Unsurprisingly, Donald Trump supports waterboarding and will move to end it's "status as a war crime
455 replies, posted
[QUOTE=wystan;49692963]Torture isn't meant to be safe, I've already said there have been innocent victims of torture, I know there are psychological effects of torture.
And here is some quick reading
[url]http://onviolence.com/?e=69[/url][/QUOTE]
great source for arguing with yourself
[quote]1. Torture doesn't work if you have no information to give. Many innocents, swept up at random, are beaten, drowned, and electrocuted all in the hopes of making them talk. The French took the "shotgun approach" if you will. From a coldly rational perspective, this is a waste of resources. From the perspective of a human, this is morally offensive and unjustifiable.
2. Torture doesn't work because it breed ill will. As will discuss later in the week, the French won the battle but lost the war. Though they killed the leaders of the FLN, their methods turned the population against them. Their extreme methods lost the population, as did our early tactics in Iraq.
3. Torture doesn't work because it is morally unjustifiable. A French reporter asks Colonel Matthieu if they torture, and Matthieu says he must to win the war. We say if you have to torture to win, it is a battle not worth winning.[/quote]
[QUOTE=wystan;49692847]Like I said prior, they likely already were terrorists.[B] Also that is the beauty of waterboarding[/B], it's effects aren't permanent.[/QUOTE]
ban this sick filth. why wont somebody think of the children?
Normal civillians have gone through waterboarding in safe locations with people they know are trained in charge of the process and shitloads of medical help nearby them. They uhh...weren't exactly normal for a good fucking while. Tricking your body into thinking it's drowning is not going to do anything good for the mental state of a person. No matter how you try and spin it, there is nothing "beautiful" about a method of torturing somebody for no gain. Torture doesn't work, time for you to admit this and become a normal, rational human being instead of whatever the fuck form you take right now.
[QUOTE=wystan;49692973]I never said that, you are now implying that torture will always give PTSD, don't trying and change the discussion about mental issues and health, [b]when I mentioned the beauty of waterboarding [/b]I meant physically damage, perhaps I was unclear.
Sick ad hominem, way to add to the discussion.[/QUOTE]
I.
Uh.
Wow.
I just saw this. I dont think i can respond with a smart ass comment, this is just.
Jesus fucking christ. Are you a sociopath?
There's no point in arguing with someone who has already assumed guilt and believes that the ends justify the means.
Wave your "I support torturing muslims and I selectively ignore facts" flag high, wystan.
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;49693008]great source for arguing with yourself[/QUOTE]
The first point I had been saying since I started posting in this thread.
[editline]7th February 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;49693025]There's no point in arguing with someone who has already assumed guilt and believes that the ends justify the means.
Wave your "I support torturing muslims and I selectively ignore facts" flag high, wystan.[/QUOTE]
Never said I want to torture muslims.
[editline]7th February 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=hexpunK;49693015]ban this sick filth. why wont somebody think of the children?
Normal civillians have gone through waterboarding in safe locations with people they know are trained in charge of the process and shitloads of medical help nearby them. They uhh...weren't exactly normal for a good fucking while. Tricking your body into thinking it's drowning is not going to do anything good for the mental state of a person. No matter how you try and spin it, there is nothing "beautiful" about a method of torturing somebody for no gain. Torture doesn't work, time for you to admit this and become a normal, rational human being instead of whatever the fuck form you take right now.[/QUOTE]
I just don't extend decency to people who want to kills Americans
[QUOTE=wystan;49693028]Never said I want to torture muslims.[/QUOTE]
who were you referring to here
[QUOTE=wystan;49692666]anti-west terrorist organization[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=wystan;49692746]Yes. If the CIA is doing their job right and correctly, this would be the case, mistakes have been made sure. But you all want to tout the reports and information from the CIA as if they are a reliable truthful source. Answer me this, would ANY organization willfully admit that torture is a good option, even if, for the sake of argument, is the best source ever?[/QUOTE]
Yes. Fucking instantly. They would shout from the fucking rooftops how awesome it is, and how [B]literally hundreds, if not thousands of the actions they've carried out, and been criticized for, are suddenly validated![/B]
You do not do well at this whole thinking ahead thing.
[QUOTE=wystan;49693028]Never said I want to torture muslims.[/QUOTE]
Let's be honest with ourselves and admit that if Trump was elected President and made good on this promise, men of Middle-Eastern descent would be the bulk majority of US government-run torture victims for the next decade unless America moved on to some kind of armed conflict with North Korea by then.
When Trump says he'd end waterboarding's classification as a war crime, it's to use it on "terrorists", i.e. muslims who've been suspected of wrongdoing in Middle East war zones. Trump is appealing to the racists that the rest of the Republican party doesn't want to admit make up the bulk of the support the Tea Party dragged into their camp.
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;49693053]who were you referring to here[/QUOTE]
Militant groups which all happen to be Muslim. But I don't want to torture them for being Muslim, that's stupid. What you're implying is much worse.
[QUOTE=wystan;49693028]I just don't extend decency to people who want to kills Americans[/QUOTE]
you heard it here folks. not inflicting serious mental and physical harm on people is now the minimum requirement for decency.
So I can only assume you're more than happy for murders to be slowly fed into meatgrinders or some other equally wacky bullshit? I mean, they kill more Americans than the "turrists" have by a long shot. But they are also American...hmm...quite a dilemma there.
[QUOTE=wystan;49692582][B]If they are in a situation were they are being tortured, it is most likely they aren't innocent to begin with.[/B] But, like I said earlier, the instances were someone COMPLETELY innocent with no ties to terrorist organizations, that is truly terrible and should not happen again.[/QUOTE]Uhh, weren't there actually a few people in Guantonamo who were innocent but were held there anyway and tortured? And if it doesn't really provide realiable information, why use it especially if innocents could be involved?
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49693065]Yes. Fucking instantly. They would shout from the fucking rooftops how awesome it is, and how [B]literally hundreds, if not thousands of the actions they've carried out, and been criticized for, are suddenly validated![/B]
You do not do well at this whole thinking ahead thing.[/QUOTE]
Yea that makes no sense from a PR point of view, millions of people will never be ok with torture, there is no reason making it public.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49693065]
You do not do well at this whole thinking ahead thing.[/QUOTE]
I think he's trying to justify his closet sadomasochism.
[QUOTE=Killer900;49693081]Uhh, weren't there actually a few people in Guantonamo who were innocent but were held there anyway and tortured? And if it doesn't really provide realiable information, why use it especially if innocents could be involved?[/QUOTE]
Been over this, that shit is deplorable and shouldn't be happening, I won't ever defend that.
[QUOTE=wystan;49693072]Militant groups which all happen to be Muslim. But I don't want to torture them for being Muslim, that's stupid. What you're implying is much worse.[/QUOTE]
Oh yeah I guess as long as you are not racist, because that would be [B][B][I]terrible[/I][/B][/B], torturing people is okay.
[QUOTE=wystan;49693089]Been over this, that shit is deplorable and shouldn't be happening, I won't ever defend that.[/QUOTE]Then why torture in the first place?
[QUOTE=wystan;49692878]Well that is untrue, I don't believe that[/QUOTE]Damn man, you don't believe in PTSD?
[QUOTE=Damjen;49693095]Oh yeah I guess as long as you are not racist, because that would be [B][B][I]terrible[/I][/B][/B] torturing people is okay.[/QUOTE]
Muslims aren't a race.
[QUOTE=wystan;49693084]Yea that makes no sense from a PR point of view, millions of people will never be ok with torture, there is no reason making it public.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, and millions of people are like you, deluded by the media, and by lies, and unable to even take the word of the people who do the torturing because you are mentally attracted to the concept of making people suffer.
You would celebrate it either way. So they would do that to validate you. It would be the only PR move.
So trump wants to remove torture being a war crime?
Does he even know what water boarding is?
[QUOTE=wystan]Everything.[/QUOTE]
Are you well?
Like, in the head? Psychologically? Do you have some sort of disorder?
Serious question, i swear to god.
[QUOTE=wystan;49693089]Been over this, that shit is deplorable and shouldn't be happening, I won't ever defend that.[/QUOTE]
The problem is that this sentiment isn't being helped by your proposed stance on torture, especially the line earlier about "if you are in a position of being tortured you probably aren't innocent".
You say you don't want innocent people to be tortured then you wholeheartedly endorse a stance that would allow innocent people to be tortured with little to no reason as to why being required. The logic just doesn't follow.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49693111]Yeah, and millions of people are like you, deluded by the media, and by lies, and unable to even take the word of the people who do the torturing because you are mentally attracted to the concept of making people suffer.
You would celebrate it either way. So they would do that to validate you. It would be the only PR move.[/QUOTE]
I'm not a sadist. I'm remaining skeptical to information released by one of the most secretive organizations in the US. How am I deluded by the media, if I am not accepting what the media keeps telling me? You people are the ones who eat up every single puff piece about Sanders and believe every smear piece about Trump. I watch every debate for every party, I get my opinions from what they say, not what second-hand articles tell me.
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding[/url]
In case it hasn't been linked already.
Water boarding will kill you.
[QUOTE]Waterboarding can cause extreme pain, dry drowning, damage to lungs, brain damage from oxygen deprivation, other physical injuries including broken bones due to struggling against restraints, lasting psychological damage, and death.[1] Adverse physical consequences can manifest themselves months after the event, while psychological effects can last for years.[2][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Victims of waterboarding are at extreme risk of sudden death due to the aspiration of vomitus.[/QUOTE]
"I don't want the government to torture innocent people, I want them to torture the [I]right [/I]people, without ever explaining how or why the right people are chosen or how they are tortured".
"I also want this torture to be done by an agency who I can't even trust to release public statements about their own experiences with torture".
[QUOTE=Raidyr;49693122]The problem is that this sentiment isn't being helped by your proposed stance on torture, especially the line earlier about "if you are in a position of being tortured you probably aren't innocent".
You say you don't want innocent people to be tortured then you wholeheartedly endorse a stance that would allow innocent people to be tortured with little to no reason as to why being required. The logic just doesn't follow.[/QUOTE]
I would want the CIA to be more diligent and competent when it comes to capturing enemies of the state. No innocent person should be tortured, I don't think it's the answer for everything, not even the first option.
[QUOTE=wystan;49693148]I would want the CIA to be more diligent and competent when it comes to capturing enemies of the state. No innocent person should be tortured, I don't think it's the answer for everything, not even the first option.[/QUOTE]
I also think no innocent people should be tortured but I also think no one ever should be tortured because I'm not a mindless savage.
[QUOTE=wystan;49693148]I would want the CIA to be more diligent and competent when it comes to capturing enemies of the state. No innocent person should be tortured, I don't think it's the answer for everything, not even the first option.[/QUOTE]
[I][B][U]Torture should never be an option because it doesn't work and is fucking horrible[/U][/B][/I]
[QUOTE=Raidyr;49693143]"I don't want the government to torture innocent people, I want them to torture the [I]right [/I]people, without ever explaining how or why the right people are chosen or how they are tortured".
"I also want this torture to be done by an agency who I can't even trust to release public statements about their own experiences with torture".[/QUOTE]
Non-US citizens aren't entitled to Habeas Corpus.
Now comes the slippery slope post about saying how I want to torture Europeans or something.
[QUOTE=wystan;49693148]I would want the CIA to be more diligent and competent when it comes to capturing enemies of the state. No innocent person should be tortured, I don't think it's the answer for everything, not even the first option.[/QUOTE]No innocent person should be tortured yet inevitably there's going to be a fuck up due to human error and some random innocent person is going to be tortured.
and it's happened before, and will happen again so long as you torture people, this is just simple logic and reasoning.
[QUOTE=Damjen;49693161][I][B][U]Torture should never be an option because it doesn't work and is fucking horrible[/U][/B][/I][/QUOTE]
Said it already. Torture has more uses outside info gathering.
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