Proof Russia has sent troops into Ukraine? - Vice News
95 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Deng;46482686]Karimatrix, what should the official policy of the Russian government be towards Ukraine?
At present there are a cluster of unrecognized republics in the east of the country, while another province has been annexed. What should be done with them?[/QUOTE]
Not directed at me but Russia should annex all the countries and declare Soviet Union complete.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;46482645]Lets just say you tried, here have a winner for attempt.
Then i think you should rephphrase.
The only thing that bothers you is that i am not saying "Russia is bad, Ukraine is a victim".
Well again, same question - did i ever said that "Hey Ukraine, Annex of Crimea is good for your health!" Or did i proposed "Rebels go liberate all Ukraine, Rebel Ukraine, Better Ukraine!"
No, i only expressed view of Russian goverment's perspective, since i live in Russia and i can filter through barrage of misinformation. Call it my immunity to russian propaganda if you want. Does it mean i deny it there damage to Ukraine? Heck no. We took your land and we unofficially supported rebels! It's bad... bad...
[B]for you[/B]
I hope now i was able to deliver my point on subject, and please, read posts before go with your accusations. I never called you brainwashed or nazi or whatever, neither did i ever called you to go grump to your goverment as far as i can tell.[/QUOTE]
I wasn't telling you that you're brainwashed either, and I don't tell you to hate your government, but it would be nice if you stopped defending your government so much, because they're clearly in the wrong here
[QUOTE=laserguided;46482702]Not directed at me but Russia should annex all the countries and declare Soviet Union complete.[/QUOTE]
Quality post right there. How about we cripple the Moscow government and give the provinces all the power?
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;46482707]I wasn't telling you that you're brainwashed either, and I don't tell you to hate your government, but it would be nice if you stopped defending your government so much, because they're clearly in the wrong here[/QUOTE]
You want him to shutup because he disagrees with you.
[editline]13th November 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Deng;46482721]Quality post right there. How about we cripple the Moscow government and give the provinces all the power?[/QUOTE]
Why? I think the leaders of Russian regions are going to be likely more extreme than Putin will ever be.
[QUOTE=Riller;46481642]Pretty sure other countries don't allow their active duty soldiers to go fight in rebellions in other countries just because they got the weekend off.[/QUOTE]
Well, this did happen just a month ago.
[url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1431056&highlight=Netherlands+Surrender[/url]
[QUOTE=Riller;46481642]Pretty sure other countries don't allow their active duty soldiers to go fight in rebellions in other countries just because they got the weekend off.[/QUOTE]
Do you actually believe that?
It's pretty obvious the Russian soldiers in Ukraine aren't on "vacation".
[QUOTE=laserguided;46482722]You want him to shutup because he disagrees with you.[/QUOTE]
Not really. I want everyone to stop supporting the side that started a war in my country and doesn't even admit it
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;46482773]Not really. I want everyone to stop supporting the side that started a war in my country and doesn't even admit it[/QUOTE]
I see a lot of "It's bad for Ukraine but good for Russia, so it's OK" posts, it's really pathetic.
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;46482773]Not really. I want everyone to stop supporting the side that started a war in my country and doesn't even admit it[/QUOTE]
So? How does that make you a censor?
[QUOTE=Deng;46482686]Karimatrix, what should the official policy of the Russian government be towards Ukraine?
At present there are a cluster of unrecognized republics in the east of the country, while another province has been annexed. What should be done with them?[/QUOTE]
Nothing! A frozen conflict is win for Russian goverment, keep ignoring claims and accusations allow any tech and volunteers to slip in Ukraine. A frozen conflict will ensure that Ukraine is stuck in position unappealing toward NATO or EU, wasting their loans on internal disputes between political parties who sooner or later won't be able to blame every trouble in country on Russia.
Putin's rating will be always high since immensive threat of "nazi ukraine" won't go anywhere.
This also ensures that republics will never ever get in Russia because lets be honest, as i always said, it was for Crimea, anything else if of consequence. Nodoby wants torn region of Donbass in Russia and it's never happening. In long term such conditions woudl lead to Ukranian stagnation and more debts and more trouble and eventually, you guessed it, to new maidan.
As for Crimea - rebuilding rebuilding and more naval and more rockets.
Again, not super pro here, that is my personal view of goverment's aproach.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;46482779]I see a lot of "It's bad for Ukraine but good for Russia, so it's OK" posts, it's really pathetic.[/QUOTE]
It is but that how it works in reality of modern politics.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;46482803]It is but that how it works in reality of modern politics.[/QUOTE]
And you accept it and approve of it and that's also a reality and it's even more pathetic.
[editline]13th November 2014[/editline]
You keep saying "it's from the government's perspective!!" like it erases it being a bad thing.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;46482833]And you accept it and approve of it and that's also a reality and it's even more pathetic.
[editline]13th November 2014[/editline]
You keep saying "it's from the government's perspective!!" like it erases it being a bad thing.[/QUOTE]
Well, why should i be in denial of political reality? That would mean i would understand far less.
If you capable of changing political climate of world, i would gladly help, if not, then you got to adapt or you end up getting confused to death and calling all leaders morons.
And just on top of this page i did say that it's a bad thing, you jsut want me to to go "i don't want to unrderstand anything i want to compalin without consequences!"
[QUOTE=karimatrix;46482856]Well, why should i be in denial of political reality? That would mean i would understand far less.
If you capable of changing political climate of world, i would gladly help, if not, then you got to adapt or you end up getting confused to death and calling all leaders morons.[/QUOTE]
Problem is you're already confused by adapting to such an ideology.
And I didn't say anything about denial of political reality, it's the acceptance that's the problem, genius, that's why you are so confused and believe the things you do. It's people with those views that end up letting their government do whatever they want regardless of the population's opinion and end up getting prejudiced because of it blaming others for something they caused upon themselves.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;46482882]Problem is you're already confused by adapting to such an ideology.
And I didn't say anything about denial of political reality, it's the acceptance that's the problem, genius, that's why you are so confused and believe the things you do. It's people with those views that end up letting their government do whatever they want regardless of the population's opinion and end up getting prejudiced because of it blaming others for something they caused upon themselves.[/QUOTE]
Well as i always said, it's not like our example is first in the world. Everyone accepts it for long now and everyone is rolling with this "ideology". Is it good? Hell no. But has is become soo ubiquitously used that acting by old rules would damage your own game? Yes.
In other words, the moment any country in the world will voluntarily sacrifise it ambitions for happiness of the rest of the world, i'll change my mind immediately.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;46482456]
As if Ukranian Television doesn't do the same. Seriosly, there are levels of bullshit but they are not exclusive to our media.[/QUOTE]
I won't disagree with that either, hell all media has problems with that crap. Just RT and others don't even seem to hide it anymore.
[QUOTE=Pilot1215;46482940]I won't disagree with that either, hell all media has problems with that crap. Just RT and others don't even seem to hide it anymore.[/QUOTE]
So if you hide it, it's ok?
[QUOTE=laserguided;46482962]So if you hide it, it's ok?[/QUOTE]
Did I say that? Sure seems like I never did.
[QUOTE=Pilot1215;46482975]Did I say that? Sure seems like I never did.[/QUOTE]
Where did I say you said that? It's a question, should be implied since it's has a question mark.
[QUOTE=laserguided;46482983]Where did I say you said that? It's a question, should be implied since it's has a question mark.[/QUOTE]
What if I say you did say he said that? How does that make you feel?
[editline]13th November 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=laserguided;46482780]So? How does that make you a censor?[/QUOTE]
It doesn't
[QUOTE=laserguided;46482983]Where did I say you said that? It's a question, should be implied since it's has a question mark.[/QUOTE]
Answer to the question would be no. No propaganda is ok. People should be able to tune into the media to get the actual truth about what is going on, no matter how bad it makes the government look. I understand that will never occur, but that is how it should be. The people deserve the truth, and only the truth.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;46482645]
No, i only expressed view of Russian goverment's perspective, since i live in Russia and i can filter through barrage of misinformation. Call it my immunity to russian propaganda if you want. Does it mean i deny it there damage to Ukraine? Heck no. We took your land and we unofficially supported rebels! It's bad... bad...
[B]for you[/B]
I hope now i was able to deliver my point on subject, and please, read posts before go with your accusations. I never called you brainwashed or nazi or whatever, neither did i ever called you to go grump to your goverment as far as i can tell.[/QUOTE]
OK, now it's my turn to 'deliver my point on subject'.
The only thing that bothers me is the lack of basic empathy and bullshit you are pushing here like 'you can buy those uniforms in any store out there' and 'those tanks/APCs/weapons were stolen by webuls not given from Russia', et cetera. No, you weren't saying over the edge crap like 'annex of Crimea is good for Ukraine!
Well, I am not so patriotic at all and I express my own views, even though I live in Ukraine and completely support my government's actions on the east. You know what's the best immunity against any propaganda? Don't listen to any kind of it. Especially ukrainian and russian ones. Everything I see from you for now is just a standard Kiselyov-style speech and idiotic lines like 'it's only a cold calculation and nothing more'. In fact, i think your lovely government didn't calculate that agreement with China which turned out to be unprofitable and a credit that China's government denied to Russia. The other thing that your cold-hearted loving government didn't calculate is the inflation of ruble. As your minister of economics said: 'sanctions are only good for us' and 'if we let the ruble float freely it will stabilize itself very quickly', I guess it's time to convert your rubles to dollars mate. You wanted war? Here, have an economical one.
Yes, i do read through your posts and this is my opinion on them. I do think you are a brainwashed idiot.
I forgot to mention: i rated you winner too, sweetie :*
[QUOTE=ViPeRD;46483099]OK, now it's my turn to 'deliver my point on subject'.
The only thing that bothers me is the lack of basic empathy and bullshit you are pushing here like 'you can buy those uniforms in any store out there' and 'those tanks/APCs/weapons were stolen by webuls not given from Russia', et cetera. No, you weren't saying over the edge crap like 'annex of Crimea is good for Ukraine!
Well, I am not so patriotic at all and I express my own views, even though I live in Ukraine and completely support my government's actions on the east. You know what's the best immunity against any propaganda? Don't listen to any kind of it. Especially ukrainian and russian ones. Everything I see from you for now is just a standard Kiselyov-style speech and idiotic lines like 'it's only a cold calculation and nothing more'. In fact, i think your lovely government didn't calculate that agreement with China which turned out to be unprofitable and a credit that China's government denied to Russia. The other thing that your cold-hearted loving government didn't calculate is the inflation of ruble. As your minister of economics said: 'sanctions are only good for us' and 'if we let the ruble float freely it will stabilize itself very quickly', I guess it's time to convert your rubles to dollars mate. You wanted war? Here, have an economical one.
Yes, i do read through your posts and this is my opinion on them. I do think you are a brainwashed idiot.[/QUOTE]
First thing first - read rules of forum.
Second - you came in here trying to pull comedy shull with "russian imageboard memes" but now suddenly turn serious with analysis. Are you even from this place?
Third - before claiming i posted about some uniforms go actually read my posts rather then claim you do or since you "readed" my posts quote them as proof.
Fourth - Kiselev style propaganda would be me talking about nazi in ukraine and how we liberate ukraine from fascist who eat children. If you are not familiar with topic, do not try to associate it with me. You merely confuse people.
Fifth - when i mention "cold blooded calculative persons" i do not mean people capable of seeying future or chess masters. Soo no need to play on that, it's just silly. They might be calculatibe in methods but stil not foresee all the consequences.
Sixth - i actually readed through your posts cause there is only few and I do think you simply tried but failed, soo here is another winner for the attempt.
Cause it's only thing you winning with such arguments soo far.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;46483418]First thing first - read rules of forum.
Second - you came in here trying to pull comedy shull with "russian imageboard memes" but now suddenly turn serious with analysis. Are you even from this place?
Third - before claiming i posted about some uniforms go actually read my posts rather then claim you do or since you "readed" my posts quote them as proof.
Fourth - Kiselev style propaganda would be me talking about nazi in ukraine and how we liberate ukraine from fascist who eat children. If you are not familiar with topic, do not try to associate it with me. You merely confuse people.
Fifth - when i mention "cold blooded calculative persons" i do not mean people capable of seeying future or chess masters. Soo no need to play on that, it's just silly. They might be calculatibe in methods but stil not foresee all the consequences.
Sixth - i actually readed through your posts cause there is only few and I do think you simply tried but failed, soo here is another winner for the attempt.
Cause it's only thing you winning with such arguments soo far.[/QUOTE]
You completely ignored the point that these actions are destroying the Russian economy.
[QUOTE=Kybalt;46483480]You completely ignored the point that these actions are destroying the Russian economy.[/QUOTE]
And you completely ignored what i just replied to him, this part to be precise, since i am not arguing about consequences, but rather an attemp to bend my words.
[quote]Fifth - when i mention "cold blooded calculative persons" i do not mean people capable of seeying future or chess masters. Soo no need to play on that, it's just silly. They might be calculatibe in methods but stil not foresee all the consequences.[/quote]
And i would not say our economy is "destroying".
Moscow reporting, we are all alive and well.
Also karimatrix, its all well and good to say that 'Oh well these are just governments and of course they're going to be sociopathic in nature because its the only logical approach'. However that entire argument is fundamentally flawed. International relations are not a zero-sum game, because economics isn't a zero sum game. If Russia had taken a less retarded approach they could have even had their buffer state. Instead they took the approach that would have made sense, maybe 30-40 years ago, because that's what Putin knows. However, the world is very different now. I mean you're literally talking to people who live in the country your country is invading right now. Oh and I don't know if you realize this, but people die in wars, on both sides. So is this war worth the hundreds or thousands of deaths that will result? Fuck no. Your government is actively ruining your country's future standing in the world, and you seem perfectly fine with it.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;46483504]And i would not say our economy is "destroying".
Moscow reporting, we are all alive and well.[/QUOTE]
The ruble is rapidly losing value and the central government is stretched for money. There is high inflation, and Crimea has to have pretty much everything shipped in at great expense to the Russian government.
Russia is dependent on foreign markets, and has been for well over a century.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/CqOd6nb.png[/img]
Pictured: A fine economy according to karimatrix.
[QUOTE=Kybalt;46483525]Also karimatrix, its all well and good to say that 'Oh well these are just governments and of course they're going to be sociopathic in nature because its the only logical approach'. However that entire argument is fundamentally flawed. International relations are not a zero-sum game, because economics isn't a zero sum game. If Russia had taken a less retarded approach they could have even had their buffer state. Instead they took the approach that would have made sense, maybe 30-40 years ago, because that's what Putin knows. However, the world is very different now. I mean you're literally talking to people who live in the country your country is invading right now. Oh and I don't know if you realize this, but people die in wars, on both sides. So is this war worth the hundreds or thousands of deaths that will result? Fuck no. Your government is actively ruining your country's future standing in the world, and you seem perfectly fine with it.[/QUOTE]
You say that as if it's a first conflict in world. And again, yes i know people are casualities. On both sides and nobody happy for that. But again, it's not a first war, stop trying to pretend that something anamalous is happening just because the side you're supporting is getting damaged.
Because the moment there is conflict in wich you are good guys, even if you are invading other country you will say "Oh yeah, it's war, there are casualities sometimes but we gotta do it". and you won't protest it or anything. You will support it, you will believe in cause and all this argument you try to show me now will vaporize.
Like i said, the moment any country surrenders it ambitions i would look at my goverment with incredibly deep concern and say "There is better way now".
[editline]14th November 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Kybalt;46483558][img]http://i.imgur.com/CqOd6nb.png[/img]
Pictured: A fine economy according to karimatrix.[/QUOTE]
I would like to remind you that not all countries are solely dependant on value of their currency, russian citizens expecially. Again, i can say that for Moscow only thoought
[editline]14th November 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Deng;46483555]The ruble is rapidly losing value and the central government is stretched for money. There is high inflation, and Crimea has to have pretty much everything shipped in at great expense to the Russian government.
Russia is dependent on foreign markets, and has been for well over a century.[/QUOTE]
It always fascinates me how i am the one who lives in Russia, yet you know soo much more about Crimea, export/import pricing and our contracts with China and anything else.
Your Sources?
[QUOTE=karimatrix;46483585]You say that as if it's a first conflict in world. And again, yes i know people are casualities. On both sides and nobody happy for that. But again, it's not a first war, stop trying to pretend that something anamalous is happening just because the side you're supporting is getting damaged.[/QUOTE]
You didn't make a single rational point here, argument from history is not a good reason for anything. Genocide is bad, yet basically up until the 21st century its been very common. (Still happens but its an improving situation). This war will not benefit Russia, its an extremely sub-optimal allocation of resources. It wont improve the standard of living for Russians, nor will it improve your economy.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;46483585]
Because the moment there is conflict in wich you are good guys, even if you are invading other country you will say "Oh yeah, it's war, there are casualities sometimes but we gotta do it". and you won't protest it or anything. You will support it, you will believe in cause and all this argument you try to show me now will vaporize.[/QUOTE]
No. You will say that. You have absolutely no logic to base this off of. All you're doing basically is this: [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_projection_fallacy[/url]
[QUOTE=karimatrix;46483585]Like i said, the moment any country surrenders it ambitions i would look at my goverment with incredibly deep concern and say "There is better way now".[/QUOTE]
There is a better way now. War is not economically productive.
[editline]13th November 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=karimatrix;46483585]I would like to remind you that not all countries are solely dependant on value of their currency, russian citizens expecially. Again, i can say that for Moscow only thoought
[/QUOTE]
The point isn't about the day to day life of a Russian citizen. Of course they're averagely happy. Human beings are incredibly good at adapting to any situation. In fact happyness polls are about average anywhere in the world, whether you do that poll in 3rd world countries or 1st world countries. However, I think it's pretty obvious that living in a 1st world country is better than living in a 3rd world country.
On the other hand, half of the Russian economy is oil and gas exports in a world where renewables are now cost competitive. Your entire argument is basically that Russia wants to remain a mediocre country, and you're not the least bit upset by it.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;46483585]It always fascinates me how i am the one who lives in Russia, yet you know soo much more about Crimea, export/import pricing and our contracts with China and anything else.
Your Sources?[/QUOTE]
For the ruble:
[URL]http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=USD&to=RUB&view=1Y[/URL]
For the central government not having money:
[URL]http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/09/17/uk-ukraine-crisis-russia-budget-idUKKBN0HC1RF20140917[/URL]
[URL]http://nationalinterest.org/feature/the-bear-has-no-claws-russias-massive-military-modernization-11445[/URL]
For high inflation:
[URL]http://www.tradingeconomics.com/russia/inflation-cpi[/URL]
[URL]http://uk.businessinsider.com/russian-inflation-hits-8-and-there-are-food-shortages-2014-10?r=US[/URL]
For Crimea being costly:
[URL]http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/11/crimea-russia-ukraine-change-annexation[/URL]
[URL]http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5a2d7b3c-667e-11e4-9c0c-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3IzrIWbaG[/URL]
[URL]https://www.ooskanews.com/story/2014/11/sevastopol-running-out-water-authorities-implement-rationing_162875[/URL]
Also I don't get what distance has to do with knowing about a place. You're ages away from Crimea and it's a part of Ukraine to boot.
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