No matter what happens by August 2nd, civilization isn't going to collapse. We've had a failure in the past to raise our debt ceiling.
The world as we know is just going to change, which is a HUGE difference. We might very well return to non-globalization and a world much more disconnected from one another.
On the flipside, that could also mean the US doesn't act as a policing power, but just a huge power in the West.
Raise revenue by taxing corporations and severely decreasing the defense budget.
[QUOTE=Reimu;31448079]No matter what happens by August 2nd, civilization isn't going to collapse. We've had a failure in the past to raise our debt ceiling.
The world as we know is just going to change, which is a HUGE difference. We might very well return to non-globalization and a world much more disconnected from one another.
On the flipside, that could also mean the US doesn't act as a policing power, but just a huge power in the West.[/QUOTE]
Do you really understand the impacts defaulting will have? Do you?
[QUOTE=Miskatonic;31448204]Raise revenue by taxing corporations and severely decreasing the defense budget.[/QUOTE]
this is the other way to break the country
[editline]31st July 2011[/editline]
well, not break, but limit even further.
[QUOTE=Contag;31448446]this is the other way to break the country
[editline]31st July 2011[/editline]
well, not break, but limit even further.[/QUOTE]
How would that break the country? Corporate tax rates are insanely low.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;31448493]How would that break the country? Corporate tax rates are insanely low.[/QUOTE]
push shares lower, give cause for offshore movement, loss of jobs, slower growth, whiny business leaders
[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/36/Income_Taxes_By_Country.svg/500px-Income_Taxes_By_Country.svg.png[/img]
eh?
tax your fucking rich (thanks for that obama and bush)
[editline]31st July 2011[/editline]
then again, I'd take that graph with a mountain of salt, as the maximum income tax bracket in the US is 30%... perhaps taking into account state income tax?
[QUOTE=Contag;31448542]then again, I'd take that graph with a mountain of salt, as the maximum income tax bracket in the US is 30%... perhaps taking into account state income tax?[/QUOTE]
35% actually.
Also, there's been an update on the deal, and here's what the current thing on the table looks like right now:
[B]-$2.8 trillion deal. It would raise the debt ceiling by that amount through 2012 and make equal spending cuts.
-$1 trillion in cuts would be agreed now.
-Special committee appointed by Congress would recommend a second installment of savings of about $1.8 trillion.
-If Congress cannot agree on how to implement the cuts recommended by the committee, automatic cuts would be triggered, including reductions in military spending and cost savings to the Medicare health care program for the elderly. Benefit cuts would not be triggered though.
-No cuts in Social Security. [/B]
These details are courtesy of Reuters.
As I understand it this is the Democrat's proposal with elements from the concessions they've made on behalf of the Republicans. Harry Reid as well as Nancy Pelosi have sworn that there will be no more cuts to social services like Social Security without revenue increases.
Hm. Not great, but it looks promising.
[QUOTE=Dr_Funk;31446956]how the hell do so many people literally think there will be a collapse of civilization
all the "guys i'm seriously buying a gun and stocking up on disaster-supplies" is weirding me out[/QUOTE]
I thought FP in general would weird you out.
[QUOTE=MrEndangered;31448983]Hm. Not great, but it looks promising.[/QUOTE]
Better than a default, that's for sure. And the folks who need it will get their social security checks. However, the problem is that this bill will be tough to get past the House because the majority of Republican Representatives in the House aren't on board, and the Tea Party Representatives definitely aren't on board.
On Wikipedia, it says a yale Knight Professor (does he ride a horse?) of Economics said that not only could Obama use the 14th amendment to declare the debt unconstitutional, the treasury could mint 2 platinum coins worth $1 trillion each and pay off their debts using those.
[QUOTE=Randdalf;31449342]On Wikipedia, it says a yale Knight Professor (does he ride a horse?) of Economics said that not only could Obama use the 14th amendment to declare the debt unconstitutional, the treasury could mint 2 platinum coins worth $1 trillion each and pay off their debts using those.[/QUOTE]
But how will the Chinese accept those platinum coins?
[QUOTE=Randdalf;31449342]On Wikipedia, it says a yale Knight Professor (does he ride a horse?) of Economics said that not only could Obama use the 14th amendment to declare the debt unconstitutional, the treasury could mint 2 platinum coins worth $1 trillion each and pay off their debts using those.[/QUOTE]
Trillion dollar coins?
[QUOTE=Randdalf;31449342]On Wikipedia, it says a yale Knight Professor (does he ride a horse?) of Economics said that not only could Obama use the 14th amendment to declare the debt unconstitutional, the treasury could mint 2 platinum coins worth $1 trillion each and pay off their debts using those.[/QUOTE]
I just want to imagine the conversation that would follow if those coins were minted.
"Gentlemen, our debt!"
and then the press goes apeshit.
[QUOTE=Randdalf;31449342]On Wikipedia, it says a yale Knight Professor (does he ride a horse?) of Economics said that not only could Obama use the 14th amendment to declare the debt unconstitutional, the treasury could mint 2 platinum coins worth $1 trillion each and pay off their debts using those.[/QUOTE]
[img]http://i.ytimg.com/vi/M2Jh3xlKtm8/0.jpg[/img]
Now YOU can get a brand new trillion dollar platinum coin! Hot from the mint this vintage coin can be yours for only two simple payments of one trillion dollars.
[QUOTE=Reimu;31448079]No matter what happens by August 2nd, civilization isn't going to collapse. We've had a failure in the past to raise our debt ceiling.
The world as we know is just going to change, which is a HUGE difference. We might very well return to non-globalization and a world much more disconnected from one another.
On the flipside, that could also mean the US doesn't act as a policing power, but just a huge power in the West.[/QUOTE]
For one, no we haven't. The US has never failed to raise the debt ceiling since we started doing it in the 70s.
Two, if we default there's a very very good chance we, and the rest of the world, will slip into another great depression. That's not a recession mind you, but an actual depression on par or worse than the last one back in the 30s.
[QUOTE=SwissArmyKnife;31449509]For one, no we haven't. The US has never failed to raise the debt ceiling since we started doing it in the 70s.
Two, if we default there's a very very good chance we, and the rest of the world, will slip into another great depression. That's not a recession mind you, but an actual depression on par or worse than the last one back in the 30s.[/QUOTE]
Indeed.
I seriously doubt that if the US defaults the rest of the world will somehow "slip into another great depression" as well.
About the platinum coins from Wikipedia:
[quote]...he points out that the U.S. Treasury has the power to issue platinum coins in any denomination, so it could solve the debt ceiling crisis by simply issuing two platinum coins in denominations of one trillion dollars each, depositing them into its account in the Federal Reserve, and writing checks on the proceeds.[/quote]
[QUOTE=Randdalf;31449645]About the platinum coins from Wikipedia:[/QUOTE]
If they could really do that, why haven't they done it before and why wouldn't we just use it to pay off all of our debt right now?
Edit
So basically, were fucked? Welp, I'm preparing for another Depression.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;31449694]If they could really do that, why haven't they done it before and why wouldn't we just use it to pay off all of our debt right now?[/QUOTE]
Wouldn't this mean significant inflation?
[QUOTE=Melnek;31449588]I seriously doubt that if the US defaults the rest of the world will somehow "slip into another great depression" as well.[/QUOTE]
Defaulting means the US dollar and our credit rating goes down the toilet. This means the US and most US based business will no longer be able to invest abroad, not only that but in the US inflation will be pretty severe resulting in conditions very similar to the great depression. Now this ripples and causes the same issues in other countries.
A global economy can't just stop being a global economy, when one of it's major players goes into a depression it's dragging everyone else down with it.
Obamas dream world won't work, i hope you know that my young american leftist friends. Obamas healthcare plans are irresponsible, there is no money and it won't open any job situations to justify it's price tag. If you increased your taxes a lot for everyone, removed tax reduction for big companies perhaps you might be able to fund it.
Right now though it's just stupid, the military budget is however ten times more stupid.
The higher you climb the harder you fall and when the US do your banks won't stand a chance. A big majority of the population will lose their money. It will also bring down countless of other bound to the dollar. The US will crash and burn just like Iceland did, people lost their earnings and savings, but that's how the world works.
[QUOTE=SwissArmyKnife;31449797]Defaulting means the US dollar and our credit rating goes down the toilet. This means the US and most US based business will no longer be able to invest abroad, not only that but in the US inflation will be pretty severe resulting in conditions very similar to the great depression. Now this ripples and causes the same issues in other countries.
A global economy can't just stop being a global economy, when one of it's major players goes into a depression it's dragging everyone else down with it.[/QUOTE]
I understand that, but I'm pretty certain that most powerful countries would be able to easily bounce back from the loses in a relativity short period of time.
[QUOTE=Sexy Eskimo;31449839]Obamas dream world won't work, i hope you know that my young american leftist friends. Obamas healthcare plans are irresponsible, there is no money and it won't open any job situations to justify it's price tag. If you increased your taxes a lot for everyone, removed tax reduction for big companies perhaps you might be able to fund it.
Right now though it's just stupid, the military budget is however ten times more stupid.
The higher you climb the harder you fall and when the US do your banks won't stand a chance. A big majority of the population will lose their money. It will also bring down countless of other bound to the dollar. The US will crash and burn just like Iceland did, people lost their earnings and savings, but that's how the world works.[/QUOTE]
You really think Obama is trying to do "Leftist" things? That's just not the case.
[editline]31st July 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Melnek;31449884]I understand that, but I'm pretty certain that most powerful countries would be able to easily bounce back from the loses in a relativity short period of time.[/QUOTE]
Why?
[QUOTE=Sexy Eskimo;31449839]Obamas dream world won't work, i hope you know that my young american leftist friends. Obamas healthcare plans are irresponsible, there is no money and it won't open any job situations to justify it's price tag. If you increased your taxes a lot for everyone, removed tax reduction for big companies perhaps you might be able to fund it.
Right now though it's just stupid, the military budget is however ten times more stupid.
The higher you climb the harder you fall and when the US do your banks won't stand a chance. A big majority of the population will lose their money. It will also bring down countless of other bound to the dollar. The US will crash and burn just like Iceland did, people lost their earnings and savings, but that's how the world works.[/QUOTE]
Oh good, you found the megathread. I wanted to reply to your post in the Obama Speech thread but it was sensibly closed. Here it is anyway.
[quote]Obama is a idiot if he thinks increasing the debt is a sustainable solution. He is going to turn into a oxymoron! Time to save money! So let's give everyone free healthcare! Let build new homes for homeless! Don't have any plans for welfare and fuck employment services!
The higher you climb the harder you fall, and when America finally do all the banks will be royally screwed and people will lose their money or all it's worth. But the majority deserve it.
I'm with the republicans on this one, hell if the republicans even plans on major cuts on the military i might even vote for them if i lived in the states.[/quote]
I don't think you understand how economy works and especially how the US economy works. For one if you're going to pull a country out of a recession you need [i]both[/i] spending and budget cuts. If you don't do both you're only getting halfway out of the hole.
Reviving the economy isn't as simple as just "Don't spend money!" because that's not how running a country works. Personally I'm an independent but as for the healthcare thing, the Republicans were the ones to completely fuck that turkey up. Prior to having to make a lot of concessions to the Republicans in power at the time it would have promoted a lot of job growth as well as fixing the pretty terrible 'you only get medical attention if you're middle class or higher' system we had prior.
[quote]I understand that, but I'm pretty certain that most powerful countries would be able to easily bounce back from the loses in a relativity short period of time. [/quote]
The problem is that if one large trading power goes down the others go with it, and that has a ripple effect of taking the powers they trade with down with them. So it's like dominoes. While Israel may not be directly affected by the US' default, in actuality it very much would, the major powers you trade with would suffer economic down turn and then in turn so would you.
[QUOTE=Fort83;31441982]All they want is Obama out of office and to ban/kill/arrest all gays and anything homosexual, as well as ban evolution and put creationism in every school.[/QUOTE]This makes it seem like we're way too lenient with these people. Or rather you are. Any other place would have given them mental help by now. You just put them in empowered positions. I'm starting to think, more and more, that you've only got yourselves to thanks for this shit...
[editline]31st July 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;31446969]remember what happened to the Roman Empire back in the day?[/QUOTE]It declined over 500 years. The US will decline in under a year if this happens. BIG DIFFERENCE!
[QUOTE=SwissArmyKnife;31449509]For one, no we haven't. The US has never failed to raise the debt ceiling since we started doing it in the 70s.
Two, if we default there's a very very good chance we, and the rest of the world, will slip into another great depression. That's not a recession mind you, but an actual depression on par or worse than the last one back in the 30s.[/QUOTE]
What about Newt Gingrich's failure to raise it in the 1990s?
Yeah, but no one knows FOR SURE what's going to happen because this specific situation has never happened before. And even when we did have a Great Depression, that doesn't mean AT ALL that civilization is going to collapse. Stop saying that the world is going to burn when we're looking at a situation that is purely speculation based on various issues and factors. No one can even agree what the future of the world would be if the US defaults.
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