe they'll give accurate information.
What happens if the person is actually right and doesn't know shit but his captors don't believe him? Good job, you're torturing someone who's completely innocent for info he doesn't have. That makes you just as bad as any terrorist.
Besides, torture doesn't work. Period.
[QUOTE=GrizzlyBear;49692552]What happens if the person is actually right and doesn't know shit but his captors don't believe him? Good job, you're torturing someone who's completely innocent for info he doesn't have. That makes you just as bad as any terrorist.
Besides, torture doesn't work. Period.[/QUOTE]
If they are in a situation were they are being tortured, it is most likely they aren't innocent to begin with. But, like I said earlier, the instances were someone COMPLETELY innocent with no ties to terrorist organizations, that is truly terrible and should not happen again.
[QUOTE=wystan;49692582]If they are in a situation were they are being tortured, it is most likely they aren't innocent to begin with. But, like I said earlier, [B]the instances were someone COMPLETELY innocent with no ties to terrorist organizations, that is truly terrible and should not happen again.[/B][/QUOTE]
The only way to be sure it won't ever happen again is to not fucking torture people
[QUOTE=Starlight 456;49692600]The only way to be sure it won't ever happen again is to not fucking torture people[/QUOTE]
With that argument we should stop all military action ever because of collateral damage.
[QUOTE=Starlight 456;49692600]The only way to be sure it won't ever happen again is to not fucking torture people[/QUOTE]
People in favor of torture usually don't even want trials for people in Guantanamo. They probably don't care about innocent foreigners getting tortured.
[QUOTE=wystan;49692476]Pretty sure this is always kept in mind during torture, not like we as humans haven't been torturing since forever.[/QUOTE]
i mean hey, the Spanish Inquisition mighta sucked, but you can't say we didn't get some solid life experience out of the whole deal!
[IMG]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/Torquemada.jpg[/IMG]
this dude knows what i'm talking about. don't you stop chasing your non-Semitic star, Major Tom.
(he lets me call him that because we're really good friends)
[QUOTE=RichyZ;49692612]military action is often necessary to stop uncontrolled foreign aggression, torture does nothing to help the cause[/QUOTE]
Well that's another benefit of torture, it can serve as a deterrent of foreign aggression, I mentioned it earlier, torture has more uses outside getting information.
[QUOTE=wystan;49692582][B]If they are in a situation were they are being tortured, it is most likely they aren't innocent to begin with.[/B] But, like I said earlier, the instances were someone COMPLETELY innocent with no ties to terrorist organizations, that is truly terrible and should not happen again.[/QUOTE]
Guilty until proven innocent.
Putting aside your absolute lack of anything resembling ethics or morality, from a purely practical, utilitarian standpoint torture isn't good at extracting information. People who tortured people as their jobs have said this before. I don't know what makes you an expert on interrogation.
[editline]7th February 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=wystan;49692627]Well that's another benefit of torture, it can serve as a deterrent of foreign aggression, I mentioned it earlier, torture has more uses outside getting information.[/QUOTE]
Torturing people because they might know something does as much good fighting terror or foreign aggression as dropping hellfire missiles on civilians. It does the exact opposite of the thing you think it does and it's amazing that in 2016 after all the US government has done in the past 14 years of war that people still think this way.
[QUOTE=wystan;49692627]Well that's another benefit of torture, it can serve as a deterrent of foreign aggression, I mentioned it earlier, torture has more uses outside getting information.[/QUOTE]
like fulfilling pointless revenge fantasies for vindictive pricks like trump
[QUOTE=wystan;49692627]Well that's another benefit of torture, it can serve as a deterrent of foreign aggression, I mentioned it earlier, torture has more uses outside getting information.[/QUOTE]
Not really. All it means is the enemy won't give up ever if they believe they face torture and terrible living conditions. If you treat POWs well regardless of allegiance it becomes way more tempting to surrender when pushed into life or death situations. It also encourages cooperation.
[QUOTE=wystan;49692605]With that argument we should stop all military action ever because of collateral damage.[/QUOTE]
Well, yes. It really would be nice if everyone stopped fighting and just got along. Too bad thats not how the world works.
There are some groups out there with the only realistic counter measure being violence. However, it isnt too much to ask to only use force if absolutely needed. Torture has proven not to work and be of no use to us, so why do it?
The only reason people support things like waterboarding is for ~revenge~.
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