Nevada Prison To Charge Prisoners For Food and Healthcare
183 replies, posted
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43850797]yeah you don't know what you're talking about if that's what you legitimately think[/QUOTE]
preeetty sure feeding one's family is not the only reason people do fucked up crimes sometimes.
[QUOTE=Strontboer;43856565]No, That's exactly what you're saying. You can complicate it any way you want but it comes down to that.[/QUOTE]
no it doesnt wtf
what they're saying is that criminals were put in situations where they were more likely to commit crimes. and they're put in those situations mostly by society (racism and different standards that make it hard to get a job, for example) and by the government (poor education, bad policies, etc)
i mean, why do you think people in poorer areas are more likely to commit crimes? do you really think those two things have nothing to do with one another? what everyone is saying is that if you take out what causes people to commit crimes, you'll probably see a lot less of those crimes
Hell even in Gulag they could work for the food, How are they able to make money in there to pay for their food?
So they would be just happy to see someone starve to death if they dont have money? Isn't it against human rights? Hell even death sentence is less cruel than this horrible practice.
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;43860100]no it doesnt wtf
what they're saying is that criminals were put in situations where they were more likely to commit crimes. and they're put in those situations mostly by society (racism and different standards that make it hard to get a job, for example) and by the government (poor education, bad policies, etc)
i mean, why do you think people in poorer areas are more likely to commit crimes? do you really think those two things have nothing to do with one another? what everyone is saying is that if you take out what causes people to commit crimes, you'll probably see a lot less of those crimes[/QUOTE]
That might be the case, But I don't agree with you. I don't have a lot of sympathy for those who commit crimes just because they live in a shitty neighbourhood or don't have a lot of money. It's still a choice.
[QUOTE=Strontboer;43860514]That might be the case, But I don't agree with you. I don't have a lot of sympathy for those who commit crimes just because they live in a shitty neighbourhood or don't have a lot of money. It's still a choice.[/QUOTE]
It may be a choice, but trust me, there's a difference between doing what is right and what is easy. Philosophically (and thus, theoretically) speaking, the right thing to do when you had no money would be to not steal, but rely on the kindness of others to survive until you got back on your feet, or beg for a living. The average person, however, is pretty terrified of ending up on the streets with nothing, and will try to avoid that no matter what. Even if it means doing what's acknowledged by society at large as being a wrong thing. Survival and doing what it takes will at that point, be the only thing that matters to them, and anything that takes place as a result affecting somebody else won't immediately cause the perp to consider the repercussions.
I would recommend, Strontboer, that you take a good long read through Crime and Punishment. It might change how you think about things.
this thread proves the divided polar views of the penal system that has caused it to be the mess that it is today. the original american prison system practiced the idea of reform. people who are in prison besides murderers and the few who are in for life, should be reformed and allowed to rejoin society as an equal member of society. forcing people to pay fore their prison sentence or believing all prisoners are scum and treating the system like a cage for undesirables is exactly what the ancestors of the founding fathers left england and Europe to get away from.
[editline]10th February 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Strontboer;43860514]That might be the case, But I don't agree with you. I don't have a lot of sympathy for those who commit crimes just because they live in a shitty neighbourhood or don't have a lot of money. It's still a choice.[/QUOTE]
have you never seen les miserables? the guy stole a loaf of bread and was a saint the rest of his life yet he was still always hunted because of it
[QUOTE=Sableye;43860569]this thread proves the divided polar views of the penal system that has caused it to be the mess that it is today. the original american prison system practiced the idea of reform. people who are in prison besides murderers and the few who are in for life, should be reformed and allowed to rejoin society as an equal member of society. forcing people to pay fore their prison sentence or believing all prisoners are scum and treating the system like a cage for undesirables is exactly what the ancestors of the founding fathers left england and Europe to get away from.
[editline]10th February 2014[/editline]
have you never seen les miserables? the guy stole a loaf of bread and was a saint the rest of his life yet he was still always hunted because of it[/QUOTE]
I don't see how a musical is relevant at all....
But next to that, I'm stating that in a scenario where's there's always a safety net to rely on, always food and shelter ready for you, there's NO reason to take part in criminal activities. And I cannot possibly see how you could disagree with that unless the crime would be of personal hate/revenge ect.
[QUOTE=ripsipiirakk;43860383]Hell even in Gulag they could work for the food, How are they able to make money in there to pay for their food?
So they would be just happy to see someone starve to death if they dont have money? Isn't it against human rights? Hell even death sentence is less cruel than this horrible practice.[/QUOTE]
You have no idea how our prison systems work.
[QUOTE=Strontboer;43860618]I don't see how a musical is relevant at all....
But next to that, I'm stating that in a scenario where's there's always a safety net to rely on, always food and shelter ready for you, there's NO reason to take part in criminal activities. And I cannot possibly see how you could disagree with that unless the crime would be of personal hate/revenge ect.[/QUOTE]
Oh I agree
but MOST PEOPLE WHO COMMIT CRIME DON'T HAVE THIS.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43860963]Oh I agree
but MOST PEOPLE WHO COMMIT CRIME DON'T HAVE THIS.[/QUOTE]
Yes, Indeed. But like I stated I don't know how fucked up things are in America. Here people pretty much always have a safety net. I'm just having a hard time believing that life there can be so 'hard' that people are forced to commit crimes....
[QUOTE=Strontboer;43860993]Yes, Indeed. But like I stated I don't know how fucked up things are in America. Here people pretty much always have a safety net. I'm just having a hard time believing that life there can be so 'hard' that people are forced to commit crimes....[/QUOTE]
your ignorance is astounding
[QUOTE=Strontboer;43860993]Yes, Indeed. But like I stated I don't know how fucked up things are in America. Here people pretty much always have a safety net. I'm just having a hard time believing that life there can be so 'hard' that people are forced to commit crimes....[/QUOTE]
quit the "i dont know how it is in america" thing, seriously, you're only using it as an excuse so you don't need to argue properly, and instead you can just repeat the nonsense you've been spewing out since the beginning of the thread
people everywhere are the same. the laws might not be the same and the environment might not be the same, but people are, and if they're raised in a shitty environment, odds are they're more likely to do shitty things. that's true for america, the netherlands and everywhere else.
Hypothetical.
Supposing I'm a homeless man and I have cancer, and I wind up in prison. What happens to me? Do I just sit in my cell and waste away thanks to the cancer? Do the rest of the inmates have to sit there and watch me die a slow and painful death?
I'm saying I don't know how badly things are there because I do not believe a shitty neighbourhood and little to none available jobs can literally force someone to commit crimes. You're all ignorant if you think crime is only because of bad/poor environments.
And yes obviously you're more likely to commit a crime if you're generally dumber and live in a poor area, that however doesn't mean they are forced in any way.
Crime is a choice. All of you have this idea burned into your thick skull that all people can be saved, that prisoners are honest and good people who slipped or had to commit crimes to survive. Wake up, the world is filled with bad people. The world isn't as nice as you'd like it to be.
Well guess what, That dude who shot your wife to steal the big plasma tv didn't shoot just because he happened to live in a bad town. He shot because he's a fucked up individual raised most likely by even more fucked up parents.
[QUOTE=Strontboer;43861203]He shot because he's a fucked up individual raised most likely by even more fucked up parents.[/QUOTE]
are you fucking kidding me this is what we've been saying the whole fucking thread qwioepjfpqimefkl,sa;cp23fsdf3q
[QUOTE=Strontboer;43861203]I'm saying I don't know how badly things are there because I do not believe a shitty neighbourhood and little to none available jobs can literally force someone to commit crimes. You're all ignorant if you think crime is only because of bad/poor environments.
And yes obviously you're more likely to commit a crime if you're generally dumber and live in a poor area, that however doesn't mean they are forced in any way.
Crime is a choice. All of you have this idea burned into your thick skull that all people can be saved, that prisoners are honest and good people who slipped or had to commit crimes to survive. Wake up, the world is filled with bad people. The world isn't as nice as you'd like it to be.
Well guess what, That dude who shot your wife to steal the big plasma tv didn't shoot just because he happened to live in a bad town. He shot because he's a fucked up individual raised most likely by even more fucked up parents.[/QUOTE]Level with us for just a moment and put yourself in this scenario.
You are given two choices, commit a crime and preserve your own life, or ignore your self preservation instincts and die. What the hell are you going to do?
I'm not saying there aren't fucked up people in the world (the terms are psychopaths and sociopaths right) but claiming that these people are scum just because they had shitty luck in life is fucking insane.
Crime is not a fucking choice when your very life depends on it.
[QUOTE=Strontboer;43861203]I'm saying I don't know how badly things are there because I do not believe a shitty neighbourhood and little to none available jobs can literally force someone to commit crimes. You're all ignorant if you think crime is only because of bad/poor environments.
And yes obviously you're more likely to commit a crime if you're generally dumber and live in a poor area, that however doesn't mean they are forced in any way.
Crime is a choice. All of you have this idea burned into your thick skull that all people can be saved, that prisoners are honest and good people who slipped or had to commit crimes to survive. Wake up, the world is filled with bad people. The world isn't as nice as you'd like it to be.
Well guess what, That dude who shot your wife to steal the big plasma tv didn't shoot just because he happened to live in a bad town. He shot because he's a fucked up individual raised most likely by even more fucked up parents.[/QUOTE]
You don't seem to understand what's going on here. Seed Eater posted a pretty great explanation of what a number of people in this thread have been trying to say, and you came in perhaps trying to be witty with your overly simplified 'summary' of the thread.
Here's an article that explores some of the body of research that deals with the causes of crime:
http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/lawlink/bocsar/ll_bocsar.nsf/vwFiles/cjb54.pdf/$file/cjb54.pdf
[QUOTE][B]Poverty and unemployment are usually thought to cause crime because they motivate people to offend as a means of overcoming their disadvantage.[/B] More recent research has highlighted other possibilities. Parents exposed to economic or social stress have been found to be more at risk of inadequate parenting practices, such as neglect, poor supervision and inconsistent, erratic discipline. As we saw earlier, these parental behaviours increase the risk of juvenile involvement in crime.[B] It is possible, then, that social and economic stress act as important distal influences on crime, their effects being mediated by family factors. This possibility is supported by empirical evidence.[/B][/QUOTE]
Choice does come into play, but not all choices involving individuals and crime are true or fair choices. If you have to choose between survival and crime, is that a true or fair choice? If not stealing means death, or if you're threatened by someone else with death such as in gang situations, and you don't have access to reasonable alternatives through safety nets and such (as is often the case in the United States), what are you to do?
Not everyone in here is saying that all people can be saved, or even that all prisoners are honest and good people or even had to commit crimes in order to survive.
What we are saying though, is that a lot of bad people could very easily be good people if they were in different situations, and that the inverse is likely true as well.
Take a seemingly good person, put them in a shitty situation, and chances are they might do things that they would never think of doing if they were in their previous situation.
What people are saying is that criminals ought to have a chance to demonstrate that they can behave well and be good people by putting them in a better situation.
If your society or system makes it extremely difficult to get by or play by the rules and makes it easier and safer to break the rules, then something is wrong with your system.
Chances are some of the people that fucked up are going to continue to break the rules even after you've provided the chance for rehabilitation. The best possible outcome is that they will improve and won't negatively contribute to the next generation of individuals.
Putting people in an even shittier position after they've broken the rules and effectively forcing them into a situation where they have to break the rules to get by doesn't help anyone. More people are going to be wronged, and that individual is going to contribute negatively overall to society and future generations.
[QUOTE=Solo Wing;43861699]Level with us for just a moment and put yourself in this scenario.
You are given two choices, commit a crime and preserve your own life, or ignore your self preservation instincts and die. What the hell are you going to do?
I'm not saying there aren't fucked up people in the world (the terms are psychopaths and sociopaths right) but claiming that these people are scum just because they had shitty luck in life is fucking insane.
Crime is not a fucking choice when your very life depends on it.[/QUOTE]
Yes while I do agree on this, And I believe this really does happen. The bigger part of the prisoners aren't in prison because they were faced with that situation.
[QUOTE=Strontboer;43861870]Yes while I do agree on this, And I believe this really does happen. The bigger part of the prisoners aren't in prison because they were faced with that situation.[/QUOTE]
Just read through this thread, and I gotta say you have one of the most idiotic, warped view on what causes people to commit crimes, and you're perfectly ok with prisoners being saddled with debt while in prison. That's pretty petty and childish of you.
[QUOTE=Strontboer;43860993]Here people pretty much always have a safety net. [/QUOTE]
yeah its so unfair that human beings are allowed to continue living god what pieces of shit
Charging for admission and healthcare is absolutely disgusting and reprehensible. Basic food should be provided for free as well, but having some extra specialty food like hostess treats and candy bars and other luxury items like cigarettes serve as a motivator for the prisoner to work (helping him to adjust to a life of working rather than a life of crime) would be a good idea.
[QUOTE=cis.joshb;43862894]Charging for admission and healthcare is absolutely disgusting and reprehensible. Basic food should be provided for free as well, but having some extra specialty food like hostess treats and candy bars and other luxury items like cigarettes serve as a motivator for the prisoner to work (helping him to adjust to a life of working rather than a life of crime) would be a good idea.[/QUOTE]
They already do that in most prisons.
strontboer
are you an actual person
or are you an fp bot designed to be the ultimate 'le epic troll'
[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;43863417]They already do that in most prisons.[/QUOTE]
Well then that's good, but it's bad that this prison is deciding to either starve (unlikely) or indebt prisoners for basic food and healthcare in a place that they are forced to be in.
[QUOTE=cis.joshb;43864719]Well then that's good, but it's bad that this prison is deciding to either starve (unlikely) or indebt prisoners for basic food and healthcare in a place that they are forced to be in.[/QUOTE]
If they work, they get their meals free. The decide to sit on their ass, they get charged. Their families have access to put money into their accounts. No one will starve. Thats fucking an extreme assumption. If we have to pay for food and healthcare on the outside, they shouldnt get it free on the inside.
[QUOTE=areolop;43864903]If they work, they get their meals free. The decide to sit on their ass, they get charged. Their families have access to put money into their accounts. No one will starve. Thats fucking an extreme assumption. If we have to pay for food and healthcare on the outside, they shouldnt get it free on the inside.[/QUOTE]
what if their family can't pay or they have no family that will pay
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43864913]what if their family can't pay or they have no family that will pay[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=130&sid=28641781&fm=most_popular[/url]
[quote]Those with no money would see their account accrue a negative balance, and that balance would remain in the event the inmate was released but later returned to jail for whatever reason.
"It has nothing to do with them getting out of jail, but if they ever come back with any money, that will be applied to what they owe us," Pitts said Friday. "All I'm doing is taking my cut first, before they buy their candies. They need to pay for their food first before they get their dessert."
Pitts said the fees for doctor visits are necessary to help combat an increase in the number of inmates who appear to be faking illnesses.[/quote]
The debt doesnt follow you out of the system, but if you re-offend they'll empty your bank.
That sounds pretty terrible actually
Maybe it'll act as an incentive not to reoffend
that seems tangentially legal at best
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