• Unsurprisingly, Donald Trump supports waterboarding and will move to end it's "status as a war crime
    455 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Raidyr;49692631]Guilty until proven innocent. Putting aside your absolute lack of anything resembling ethics or morality, from a purely practical, utilitarian standpoint torture isn't good at extracting information. People who tortured people as their jobs have said this before. I don't know what makes you an expert on interrogation.[/QUOTE] When the one tortured decided to join a anti-west terrorist organization whose primary goal is to kill American, in my view, they no longer deserve to be treated ethnically or morally, I can guarantee you they don't bother with this dilemma. And what makes you or anyone else an expert on interrogation? I'm talking about torture on principle, I want to see other arguments besides "not reliable source of information" (which is still debatable), there is more to torture than that.
[QUOTE=wystan;49692627]Well that's another benefit of torture, it can serve as a deterrent of foreign aggression, I mentioned it earlier, torture has more uses outside getting information.[/QUOTE] Chopping arms off reduces stealing?
[QUOTE=wystan;49692666]When the one tortured decided to join a anti-west terrorist organization whose primary goal is to kill American, in my view, they no longer deserve to be treated ethnically or morally, I can guarantee you they don't bother with this dilemma.[/QUOTE] [B]We aren't them.[/B] [QUOTE=wystan;49692666]And what makes you or anyone else an expert on interrogation? I'm talking about torture on principle, I want to see other arguments besides "not reliable source of information" (which is still debatable), there is more to torture than that.[/QUOTE] I'm not an expert, I'm quoting the experts at the CIA and other intelligence agencies who said it didn't work, giving them inaccurate information at best and misinformation at worst.
[QUOTE=wystan;49692666]what makes you or anyone else an expert on interrogation?[/QUOTE] by anyone else you mean like, people who do interrogations?????? which he just mentioned??? you can't possibly be fucking serious
[QUOTE=wystan;49692666]When the one tortured decided to join a anti-west terrorist organization whose primary goal is to kill American, in my view, they no longer deserve to be treated ethnically or morally, I can guarantee you they don't bother with this dilemma. And what makes you or anyone else an expert on interrogation? I'm talking about torture on principle, I want to see other arguments besides "not reliable source of information" (which is still debatable), there is more to torture than that.[/QUOTE] All you're doing is proving them right. Look up Maajid Nawaz, he was a member of an extremist islamic faction until he got treated with respect and dignity while in prison, now he goes around fighting extremism.
[QUOTE=wystan;49692582]If they are in a situation were they are being tortured, it is most likely they aren't innocent to begin with.[/QUOTE] "if you're in a situation where you're being tortured, you're worth torturing" [thumb]http://res.freestockphotos.biz/pictures/3/3557-illustration-of-a-black-circular-arrow-pv.png[/thumb]
[QUOTE=wystan;49692397]If our enemies are willing to torture us, why should we not extend the same courtesy? No point in trying to take this moral high ground. I don't see an issue with torture as long as we are aware that our enemies will treat us the same. Torture works, given the one being tortured actually knows the information desired, otherwise it doesn't and the one being tortured will just say whatever to get a break.[/QUOTE] Well the issue is, torture just doesn't work. It simply doesn't. More than that though, we have to take the high road. We shouldn't stoop down to the levels of our enemies because our enemies are our enemies for a reason.
[QUOTE=Cone;49692708]"if you're in a situation where you're being tortured, you're worth torturing" [thumb]http://res.freestockphotos.biz/pictures/3/3557-illustration-of-a-black-circular-arrow-pv.png[/thumb][/QUOTE] Yes. If the CIA is doing their job right and correctly, this would be the case, mistakes have been made sure. But you all want to tout the reports and information from the CIA as if they are a reliable truthful source. Answer me this, would ANY organization willfully admit that torture is a good option, even if, for the sake of argument, is the best source ever?
[QUOTE=wystan;49692582]If they are in a situation were they are being tortured, it is most likely they aren't innocent to begin with. [/QUOTE] someone is advocating torture in just the SECOND PAGE this thread is a trainwreck please tell me more about your pro-torture philosophies
[QUOTE=wystan;49692746]Yes. If the CIA is doing their job right and correctly, this would be the case, mistakes have been made sure. But you all want to tout the reports and information from the CIA as if they are a reliable truthful source. Answer me this, would ANY organization willfully admit that torture is a good option, even if, for the sake of argument, is the best source ever?[/QUOTE] Stop digging wystan. You are not going to find light on the other side.
[QUOTE=J!NX;49692747]someone is advocating torture in just the SECOND PAGE this thread is a trainwreck please tell me more about your pro-torture philosophies[/QUOTE] Explain why I should treat someone morally and ethnically who wants to kill you and me, and every other American you know?
[QUOTE=wystan;49692746]Yes. If the CIA is doing their job right and correctly, this would be the case, mistakes have been made sure. But you all want to tout the reports and information from the CIA as if they are a reliable truthful source. Answer me this, would ANY organization willfully admit that torture is a good option, even if, for the sake of argument, is the best source ever?[/QUOTE] mind boggling you don't trust the government with releasing information you trust it whole heartedly with fucking torturing people
[QUOTE=wystan;49692746]Yes. If the CIA is doing their job right and correctly, this would be the case, mistakes have been made sure. But you all want to tout the reports and information from the CIA as if they are a reliable truthful source. Answer me this, would ANY organization willfully admit that torture is a good option, even if, for the sake of argument, is the best source ever?[/QUOTE] Yes I absolutely believe people the administration would say that enhanced interrogation techniques worked and cite specific examples of intelligence gathered from it to be put on display to show the world that it's worth taking the moral low ground to save human lives. Too bad the exact opposite happened. Really at this point it seems like what no one says matters. Torture works and when people say it doesn't, including experts on the subject, you just say they are lying. No real point in continuing this discussion.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;49692762]yeah they would we already have most of the government saying domestic spying is great for the safety of the people, it's not like the us govt are scared to air out dirty laundry[/QUOTE] Espionage and Torture are not the same thing and not comparable, they are both clandestine and that's about it.
[QUOTE=wystan;49692666]When the one tortured decided to join a anti-west terrorist organization whose primary goal is to kill American, in my view, they no longer deserve to be treated ethnically or morally, I can guarantee you they don't bother with this dilemma. And what makes you or anyone else an expert on interrogation? I'm talking about torture on principle, I want to see other arguments besides "not reliable source of information" (which is still debatable), there is more to torture than that.[/QUOTE] I'm going to assume you support the Patriot Act and surveillance on american citizens as well. What makes us better then the pieces of shit running around beheading people is that we don't stoop to their level. We are above such nonsense violence and hold ourselves to higher standards as a society.
[QUOTE=wystan;49692746]Yes. If the CIA is doing their job right and correctly, this would be the case, mistakes have been made sure. But you all want to tout the reports and information from the CIA as if they are a reliable truthful source. Answer me this, would ANY organization willfully admit that torture is a good option, even if, for the sake of argument, is the best source ever?[/QUOTE] Yes, absolutely. If torture worked they'd admit to it and push for letting them torture more because "look, it's saving lives, don't you love america?" Also, no. Your logic is terrible in this case, the law makes mistakes and there's no way to know if the person you're torturing has the info you want or not.
[QUOTE=wystan;49692765]Explain why I should treat someone morally and ethnically who wants to kill you and me, and every other American you know?[/QUOTE] Because even Saddam Hussein, Ted Bundy, some serial rapist, a child molester, a terrorist working for ISIS, and every other terrible person on earth is a human being who deserves to be treated like one, no matter how animalistic or brutal they may be I wouldn't even support torture if it was Hitler, because I'm not a dumbass. I know it doesn't work. And even if you get the answers, you're still making yourself no better than the dude you're waterboarding.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;49692769]Yes I absolutely believe people the administration would say that enhanced interrogation techniques worked and cite specific examples of intelligence gathered from it to be put on display to show the world that it's worth taking the moral low ground to save human lives. Too bad the exact opposite happened. Really at this point it seems like what no one says matters. Torture works and when people say it doesn't, including experts on the subject, you just say they are lying. No real point in continuing this discussion.[/QUOTE] Because the CIA is the most truthful and transparent organization ever right?
[QUOTE=wystan;49692765]Explain why I should treat someone morally and ethnically who wants to kill you and me, and every other American you know?[/QUOTE] Because the only thing separating us from them is their willingness to do those inhuman things. If we do it too, even in response, we are no better. We're a first world country and we have a duty to act like it.
[QUOTE=J!NX;49692778]Because even Saddam Hussein, Ted Bundy, some serial rapist, a child molester, a terrorist working for ISIS, and every other terrible person on earth is a human being who deserves to be treated like one, no matter how animalistic or brutal they may be I wouldn't even support torture if it was Hitler, because I'm not a dumbass. I know it doesn't work.[/QUOTE] They didn't treat their victims like one. Most people on this forum are all about equality and fair treatment right?
[QUOTE=wystan;49692783]Because the CIA is the most truthful and transparent organization ever right?[/QUOTE] Why would they lie and say "Yeah torture doesn't work too well" if that would further the american people's interest in banning all forms of torture, removing gitmo, etc?
[QUOTE=wystan;49692783]Because the CIA is the most truthful and transparent organization ever right?[/QUOTE] [I]AGAIN[/I] you don't trust this organization with releasing information but you trust the [I]exact same agency[/I] with [I]torture[/I]
[QUOTE=wystan;49692791]They didn't treat their victims like one. Most people on this forum are all about equality and fair treatment right?[/QUOTE] Missing the point. But that isn't surprising I guess. And the biggest reason I'm against executions, is because of how many people who were innocent got the chair anyways, or were already in death row. This exact thing can and will happen to torture. How do you know for sure you have the right guy? There's no way you can be sure enough to know it is. How do you know the evidence is falsified or they were framed? or they were in the wrong place at the worst time? There's no way you can 100% be sure enough unless you have DNA, video, and witness evidence, and even then that shouldn't be enough.
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;49692798][I]AGAIN[/I] you don't trust this organization with releasing information but you trust the [I]exact same agency[/I] with [I]torture[/I][/QUOTE] I don't trust the information they release the public. [editline]7th February 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=RichyZ;49692797]why would they lie about something that would pull funding and jobs from them? it's in their interest to say torture works, the fact that they're saying otherwise is pretty telling of how fucked up it is[/QUOTE] Not really, because of the divisive and moral nature of the practice. They operate above what the common people have control of.
[QUOTE=wystan;49692791]They didn't treat their victims like one. Most people on this forum are all about equality and fair treatment right?[/QUOTE] Meaning we treat terrorists (or really just suspected terrorists, you don't even need to see proof before pullin out the ol thumbscrews) the same way we treat enemy combatants from other countries or the worst killers in our societies. Fair and equal treatment does not equal torture.
[QUOTE=wystan;49692746]Yes. If the CIA is doing their job right and correctly, this would be the case, mistakes have been made sure. But you all want to tout the reports and information from the CIA as if they are a reliable truthful source. Answer me this, would ANY organization willfully admit that torture is a good option, even if, for the sake of argument, is the best source ever?[/QUOTE] The CIA has admitted to doing tons of evil shit. They also see nothing wrong with torture.
the thing about torture, is that the psychological impact is far worse than the physical impact you might think because they're not physically damaged they'll just walk it off but only a sociopath would believe this torturing someone who is innocent would only make them into a killer. You'd just be making more terrorists, and you'd give them a perfectly valid reason to do it too.
[QUOTE=wystan;49692812] Not really, because of the divisive and moral nature of the practice. [B]They operate above what the common people have control of.[/B][/QUOTE] Not /really/, when you get down to it. Their statements make it politically advantageous for the president and other people in power to reduce their ability to torture etc... and they have. It's happened. Now we have to take people out of the country to torture them and that makes it a lot harder/more politically dicey to do.
[QUOTE=J!NX;49692808]Missing the point. But that isn't surprising I guess. And the biggest reason I'm against executions, is because of how many people who were innocent got the chair anyways, or were already in death row. This exact thing can and will happen to torture. How do you know for sure you have the right guy? There's no way you can be sure enough to know it is. How do you know the evidence is falsified or they were framed? or they were in the wrong place at the worst time? There's no way you can 100% be sure enough unless you have DNA, video, and witness evidence, and even then that shouldn't be enough.[/QUOTE] It's good to question these things I agree, but I would trust the Central INTELLIGENCE Agency to have their facts straight when doing this, keep it secret of course, information released to the public should always been seen with skepticism. Again, them getting the wrong guy is terrible and embarrassing and I would never want that to happen again.
[QUOTE=wystan;49692834]It's good to question these things I agree, but I would trust the Central INTELLIGENCE Agency to have their facts straight when doing this, keep it secret of course, information released to the public should always been seen with skepticism. Again, [B]them getting the wrong guy is terrible and embarrassing and I would never want that to happen again.[/B][/QUOTE] For all we know this happens frequently and we'll never know it because currently what our government does is it deports suspected terrorists to gitmo and tortures them there without trial.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.