• Literacy Not A Right For Detroit School Kids According To State
    76 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Kigen;51428381] And the private schools are accountable to the parents of the child. [/QUOTE] Private schools close down in the middle of a semester all the time and parents and children are SOL for the rest of the school year because public schools only enroll at the beginning of the first semester. No one involved in the private school gets punished either. How is that being held accountable? [editline]e[/editline] Also, let's not forget Trump University. "It's totally a school guys"
I don't even know what literacy as a right would look like. Generally, the kids who don't become literate in a school system are those who either don't attend school or who get in trouble so much that they aren't allowed to attend school.
[QUOTE=Kigen;51428357]It didn't result in it before. Here is a question, why is the US the "top" country so to speak? Why was the US seen as so integral to the world before even WW1? Because we allowed people to expand and succeed or fail on their own. It is NOT the governments responsibility to enforce equal outcome. The only thing that is protected in the US is equal opportunity. Everyone has a fair shot at life as everyone else.[/QUOTE] The idea that the U.S. was "integral to the world before WW1" is a joke. It lacks any historical basis. The U.S. was largely irrelevant on a global scale until WW2, where it was fortunate enough to be oceans away from the main thrust of the war. That put it on top when Europe was in ruins.
[QUOTE=CakeMaster7;51429428]The idea that the U.S. was "integral to the world before WW1" is a joke. It lacks any historical basis. The U.S. was largely irrelevant on a global scale until WW2, where it was fortunate enough to be oceans away from the main thrust of the war. That put it on top when Europe was in ruins.[/QUOTE] The US was already an economic and creative powerhouse in the the 1800s that rivaled anything in Europe.
[QUOTE=sgman91;51429193]I don't even know what literacy as a right would look like. Generally, the kids who don't become literate in a school system are those who either don't attend school or who get in trouble so much that they aren't allowed to attend school.[/QUOTE] Ah I see, it's okay to not guarantee the most basic of communication skills because you think that "generally" the people who don't learn to read or write are the type of people to skip school, or get in trouble a lot. Even if this uncited generalisation was true, are you suggesting that that is somehow the child's fault, or that they should be stuck without an education, or even the means to receive one or function in our society? What do they do then? You are talking about forcing the children of broken homes into a lifetime of not even poverty, because let's get serious here, if you give somebody no job prospects whatsoever, they're going to have to resort to crime to make any money to survive. But that's their fault right, and they chose to do crime so they deserve to go to prison. No wonder you have a problem with mass incarceration in America, with this kind of thinking where you completely ignore the education and social environment surrounding children and chalk up their failure as 100% on them.
[QUOTE=sgman91;51429441]The US was already an economic and creative powerhouse in the the 1800s that rivaled anything in Europe.[/QUOTE] The difference is we stuck to our own shit up until then. (not saying that's a good thing or a bad thing, just stating the facts)
[QUOTE=sgman91;51429441]The US was already an economic and creative powerhouse in the the 1800s that rivaled anything in Europe.[/QUOTE] In 1820, the U.S. had ([URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_by_past_GDP_(PPP)#World_1.E2.80.932003_.28Maddison.29"]been estimated at[/URL]) less than a third the British and French GDP, and less than half of Germany's, and the gap hadn't closed until nearly 1880. The United States was notoriously behind Europe militarily, exemplified as when Roosevelt himself complained about the [URL="http://www.spanamwar.com/spanishmauser.htm"]superior European armaments[/URL] used in the Spanish-American War. Technologically, the U.S. was behind Germany and Britian, with Britian of course being the center for the industrial revolution, and [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Army_(German_Empire)#Industrial_base"]Germany arguably being the most militarily advanced nation[/URL] on Earth before World War 1. And all of that aside, America's isolationist policy mostly kept it out of global politics.
[QUOTE=CakeMaster7;51429970]In 1820, the U.S. had ([URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_by_past_GDP_(PPP)#World_1.E2.80.932003_.28Maddison.29"]been estimated at[/URL]) less than a third the British and French GDP, and less than half of Germany's, and the gap hadn't closed until nearly 1880. The United States was notoriously behind Europe militarily, exemplified as when Roosevelt himself complained about the [URL="http://www.spanamwar.com/spanishmauser.htm"]superior European armaments[/URL] used in the Spanish-American War. Technologically, the U.S. was behind Germany and Britian, with Britian of course being the center for the industrial revolution, and [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Army_(German_Empire)#Industrial_base"]Germany arguably being the most militarily advanced nation[/URL] on Earth before World War 1. And all of that aside, America's isolationist policy mostly kept it out of global politics.[/QUOTE] And not just politics. Economics-wise, the USA, along with the other powers, were generally very protectionist and stuck within their own nations and their respective empires when they could. So it's not like the modern day where our economies are greatly intertwined.
[QUOTE=Kigen;51426578]America is not about "positive rights."[/QUOTE] Dude what the fuck are you saying? Do you think ownership rights are negative rights? It's entirely based on the government enforcing it, yet it's a pillar of your so-called "American dream".
Seeing as how Literacy by its very definition is the ability to read and write, I don't see how "poor reading skills" can be attributed to literacy directly. What is reading skill defined as? If its simply a matter of not understanding the words on a page, that is quite a different thing than not being able to [I]read the words on a page[/I]. Does reading slowly count? What source do the lawyers hope to attribute poor reading skills to? Seems like they are suing the school because its in bad shape top to bottom. Furthermore "[they] want the courts to rule that literacy is a fundamental constitutional right." A ruling will not suddenly mean they will have the money necessary to implement the changes that the plaintiff's actually want done. Especially so if its five schools spread out across an underpopulated area.
[QUOTE=Kigen;51428381]You are arguing for a socialist government. And as we've seen time and time again it fails and makes the government more influential. When the government is the sole provider it doesn't have any reason to do any better than it wants to. That is why there is so much separation of powers in the US. So that there are multiple governments with competing ideals. And the private schools are accountable to the parents of the child. Just like with home schooling. Parents choose how to raise their kid. Also, did you not know that [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_education#United_States]compulsory education in the US started in order to annihilate the native American culture[/url]? I will keep my American dream. My independence. You can be happy wherever you are. I don't force my ideals down your throat. So I don't want your ideals forced down my throat or those of my family. [editline]25th November 2016[/editline] Because its equal opportunity. Opportunity to learn. Not equal outcome. Not equal education level. Do you not know how devalued a high school diploma is now? How devalued even college degrees are getting?[/QUOTE] America is about equal opportunity, such as equal opportunity to learn. Which is why you support not having at least a basic level of schooling for everyone, and instead forcing poorer families to choose between having a house or letting their kids have decent schooling. what How is [I]not[/I] having public school [B]in any way[/B] conductive to giving kids equal opportunity? And before you say "just let the parents home school them!" Well, what if the parents didn't have a good education, and thus can't tell what their kid needs for a good education? "Lol, sorry you have shit luck, but that's equal opportunity"? And you know that American dream of "building yourself up from nothing" only turns out well for a very select few, right? And how is having public school interfering with your independence? If you think you know better than the public school system and want to home school your kids, you can still do that. Just don't take away that option for other people who don't have the time or knowledge for how to do so.
[QUOTE=CakeMaster7;51429428]The idea that the U.S. was "integral to the world before WW1" is a joke. It lacks any historical basis. The U.S. was largely irrelevant on a global scale until WW2, where it was fortunate enough to be oceans away from the main thrust of the war. That put it on top when Europe was in ruins.[/QUOTE] yet we were contributing large amounts of goods for global export and because of our unique position between both the east and west, we also were an important conduit for goods in an age before the panama canal [editline]26th November 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=CakeMaster7;51429970]In 1820, the U.S. had ([URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_by_past_GDP_(PPP)#World_1.E2.80.932003_.28Maddison.29"]been estimated at[/URL]) less than a third the British and French GDP, and less than half of Germany's, and the gap hadn't closed until nearly 1880. The United States was notoriously behind Europe militarily, exemplified as when Roosevelt himself complained about the [URL="http://www.spanamwar.com/spanishmauser.htm"]superior European armaments[/URL] used in the Spanish-American War. Technologically, the U.S. was behind Germany and Britian, with Britian of course being the center for the industrial revolution, and [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Army_(German_Empire)#Industrial_base"]Germany arguably being the most militarily advanced nation[/URL] on Earth before World War 1. And all of that aside, America's isolationist policy mostly kept it out of global politics.[/QUOTE] the US military was notoriously small before ww1 because southerners feared a large US military, northerners didn't want to pay for a large military and in general the volunteer/state milita mix we had at that point worked pretty well at fighting off our external threats (the native americans and mexicans) that said, the US still had some of the worlds best gunsmiths, with maxim, browning, colt and more coming from here and our arms industry equipped many foreign states such as the russian empire. The case about germany should be a serious lesson for us today though. Germany was #1 in the world with science until the nazis took power and started eliminating scientists and sciences that didn't agree with their ideology. The brain drain to the US and britain of talented scientists and physicists was an unquestionable edge in ww2 and beyond
[QUOTE=Menien Goneld;51429855]Ah I see, it's okay to not guarantee the most basic of communication skills because you think that "generally" the people who don't learn to read or write are the type of people to skip school, or get in trouble a lot. Even if this uncited generalisation was true, are you suggesting that that is somehow the child's fault, or that they should be stuck without an education, or even the means to receive one or function in our society? What do they do then? You are talking about forcing the children of broken homes into a lifetime of not even poverty, because let's get serious here, if you give somebody no job prospects whatsoever, they're going to have to resort to crime to make any money to survive. But that's their fault right, and they chose to do crime so they deserve to go to prison. No wonder you have a problem with mass incarceration in America, with this kind of thinking where you completely ignore the education and social environment surrounding children and chalk up their failure as 100% on them.[/QUOTE] Why the hell do you think I started it off with a question of what it would look like? Do you want the state knocking down doors and taking kids from families because they miss school a lot? I'm sure those kids will do much better when you put them in state sponsored mass foster care centers all in the name of getting them an education. I've worked in the public school system is a district with over 40,000 kids and high rates of poverty. You don't even know how much money and time is spent trying to get kids in school with parents fighting back every step of the way. [editline]26th November 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=CakeMaster7;51429970]In 1820, the U.S. had ([URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_by_past_GDP_(PPP)#World_1.E2.80.932003_.28Maddison.29"]been estimated at[/URL]) less than a third the British and French GDP, and less than half of Germany's, and the gap hadn't closed until nearly 1880. The United States was notoriously behind Europe militarily, exemplified as when Roosevelt himself complained about the [URL="http://www.spanamwar.com/spanishmauser.htm"]superior European armaments[/URL] used in the Spanish-American War. Technologically, the U.S. was behind Germany and Britian, with Britian of course being the center for the industrial revolution, and [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Army_(German_Empire)#Industrial_base"]Germany arguably being the most militarily advanced nation[/URL] on Earth before World War 1. And all of that aside, America's isolationist policy mostly kept it out of global politics.[/QUOTE] Why did you quote from 1820 and not the late 1800s, much closer to WWI? The US jumped ahead of both the UK and France in manufacturing output before the turn of the century. You also had the US developing many of the key products and processes that allowed progress (For example: the electric light, telephone, steam turbine, internal combustion engine, automobile, phonograph, typewriter and tabulating machine were some of the many inventions of the period.)
[QUOTE=sgman91;51431056]Why the hell do you think I started it off with a question of what it would look like? Do you want the state knocking down doors and taking kids from families because they miss school a lot? I'm sure those kids will do much better when you put them in state sponsored mass foster care centers all in the name of getting them an education. I've worked in the public school system is a district with over 40,000 kids and high rates of poverty. You don't even know how much money and time is spent trying to get kids in school with parents fighting back every step of the way. [editline]26th November 2016[/editline] Why did you quote from 1820 and not the late 1800s, much closer to WWI? The US jumped ahead of both the UK and France in manufacturing output before the turn of the century. You also had the US developing many of the key products and processes that allowed progress (For example: the electric light, telephone, steam turbine, internal combustion engine, automobile, phonograph, typewriter and tabulating machine were some of the many inventions of the period.)[/QUOTE] To dispel the notion that the U.S "rivaled anyone in Europe" for the vast majority of the century. And the steam turbine, electric light, and ICE for starters were European, not American, innovations.
[QUOTE=CakeMaster7;51431532]To dispel the notion that the [B]U.S "rivaled anyone in Europe" for the vast majority of the century.[/B] And the steam turbine, electric light, and ICE for starters were European, not American, innovations.[/QUOTE] Well it's a good thing I never said that! I said it rivaled them [B]IN[/B] 1800s, which includes the late 1800s. My whole point was to dispel your silly claim that the US was "largely irrelevant" before WWI. About those innovations, yes, it's almost impossible to give one single person the "invention" of any fairly modern thing, but it's undeniable that US innovation played huge roles in those inventions becoming what we know today.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.