Syrian refugees drag paedophile to police after he was found attacking 7-year-old at refugee camp
76 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Dzonintz;49971616]Please read my previous posts.[/QUOTE]
your post says nothing about why islam hasn't changed
your entire argument is that islam doesn't change, if you define change in the manner that benefits your argument
by saying that the 'core' is the same, you are essentially saying that christianity has not changed because the core (religious text, central beliefs) have largely remained the same
[QUOTE=Dzonintz;49971616]Please read my previous posts.[/QUOTE]
you do realize that people can take religion based on how they see it right
it's not like someone declares themselves a Christian and immediately goes to war on everything that is verboten in the Bible
moderates are a thing
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;49971631]
your entire argument is that islam doesn't change, if you define change in the manner that benefits your argument[/quote]
Ok, can you tell me what defines change in your argument? What are some of the major differences in that picture you posted, since they all follow the same trilogy.
[quote]by saying that the 'core' is the same, you are essentially saying that christianity has not changed because the core (religious text, central beliefs) have largely remained the same[/QUOTE]
Except Christianity devolved into huge sphere of philosophy which allows you to interpret it as you wish, while Mohammed's word is an absolute unchangeable truth in Islam and there is no space for interpretations.
[QUOTE=Dzonintz;49971648]Ok, can you tell me what defines change in your argument? What are some of the major differences in that picture you posted, since they all follow the same trilogy.
Except Christianity devolved into huge sphere of philosophy which allows you to interpret it as you wish, while Mohammed's word is an absolute unchangeable truth in Islam and there is no space for interpretations.[/QUOTE]
find me a christian sect or denomination that doesn't believe in the importance of Jesus
or doesn't believe in Jesus
[QUOTE=aznz888;49971641]you do realize that people can take religion based on how they see it right[/quote]
We are not talking about people, we are talking about religion.
On Christian part, I'll quote myself from previous post:
[quote]Except Christianity devolved into huge sphere of philosophy which allows you to interpret it as you wish, while Mohammed's word is an absolute unchangeable truth in Islam and there is no space for interpretations.
[/quote]
[editline]20th March 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;49971659]find me a christian sect or denomination that doesn't believe in the importance of Jesus
or doesn't believe in Jesus[/QUOTE]
I don't understand what you're aiming at? I guess we could interpret the belief in Jesus Christ as "core" of Christianity, just as Koran, Sunna, and Hadiths are core of Islam.
[QUOTE=Dzonintz;49971665]We are not talking about people, we are talking about religion.
On Christian part, I'll quote myself from previous post:
[editline]20th March 2016[/editline]
I don't understand what you're aiming at? I guess we could interpret the belief in Jesus Christ as "core" of Christianity, just as Koran, Sunna, and Hadiths are core of Islam.[/QUOTE]
cool
that core of christianity has not changed
ergo, christianity has not changed significantly in the last 1000 years
[editline]20th March 2016[/editline]
i mean, sure there's tons of branches that differ on the details, but that isn't [I]real change is it[/I]
It hasn't, people's interpretation of it has, but that's because we have Old and New testament allowing us to "wiggle" through it, while Mohammed's word is an absolute.
Which brings us back to what I've said before.
[quote]It is impossible to reform Islam, because it was designed so it could not be reformed or changed. Koran, Sunna and Hadiths are the absolute truths of Mohammad and cannot be changed under any circumstance, ask any Muslim about this. How can you change something that is already perfect in the eyes of the believer? If you do try to change it, it becomes apostasy which will end up getting you killed.[/quote]
but what does literally any of this have to do with anything
[QUOTE=Dzonintz;49971648]Except Christianity devolved into huge sphere of philosophy which allows you to interpret it as you wish, while Mohammed's word is an absolute unchangeable truth in Islam and there is no space for interpretations.[/QUOTE]
Go back 500 years or so and you'd hear people saying the same about Christianity. Just because their book says so doesn't mean they're going to listen to it forever. That's simply not how human nature works.
[QUOTE=Dzonintz;49971681]It hasn't, people's interpretation of it has, but that's because we have Old and New testament allowing us to "wiggle" through it, while Mohammed's word is an absolute.
Which brings us back to what I've said before.[/QUOTE]
Can you please tell us where you got certification or a bachelor's in Islam studies? Because otherwise I feel like the authority you're relying on is the one you're sitting on.
[QUOTE=Dzonintz;49971681]It hasn't, people's interpretation of it has, but that's because we have Old and New testament allowing us to "wiggle" through it, while Mohammed's word is an absolute.
Which brings us back to what I've said before.[/QUOTE]
that is an amazingly insane opinion, and i don't think there's going to be any way of arguing you out of this
if you don't think christianity and islam have changed since their inception, and instead that "people's interpretation of them" has (interpretations of events [B]BEING WHAT RELIGION IS BASED UPON[/B]) then there's no reason to drag this on any further
[QUOTE=Dzonintz;49971350]It is impossible to reform Islam, because it was designed so it could not be reformed or changed. Koran, Sunna and Hadiths are the absolute truths of Mohammad and cannot be changed under any circumstance, ask any Muslim about this. How can you change something that is already perfect in the eyes of the believer? If you do try to change it, it becomes apostasy which will end up getting you killed.[/QUOTE]
Christianity has similar statements within scripture. In spite of that, it, and the societies that follow it, have changed drastically over the centuries it has existed.
Scripture is iron-clad. People are not. People are products of upbringing, environment, and a host of other factors. Religion is only one influence on them.
[QUOTE=BigJoeyLemons;49971698]Go back 500 years or so and you'd hear people saying the same about Christianity. Just because their book says so doesn't mean they're going to listen to it forever. That's simply not how human nature works.[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure if you're misunderstanding me, but according to Islam Mohammed's word [B]is an absolute perfection[/B], it is unchangeable. Islam was designed so it can't be contradicted.
[QUOTE=Cone;49971684]but what does literally any of this have to do with anything[/QUOTE]
Islam is incompatible with the West and discussion of it should not be taboo under any circumstance like it is today. You don't hear about these events from Vietnamese or Ukranian migrants in Poland, every controversial event today leads back to Islam and the culture it fosters.
This whole discussion began because someone was making fun of and taking a jab at people showing concerns about Islam in Europe.
[QUOTE=Dzonintz;49971731]Islam is incompatible with the West and discussion of it should not be taboo under any circumstance like it is today. You don't hear about these events from Vietnamese or Ukranian migrants in Poland, every controversial event today leads back to Islam and the culture it fosters.
This whole discussion began because someone was making fun of and taking a jab at people showing concerns about Islam in Europe.[/QUOTE]
but you just said you don't care about how muslims actually behave so this is a very fucking meaningless discussion isn't it?
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;49971713]that is an amazingly insane opinion, and i don't think there's going to be any way of arguing you out of this
if you don't think christianity and islam have changed since their inception, and instead that "people's interpretation of them" has (interpretations of events [B]BEING WHAT RELIGION IS BASED UPON[/B]) then there's no reason to drag this on any further[/QUOTE]
You still haven't said anything of a bigger worth apart from acting surprised and shocked. As I said before, the land ruled by Sharia law today would be the same as the one ruled by Sharia few centuries ago.
I mean whatever, if you don't want to discuss that's fine, but try not to shitpost then
[editline]20th March 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Cone;49971750]but you just said you don't care about how muslims actually behave so this is a very fucking meaningless discussion isn't it?[/QUOTE]
If it's meaningless discussion, then can you stop being part of it and leave? You literally just showed up to this thread and are constantly trying to shut down and dismiss this discussion.
[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;49971709]Can you please tell us where you got certification or a bachelor's in Islam studies? Because otherwise I feel like the authority you're relying on is the one you're sitting on.[/QUOTE]
I'm relying on tennats of Koran, Sina and Hadiths, the trilogy which is the very core of the Islamic doctrine.
[QUOTE=Dzonintz;49971766]You still haven't said anything of a bigger worth apart from acting surprised and shocked. As I said before, the land ruled by Sharia law today would be the same as the one ruled by Sharia few centuries ago.
I mean whatever, if you don't want to discuss that's fine, but try not to shitpost then
[editline]20th March 2016[/editline]
If it's meaningless discussion, then can you stop being part of it and leave? You literally just showed up to this thread and are constantly trying to shut down and dismiss this discussion.[/QUOTE]
peoples interpretations of events are what religions are
you're saying that these religions exist separate of the interpretations, meaning that these religions have some sort of objective existence
the logical conclusion of your position is that, in the event that there were no interpretations that followed the original interpretation, the religion would still exist as it exists separate of the interpretations
that is your held belief
[editline]20th March 2016[/editline]
that islam, as a religion has not changed, apart from the interpretations
that my friend, is like a shitpost in the form of an idea
How can you not comprehend that the trilogy is non-negotiable? How can you interpret differently Mohammed's words, which are perfection?
[quote=Quran chapter 5 verse 3]
..........."this day, those who disbelieved have given up all hope of your religion, so fear them not, but fear Me. This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But as for him who is forced by severe hunger, with no inclination to sin (such can eat these above-mentioned meats), then surely, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."[/quote]
Maybe People would have tried to change Islam too and bend it as per convenience, But Allah in the Quraan has categorically forbidden innovations in Islam, and also not permitted a Muslim, to choose as per convenience what he likes and leave what he feels he cant do.
A Muslim is one who has submitted his Will to Allah, after firm belief that Allah is God by scientifically and critically analyzing His book sent to man as a guide.
As per the preservation of the content of the Quraan, Allah in the Quraan takes it upon Himself to prevent the Quraan from corruption. :
[quote]
We have, without doubt, sent down the Reminder [i.e., the Quran]; and We will assuredly guard it [from corruption].} (Quran chapter 15 verse 9 Al-Hijr 15:9) [/quote]
Create a mass discussion thread on Islam or something similar and I will continue discussion there if needed, since we're severely off-topic now.
You seem to be pretty fucking convinced you know how Islam works, but I'm guessing you aren't a muslim.
I'd rather hear from muslims about their religion than some Serbian dude with obvious bias trying to convince me he knows the objective truth about it as it is actually practiced around the world.
Because I could easily talk about angry Catholics nuns and pretend that's all Christians and what would an ignorant person know to argue against me unless a Protestant walked up and went "uh bullshit"?
Do you know that the grand majority of muslims live in SE Asia?
[QUOTE=Dzonintz;49971834]How can you not comprehend that the trilogy is non-negotiable? How can you interpret differently Mohammed's words, which are perfection?
Maybe People would have tried to change Islam too and bend it as per convenience, But Allah in the Quraan has categorically forbidden innovations in Islam, and also not permitted a Muslim, to choose as per convenience what he likes and leave what he feels he cant do.
A Muslim is one who has submitted his Will to Allah, after firm belief that Allah is God by scientifically and critically analyzing His book sent to man as a guide.
As per the preservation of the content of the Quraan, Allah in the Quraan takes it upon Himself to prevent the Quraan from corruption. :
Create a mass discussion thread on Islam or something similar and I will continue discussion there if needed, since we're severely off-topic now.[/QUOTE]
judging by the fact you haven't covered anything i said in my post, i assume that you are either refuse to budge out of pride, or you've been struck by how absolutely insane your idea of a religion that exists outside of interpretations of it actually is
you're literally arguing for objective concepts, you are now arguing for the platonic interpretation of reality and you probably didn't realise it
[QUOTE=Dzonintz;49971731]I'm not sure if you're misunderstanding me, but according to Islam Mohammed's word [B]is an absolute perfection[/B], it is unchangeable. Islam was designed so it can't be contradicted.[/QUOTE]
And why can't someone contradict it? What's gonna happen? Is the Quran gonna eat them?
[QUOTE=BigJoeyLemons;49971895]And why can't someone contradict it? What's gonna happen? Is the Quran gonna eat them?[/QUOTE]
Allah lightning bolts them [del]and they don't get their 72 virgins[/del] (hey that isn't even in the Koran anywhere, so much for being absolutely unchangeable doctrine preserved for thousands of years utterly intact from the iron age that all muslims follow perfectly and permanently like some sort of hive mind, oops)
If you change everything Dzonintz is saying to be about Christianity he comes off as sounding like reddit-atheist YouTube comments. Just saying.
wait a minute, can his argument change or would that now be a new interpretation of his otherwise immutable original set of beliefs
fuck dzonintz has actually killed reality
[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;49971925]Allah lightning bolts them [del]and they don't get their 72 virgins[/del] (hey that isn't even in the Koran anywhere, so much for being absolutely unchangeable doctrine preserved for thousands of years utterly intact from the iron age that all muslims follow perfectly and permanently like some sort of hive mind, oops)[/QUOTE]
If a religious text has been translated more than like five times, especially before the printing press was invented, it's undeniable that some scribes added and removed some shit. To assume that the text is the same as it was at its inception and that it will never change and the people who use it will never change is to know fucking nothing about anthropology
Syrians used to live fairly normal, if less-free-than-in-the-West, lives before their country got ripped into pieces in the Arab Spring and the catastrophic aftermath. It's good to see proof that their land hasn't been ripped apart for so long that they've forgotten the fundamentals of justice.
[QUOTE=BigJoeyLemons;49971958]If a religious text has been translated more than like five times, especially before the printing press was invented, it's undeniable that some scribes added and removed some shit. To assume that the text is the same as it was at its inception and that it will never change and the people who use it will never change is to know fucking nothing about anthropology[/QUOTE]
Well, aaaaaaaaaaaactually, the Koran does seem to have had special attention on maintaining consistency across time, and the Koran, at least in the Middle East, has not been translated repeatedly as the Bible/etc. has, but has remained in Arabic. The Arabic text is considered the authoritative version and very old copies have been preserved and used to ensure consistency with newer reproductions.
However, the [I]text[/I] remaining unchanged is a very different beast to [I]its reading and interpretation[/I] over time. For example, the cultural subjugation of women in modern Muslim nations varies in severity, from nearly nothing to are you telling me you married a mute tent? However, back in the day, women were allowed on the battlefield and could prove their worth like men; there was a decent and near-trailblazing amount of respect for women in Islam's past, and it's mostly absent from the raperiarchy situation rabid nationalists like to bang on about now.
[QUOTE=Dzonintz;49971731]I'm not sure if you're misunderstanding me, but according to Islam Mohammed's word [B]is an absolute perfection[/B], it is unchangeable. Islam was designed so it can't be contradicted.
Islam is incompatible with the West and discussion of it should not be taboo under any circumstance like it is today. You don't hear about these events from Vietnamese or Ukranian migrants in Poland, every controversial event today leads back to Islam and the culture it fosters.
This whole discussion began because someone was making fun of and taking a jab at people showing concerns about Islam in Europe.[/QUOTE]
His word is absolution, why because he was a prophet, a son of god.
Just like Jesus, people took his word as the word of gods, but guess what people misunderstand, people misinterpret, people can be wrong.
You guys are literally arguing the same point, These guys found someone breaking the law and in turn their gods word BUT they realized it was not their place to be a Judge and to punish him, despite their wants to kill him, they knew that the only fair way to deal with him is through Justice. So how about we stop making the headline to do with the colour of peoples skin and be happy that these guys had the balls to help someone and risk being blamed by media those who would misinterpret the situation.
Wow look at that, its almost as we've been told that these immigrants are here to steal our jobs and rape our women time and time again. Almost as if their actually humans and can integrate into a society and adapt to their surroundings huh.
[sp]This isn't really directed at anyone I guess I just dislike people being judged for nothing[/sp]
Whups, missed this thread and posted my own.
Good to hear that they took him to law enforcement instead of ripping him into pieces
[editline]20th March 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=BigJoeyLemons;49971895]And why can't someone contradict it? What's gonna happen? Is the Quran gonna eat them?[/QUOTE]
That's like the papacy admitting wrongdoing, it's just not allowed
[QUOTE=Rainboo;49973693][B]Can't believe how many people are attempting to put a correlation between this and their status as muslim refugees. What the actual fuck[/B][/QUOTE][B][/B]
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/px3nrUR.png[/IMG]
[QUOTE=TheLaughingGod;49973802][B][/B]
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/px3nrUR.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]
It's a joke, not a rule
[QUOTE=Starlight 456;49973808]It's a joke[/QUOTE]
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