A majority of americans agree that taxes need to be raised on the corporations and the rich
190 replies, posted
The people in this thread make it sound like America is some sort of autocratic hellhole dictatorship comparable with Sudan or Myanmar or something. There still need to be reforms though
[QUOTE=cat man;31143299]The people in this thread make it sound like America is some sort of autocratic hellhole dictatorship comparable with Sudan or Myanmar something.[/QUOTE]
Is it not?
a pure democracy is fundamentally flawed because you would be asking everyone about everything in a situation where everyone is completely ignorant about almost everything. this would get increasingly more and more true as time goes on, so all these people in their little expertises would have no idea what to vote for, and so start relying on media and other people to tell them what to vote for. thats not how you run a country.
the current system is even worse though, i still maintain we need a decentralized RBE with government as we think of it today removed.
venus project erryday.
[QUOTE=Mattk50;31143402]decentralized[/QUOTE]
Isn't that rather inefficient?
[QUOTE=cat man;31143299]The people in this thread make it sound like America is some sort of autocratic hellhole dictatorship comparable with Sudan or Myanmar or something. There still need to be reforms though[/QUOTE]
it really is. corporations are in charge, it wouldnt be too hard to get rid of them but everyone is too ignorant to do anything atm. also the USA(corporations, cia, it doesnt matter) has its dick in so many other hellhole dictatorships, they often create those situations in other countries so they can maintain control and take advantage of the country for cheap labor and resources. basically, the government isnt doing it, but corporations exploit loans create situations that fuck these countries over and then the government/cia ends up "aligning" with their objective.
[editline]15th July 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;31143433]Isn't that rather inefficient?[/QUOTE]
Decentralization has no direct link to efficiency, it depends on how the rest of structure is formed. in this specific case, no, it would be the most efficient system possible.
A revolution is pretty much the only thing that can get this country to a better state. Unless we somehow simultaneously voted out every official for people who actually give a shit about the country (and not their wallets), or outlawed lobbying, or put term limits on congress seats (which won't happen because the people in congress would have to vote for it), we're never going to get a half-decent government otherwise.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;31141441]Essentially what we can determine is this:
[img]http://images.wikia.com/sbhj/images/0/01/BarackObana1.JPG[/img][/QUOTE]
He's trying, but he has to deal with a bunch of thickheads who disagree with his every action.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;31130447]Unfortunately, that majority of Americans aren't the ones with the money to lobby for their interests.[/QUOTE]
Sadly true... and people won't do a damn thing about it.
Comparing America to the countries I mentioned before is ridiculous. The United States is still a democratic country. It is still a first-world, "free country". As in people such as Westboro are legally protected, and movies like Religulous and Brüno can be made and were widely enjoyed.
Back when I was younger I used to hate the government, used to be anarchist socialist angsty teenager, ect. I matured and got a job and can honestly say that I enjoy living in America. Sure, it's far from perfect, but in 1963, African Americans didn't have civil rights in every state. Now look where we are. Not to mimic Obama, but change is very possible, instead of complaining about it on the internet, go out and vote, or hell, become a politician and change the world. It's all possible.
[QUOTE=mobrockers2;31140920]Think you're the one out of touch with reality here.[/QUOTE]Another brilliant argument by mobrockers GOOD JOB BRO GOOD JOB
can you imagine a world without political parties?
[img]http://arthurmarris.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/1210017572_f.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=GeneralFredrik;31141338]It's funny, you listed those countries but you somehow forgot America itself.
And here is another from Al Jazeera:
Yep, America is in such better shape :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]Yeah and a few months ago the entire country was going to stop functioning because a budget hadn't been worked out, that's typical sensationalist this forum is named after. OH SHIT FIVE DAYS OF TALKS WELL BEFORE THE DEADLINE THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE AS BELGIUM DOESN'T HAVE A GOVERNMENT FOR A YEAR OH WELL NOT A BIG DEAL.
[QUOTE=meppers;31144774]can you imagine a world without political parties?[/QUOTE]No but I can instead give you a few real world examples beyond some overly idealistic pipe dreams.
[QUOTE=POLOPOZOZO;31144814]Yeah and a few months ago the entire country was going to stop functioning because a budget hadn't been worked out, that's typical sensationalist this forum is named after. OH SHIT FIVE DAYS OF TALKS WELL BEFORE THE DEADLINE THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE AS BELGIUM DOESN'T HAVE A GOVERNMENT FOR A YEAR OH WELL NOT A BIG DEAL.
No but I can instead give you a few real world examples beyond some overly idealistic pipe dreams.[/QUOTE]
Belgium not having a government doesn't matter that much really, only means that they can't push trough any new laws, the rest of the country is still working, ministry's and all.
[editline]16th July 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=POLOPOZOZO;31144767]Another brilliant argument by mobrockers GOOD JOB BRO GOOD JOB[/QUOTE]
Great comeback from you too, as expected.
I find it necessary to raise the point that most of america doesn't own a corporation and isn't rich. Everyone is ok with hurting some one else to make their situation better.
Don't argue with me, I'm not taking sides I'm just making a point.
[QUOTE=melonmonkey;31144897]I find it necessary to raise the point that most of america doesn't own a corporation and isn't rich. Everyone is ok with hurting some one else to make their situation better.
Don't argue with me, I'm not taking sides I'm just making a point.[/QUOTE]
Point is that the poor are hurting more than the rich, and that needs to be levelled out.
[QUOTE=POLOPOZOZO;31136931]
Really are you sure because it's still around.[/QUOTE]
I said not as well, not going/gone into the ground. The six nations has existed for over 800 years in comparison to the 223 years of America has.
[QUOTE=mobrockers2;31144878]Belgium not having a government doesn't matter that much really, only means that they can't push trough any new laws, the rest of the country is still working, ministry's and all.[/QUOTE]US not having a deal worked out doesn't matter that much really, only means that they are still working towards the deadline, the rest of the country is still working, federal departments and all. Oh what the fuck am I saying obviously this is a systemic failure of American democracy that will destroy the country foreverrrrrrrrrrrr
[QUOTE]Great comeback from you too, as expected.[/QUOTE]
Oh ok because you clearly had some point that I can or can't refute beyond some retarded ad hominem, clearly it was right fucking there in your post with all your information or even subjective statements to back up some kind of point, I just missed it because that's what I typically do right ok.
[QUOTE=POLOPOZOZO;31145012]US not having a deal worked out doesn't matter that much really, only means that they are still working towards the deadline, the rest of the country is still working, federal departments and all. Oh what the fuck am I saying obviously this is a systemic failure of American democracy that will destroy the country foreverrrrrrrrrrrr
Oh ok because you clearly had some point that I can or can't refute beyond some retarded ad hominem, clearly it was right fucking there in your post with all your information or even subjective statements to back up some kind of point, I just missed it because that's what I typically do right ok.[/QUOTE]
What we're trying to say here is that the system fails because big corporations 's interest in politics, and actually being able to pressure your government into doing things. You have one party trying to save your country from another economic crisis, and you have the only other party doing all they can do drive it to disaster.
The US not having a deal worked out does matter a great deal when there is no deal to be seen anytime soon, there is a deadline to be made, and so far all talks have turned up nothing.
[QUOTE=meppers;31144774]can you imagine a world without political parties?
[img]http://arthurmarris.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/1210017572_f.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
Why are there people in it.
[QUOTE=Im Crimson;31134885]Anyone else getting the feeling the Republicans are instinctively working against everything the democrats suggest no matter what just out of spite, being pissed since Obama was elected?[/QUOTE]
They are. I remember a few months back or something the republicans were all supporting some bill and a bunch of the democrats decided to vote on it and so many of the republicans chickened out that it didn't get passed.
[QUOTE=mobrockers2;31145048]What we're trying to say here is that the system fails because big corporations 's interest in politics, and actually being able to pressure your government into doing things. You have one party trying to save your country from another economic crisis, and you have the only other party doing all they can do drive it to disaster.
The US not having a deal worked out does matter a great deal when there is no deal to be seen anytime soon, there is a deadline to be made, and so far all talks have turned up nothing.[/QUOTE]
The system doesn't fail because it hasn't failed because to say that big corporations are the ones controlling everything is to completely ignore how the government and election process functions, and amounts to nothing more than some redneck saying "all politicians they're all the same" like they can actually implement a better idea. Like I said, there are PACs, interests groups, think tanks, constituencies, and so on, on every side of every issue. Even then the most money raised comes from small contributions. Obama's campaign was like the most successful campaign ever and the majority of contributions were very small and I mean $5, $10, $20 small. Companies have a part in it and they should to a degree, as do unions, ethnic groups, anything that you can group people together. I'm not even going to get into how ridiculous it is to say that one party is good and the other is bad beyond the fact that a position would not exist if there wasn't a minority constituency that supported it and wanted it to be included in the platform. The Republican position actually makes sense this time, they don't want to raise taxes in the middle of a recession when people are most reluctant to spend. Their constituents, even if they are a minority in this debate, voted them in on a promise of no tax raises. Meanwhile Democrats are reluctant to make cuts into the things where the cuts actually need to be, I'm not going to call the entire party stupid and out to destroy the country because of that because it's what their constituents want. In other words they are slowly moving towards the deadline, deliberately, as the government was designed to do. Meanwhile every thread made here is either some doomsday bullshit or some dumb thing Rick Perry said and honestly who gives a fuck he's Rick Perry.
[QUOTE=Ogopogo;31144995]I said not as well, not going/gone into the ground. The six nations has existed for over 800 years in comparison to the 223 years of America has.[/QUOTE]America is going into the ground huh? Things look pretty fine around here, quality of life seems to be pretty nice, gas and food are relatively cheap, employment could be worse.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;31130447]Unfortunately, that majority of Americans aren't the ones with the money to lobby for their interests.[/QUOTE]
Fortunately some of the politicians (i.e. those not in their last term) know that they don't stand a chance of reelection if they don't listen to the public at least some
[QUOTE=OpethRockr55;31132561]You can't just excuse those 'minor oddities'. The Greek and Roman democracies, some over 2 millennia old, were a major influence on modern democracies, and even they were bound by corruption between the rich. This is nothing new, disgusting as it is.
It's not a flaw in the system, per se, but a flaw in human nature.[/QUOTE]
The Greek democracies were super fragile man. And not all of the city states were democratic, Sparta was a fascist state.
[QUOTE=mobrockers2;31145048]What we're trying to say here is that the system fails because big corporations 's interest in politics, and actually being able to pressure your government into doing things. You have one party trying to save your country from another economic crisis, and you have the only other party doing all they can do drive it to disaster.
The US not having a deal worked out does matter a great deal when there is no deal to be seen anytime soon, there is a deadline to be made, and so far all talks have turned up nothing.[/QUOTE]
Someone needs to take government class again. Oh wait, you don't even live in this country.
I disagree, I think we should all be taxed the same. Just people some people make more money doesn't mean they should be punished.
I think its time that the US adopts a new [i]modern[/i] constitution. Or amends the current one to compensate for the amount of shit heads in the US.
[QUOTE=Sir Colton;31146781]I disagree, I think we should all be taxed the same. Just people some people make more money doesn't mean they should be punished.[/QUOTE]
It'll never get passed in the U.S. climate. The ideologies on both ends will lash out and say no.
[QUOTE=areolop;31146795]I think its time that the US adopts a new [i]modern[/i] constitution. Or amends the current one to compensate for the amount of shit heads in the US.[/QUOTE]
The current Constitution is fine. How would passing amendments make the United States smarter as a whole?
[QUOTE=Sir Colton;31146781]I disagree, I think we should all be taxed the same. Just people some people make more money doesn't mean they should be punished.[/QUOTE]
Taxes are not "punishment". And if people get rich because their business succeeds, they owe a lot of that success to government services. Taxes pay for the roads your goods and customers travel on. Government regulation protects your business from the unfair practices of others (ideally). Entitlement programs allow more customers to afford your products. The FDIC insures the money in your company bank accounts.
Without government, you get Somalia. Every rich person in this country owes a great deal to the overall system that allows them to succeed. On top of that, the richer you are, the more you can afford to contribute in taxes without it affecting your standard of living. Is the CEO of DirecTV going to have a worse life with $30 million a year instead of $32 million? I think not.
Oh and I should also stress that many of the large corporations seldom pay taxes. They're getting away like fucking bandits.
If this nation classifies corporations as a 'person' then they better start calling them out and have them start paying their own share.
[QUOTE=HolyCrusade;31134110]Hey genius, the majority of Americans are the ones with the power to elect those who will cater to their interests. Don't blame the system because the people are fucking idiots.[/QUOTE]
Someone voted Republican :rolleyes:
[editline]16th July 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=CabooseRvB;31146812]It'll never get passed in the U.S. climate. The ideologies on both ends will lash out and say no.
The current Constitution is fine. How would passing amendments make the United States smarter as a whole?[/QUOTE]
I'd agree with you, but the constitution needs to specify just a bit more. Gays not having equal rights is absolutely ridiculous and is something that needs to be implemented countrywide whether or not a bunch of batshit fundamentalist Christians want it to be.
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