[QUOTE=Bomimo;31449926]This makes it seem like we're way too lenient with these people. Or rather you are. Any other place would have given them mental help by now. You just put them in empowered positions. I'm starting to think, more and more, that you've only got yourselves to thanks for this shit...[/quote]
If the Republicans force us to default to try and get Obama out of office they could be charged with seditious conspiracy. Because they'd basically be fucking over the country to further their own private goals.
[QUOTE=Reimu;31449997]What about Newt Gingrich's failure to raise it in the 1990s?
Yeah, but no one knows FOR SURE what's going to happen because this has never happened before. And even when we did have a Great Depression, that doesn't mean AT ALL that civilization is going to collapse. Stop saying that the world is going to burn when we're looking at a situation that is purely speculation based on various issues and factors. No one can even agree what the future of the world would be if the US defaults.[/QUOTE]
I can't find anything on Gingrich failing to raise the ceiling in the 90s. It may have failed to pass in congress or the senate but I think the precedent now is if it fails to pass it'll lead to a default.
I'm not saying the world will end, I'm also not saying civilization will collapse. I'm saying there's a good chance we'll be looking forward to another depression possibly within the year though, well economists can wager a guess at what the world situation will be like and theirs is the most accurate prediction we have.
I did people to be prepared for the worst, but that's just because I'm a sucker for preparedness.
[QUOTE=SwissArmyKnife;31449923]The problem is that if one large trading power goes down the others go with it, and that has a ripple effect of taking the powers they trade with down with them. So it's like dominoes. While Israel may not be directly affected by the US' default, in actuality it very much would, the major powers you trade with would suffer economic down turn and then in turn so would you.[/QUOTE]
Israel has nothing to do with anything, if the US goes down, it's pretty damn obvious Israel will begin to quickly degrade as well seeing as they're butt buddies.
I'm talking about countries like Russia, China, India, Brazil, and whilst not a country, the EU will most certainly be able to push through the US' great depression well.
[QUOTE=Sexy Eskimo;31449839]Obamas dream world won't work, i hope you know that my young american leftist friends. Obamas healthcare plans are irresponsible, there is no money and it won't open any job situations to justify it's price tag. If you increased your taxes a lot for everyone, removed tax reduction for big companies perhaps you might be able to fund it.[/QUOTE]
No, he's already budgeted it for. It's already been shown to be sustainable over a period of 10 years. They wouldn't introduce something they know they couldn't pay, they have bills to pay, you'know. However, it's not exactly Obama's dream - it's a hollow shell of a bill that was passed because of compromises that made it pretty weak.
[QUOTE=Sexy Eskimo;31449839]Right now though it's just stupid, the military budget is however ten times more stupid.[/QUOTE]
Republicans refuse a military spending cut. What can you do?
[QUOTE=Sexy Eskimo;31449839]The higher you climb the harder you fall and when the US do your banks won't stand a chance. A big majority of the population will lose their money. It will also bring down countless of other bound to the dollar. The US will crash and burn just like Iceland did, people lost their earnings and savings, but that's how the world works.[/QUOTE]
Starting with a cliche always makes your argument more compelling. He knows that, but the easy way to fix this problem would simply be letting them raise the debt ceiling and worry about a debt reduction plan after. They did it 10 times for Bush, why not once for Obama? It's ridiculous.
[QUOTE=Melnek;31450022]Israel has nothing to do with anything, if the US goes down, it's pretty damn obvious Israel will begin to quickly degrade as well seeing as they're butt buddies.
I'm talking about countries like Russia, China, India, Brazil, and whilst not a country, the EU will most certainly be able to push through the US' great depression well.[/QUOTE]
I just gave Israel as an example because that's where your IP, and FP account say you're from.
Well China would be in trouble because they depend heavily on the US for their exports, their economy pretty much relies upon it. I guess Russia and the EU could soldier through it with oil trade but with the EU's financial situation what it is with Greece and Ireland I don't think it'd stand a good chance of getting back up on it's feet, not anytime soon anyway.
The main issue is that nowhere's exactly thriving right now, so taking a big economic hit like the US and other world powers going into a depression or deeper recession knocks them deeper down the hole as well.
[QUOTE=SwissArmyKnife;31449998]If the Republicans force us to default to try and get Obama out of office they could be charged with seditious conspiracy. Because they'd basically be fucking over the country to further their own private goals.
[/QUOTE]
The funny thing about that is that every "news outlet" in America will paint the situation in their own light, never relating the objective truth, leaving your country in turmoil over it. All the while the European news networks will be dealing out the objective truth. You won't even be able to be sure that they were doing just that because of right wing news outlets taking sides. Your news networks are just as fucked as the African and middle-eastern... In fact, that is true for almost everything in your country. You're not a balanced nation at all. Call me weird, but i just don't get why you guys can live there?
Or rather. America has no news networks. It's all political propaganda and gossip...
[QUOTE=Melnek;31450022]Israel has nothing to do with anything, if the US goes down, it's pretty damn obvious Israel will begin to quickly degrade as well seeing as they're butt buddies.
I'm talking about countries like Russia, China, India, Brazil, and whilst not a country, the EU will most certainly be able to push through the US' great depression well.[/QUOTE]
yes the EU is trading more with the Asian horde than ever before
[QUOTE=SwissArmyKnife;31449998]
I can't find anything on Gingrich failing to raise the ceiling in the 90s. It may have failed to pass in congress or the senate but I think the precedent now is if it fails to pass it'll lead to a default.
I'm not saying the world will end, I'm also not saying civilization will collapse. I'm saying there's a good chance we'll be looking forward to another depression possibly within the year though, well economists can wager a guess at what the world situation will be like and theirs is the most accurate prediction we have.
I did people to be prepared for the worst, but that's just because I'm a sucker for preparedness.[/QUOTE]
In 1995 there was a government shutdown due to an inability to pass the US budget in 1995 - 1996. iirc that also means the debt limit was not increased, because the debt ceiling increases with the budget automatically. It strongly impacted the economy, but not significantly.
I think it's good to be prepared, but I don't think it's necessarily right to say that a Great Depression is looming. The world is most likely going to change by August 15th if the US defaults, but, well, if economists can't say for sure what's going to happen, we can only take a wager.
[QUOTE=Bomimo;31450092]The funny thing about that is that every "news outlet" in America will paint the situation in their own light, never relating the objective truth, leaving your country in turmoil over it. All the while the European news networks will be dealing out the objective truth. You won't even be able to be sure that they were doing just that because of right wing news outlets taking sides. Your news networks are just as fucked as the African and middle-eastern... In fact, that is true for almost everything in your country. You're not a balanced nation at all. Call me weird, but i just don't get why you guys can live there?[/QUOTE]
The problem is that the news networks are all privately owned, and because of that they have the right to say whatever they want regardless of how non-factual it is. Which is why you have networks like FOX news that is primarily Republican owned.
To be fair pretty much all major news networks these days push for sensationalist and biased stories because that's what sells. It's not just US networks either, the BBC does it.
The US is an experiment in capitalism that was started in an old Republic testing tube. It has it's ups and downs. Our government and media outlets aren't the culmination of our parts though, there's a lot of really great things about the country. Just like there's great things about every country.
[QUOTE=Reimu;31450129]In 1995 there was a government shutdown due to an inability to pass the US budget in 1995 - 1996. iirc that also means the debt limit was not increased, because the debt ceiling increases with the budget automatically. It strongly impacted the economy, but not significantly.
I think it's good to be prepared, but I don't think it's necessarily right to say that a Great Depression is looming. The world is most likely going to change by August 15th if the US defaults, but, well, if economists can't say for sure what's going to happen, we can only take a wager.[/QUOTE]
I meant that the shutdown didn't lead to a default in our debt. The whole issue with the debt ceiling right now is it will lead to default. The default will strongly impact the economy, hell we had the government lockdown a back in May I think and it didn't hurt too much. A default is an entirely different issue.
Well yeah, everything I'm saying is all just trying to make as educated a guess as possible. I don't know what the future holds more than anybody else. There's no 100% chance the US would drop down to a depression if we default it's just what would most likely happen. Mainly because of inflation rates due to the dollar's value dropping along with interest rates rising a lot.
[QUOTE=Reimu;31450129]In 1995 there was a government shutdown due to an inability to pass the US budget in 1995 - 1996. iirc that also means the debt limit was not increased, because the debt ceiling increases with the budget automatically. It strongly impacted the economy, but not significantly.
I think it's good to be prepared, but I don't think it's necessarily right to say that a Great Depression is looming. The world is most likely going to change by August 15th if the US defaults, but, well, if economists can't say for sure what's going to happen, we can only take a wager.[/QUOTE]
The difference between that and this is that was a temporary government shutdown, and this will be a default on our debt. They're two very different things.
Fuck yeah, Australia.
Geopolitical issues aside, Australia doesn't stand to be extremely affected by the US defaulting. Although they constituted ~4% of our exports in 2010, the major industries are agriculture and beer, and our dollar is making that fairly uncompetitive as is. In addition, the US constituted 12% of our imports. As long as those industries don't collapse, anyhow.
[QUOTE=SwissArmyKnife;31449998]If the Republicans force us to default to try and get Obama out of office they could be charged with seditious conspiracy. Because they'd basically be fucking over the country to further their own private goals.[/QUOTE]
[quote=U.S. Legal Code]§ 2384. Seditious conspiracy
If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.[/quote]
You might have something there...
[QUOTE=RichyZ;31450809]i hope you know it will be a domino effect, uk gets hurt, you get hurt[/QUOTE]
I wish you had some semblance of understanding of the world. Although the Commonwealth is ostensibly our sovereign state, Australia has a far greater and more intense relationship with the United States.
Australia's total trade with the United Kingdom is only ~3%. We trade more with Germany, or Malaysia, or Thailand, than we do with the UK.
[QUOTE=Madman_Andre;31451217][QUOTE=SwissArmyKnife;31449998]If the Republicans force us to default to try and get Obama out of office they could be charged with seditious conspiracy. Because they'd basically be fucking over the country to further their own private goals.[/QUOTE]
[quote=U.S. Legal Code]§ 2384. Seditious conspiracy
If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.[/quote]
You might have something there...[/QUOTE]
don't worry guys I have contacted the authorities
[img]http://gyazo.com/a1d0cf3178adb4d776ef2aa57fb1a7f7.png[/img]
[QUOTE=RichyZ;31451273]wasn't the point, i hope you know that this will fuck everyone up, i just used the uk as a basis because they export mainly to the us[/QUOTE]
if by mainly you mean 15%
I really don't think this will 'fuck everyone up'. I'm calling it - will not destroy the global economic system.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;31451556]15% is still a rather large amount, and don't forget about the asian countries, whom we import a fuckton of stuff from[/QUOTE]
yes, fortunately the united states isn't going to implode, because the collapse of the global economy is in no one's best interests (except the republicans so they can blame it on obama)
[QUOTE=SwissArmyKnife;31449998]If the Republicans force us to default to try and get Obama out of office they could be charged with seditious conspiracy. Because they'd basically be fucking over the country to further their own private goals.[/QUOTE]
Won't happen. All politicians do it, and have been doing it for the better part of a century. To do so would set a precedent that could threaten them in the future.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;31447715]The Roman Empire declined slowly and painfully over the course of a few centuries. It was a mainly militaristic machine that survived by continual expansion, feeding slaves, wealth and new technologies back to Rome. In the 2nd century it was the most powerful empire on earth yet was beginning to decline. It's conquests slowed to a stop and the rich within its borders grew fat and decadent. Rome began to live off its stored capital, mainly spending wealth on luxuries from the far east or on the military. Agriculture was being increasingly ran in larger and larger agricultural estates. The Nerva-Antoine dynasty managed to keep things going ok till Commodus came along. Due to much work being done by unpaid slaves and the agricultural estates being essentially self-sufficient there was very little in the way of capital flowing around and many (free) unemployed poor people survived off the state by being given free bread and entertainment so as to keep them happy.
However Romes coffers gradually emptied and tax rates began to rise to pay for the military to keep away barbarian tribes, then they even began to hire these barbarians as mercenaries to do their work. Much later Rome did not pay these mercenaries adequately and so they began to simply wrest the wealth themselves through theft and looting. When its own army became restless the invading tribes poured in the empire and troops were forced to abandon some areas to protect others. Chunks of the empire began to be lost and from that point on it was a case of complete collaspe as the empire was divided up and broken apart. The barbarian kings that arrived set up new kingdoms, many people had fled the cities to the countryside and the large agricultural estates (Some being replaced with barbarian rulers) began to protect the people within in return for work or military service. When these estates began to join in alliances to protect each other and submit to higher ones the feudal system eventually formed and the next era began. Life however for the average agricultural slave on such a estate changed little in the course of a thousand years.
I however think that it would have been averted had slavery been outlawed on practical grounds. If slavery did not exist then the agricultural estates would be forced to pay their workers wages, and capital would begin to move around. Due to this there would be increased competition in order to secure more wealth and thus more innovation. For example why build a watermill if you own slaves to do it? With this the empire would continue to innovate and stay relatively wealthy, and as long as they had capable rulers they would have done well. Had this been kept up for a few centuries we would have probably entered the industrial revolution in the late middle ages. Especially since steam power, rapid fire ballistics, steel, large ,mechanical machinery and a vast road network along with mass literacy was already around. (With some not very well exploited)[/QUOTE]
thanks for showing off your knowledge of the roman kingdom that you learned in 9th grade, sobotnik
[QUOTE=Ridge;31451839]Won't happen. All politicians do it, and have been doing it for the better part of a century. To do so would set a precedent that could threaten them in the future.[/QUOTE]
Their followers will believe them. Didn't you hear what they want to do, to make sure the President fails, and to make the current President a one-term president.
Want to know what I think, the Republicans should stop bitching and do their fucking jobs, and compromise or agree with the defense spending cut.
Has this been posted yet? Whatever
[url]http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/07/31/late-attempt-at-debt-limit-deal-to-avert-default/[/url]
The Reid plan has been voted down in the Senate.
So it's new plan or bust
Dai, I want a copy of your e-mail, I'd like to see what you wrote to your state's senator.
[QUOTE=smurfy;31452603]Has this been posted yet? Whatever
[url]http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/07/31/late-attempt-at-debt-limit-deal-to-avert-default/[/url]
The Reid plan has been voted down in the Senate.
So it's new plan or bust[/QUOTE]
So his 36 hour filibuster plan only lasted 12? Haha
[QUOTE=Sexy Eskimo;31449839]
The higher you climb the harder you fall and when the US do your banks won't stand a chance. A big majority of the population will lose their money. It will also bring down countless of other bound to the dollar. The US will crash and burn just like Iceland did, people lost their earnings and savings, but that's how the world works.[/QUOTE]
No no no. Let me tell you how Iceland really fell. Years ago, Iceland was practically at an equilibrium with it's economy, it was a sterling example of how a socialist-esque nation may operate. The banks were national and they actually [b]had[/b] money in their vaults. The wonders of [b]deregulation[/b] and [b]privatization[/b] introduced by your darwinist rights have literally placed Icelandic banks into the most shittiest investment and speculation practices. They squandered their own vault money on shady deals in the huge market and they were placing investments with in investments. Banks got bled dry when they cannot pay what they invested and people in Iceland were pissed beyond recognition as to how their parliament had the gall to pass such laws.
Encouraging deregulation in a time in where your economy has been devastated by the [b]cause[/b] of deregulation does not make any sense at [b]all[/b]. Why would you want to encourage banks to continue to place peoples' savings at risk by having them gamble away their money at the housing markets or in other retarded speculation bubbles? Seriously, that was how every bank operated in the US prior to the financial collapse. Once the speculation bubbles popped, Obama was forced to give the banks more money in order for them to have something in their vaults, the FDIC stepped in and start to insure savings up to 250,000 for many banks.
[QUOTE=Elizer;31452889]Dai, I want a copy of your e-mail, I'd like to see what you wrote to your state's senator.[/QUOTE]
[revising a better version for anyone who wants to send one out]
"In regards to the current situation with the debt ceiling bills, plans, and bickering, I (and a large group of people I somewhat represent) have been curious as to whether or not the actions of Boehner and the other republicans acting as he is qualifies as "Sedition", as per US Legal Code § 2384 (quoted below). Given Mitch McConnell is even quoted stating the GOP's number one priority is/should be to make Obama a one-term president, the Tea Partiers obviously have no qualms with the idea either and seem to have no better goal than to ruin things just to further the personal agenda of getting Obama out of the office, but the actions they are taking will likely crash the economy not only of us, but many world powers given the amount of trade we do- and for what, blaming decades of debt accumulation on a democrat to get the vote in a few years?
I'm no expert at all in politics nor the legal system, but I'm sure I speak for many, many people with less than millions of dollars when I say that the Tea Party and extreme Republicans look like toddlers kicking and screaming when someone wants them to wait and share turns going down the playground slide.
[quote of the legal code]"
Chances are that's just going to be skimmed by the senator's secretary.
Unless you contributed to a minimum of 400 dollars to his/her campaign or voted for him/her in the previous election, that person won't bother to look upon you.
[QUOTE=CabooseRvB;31453229]Chances are that's just going to be skimmed by the senator's secretary.[/QUOTE]
chances anyone reads it in his email is better than them reading this thread, so that's a victory in any regard. That's why I cut straight to the chase about the legal code in the first sentence, since they'd likely get bored if I fluffed the whole thing.
[QUOTE=daijitsu;31453241]chances anyone reads it in his email is better than them reading this thread, so that's a victory in any regard. That's why I cut straight to the chase about the legal code in the first sentence, since they'd likely get bored if I fluffed the whole thing.[/QUOTE]
actually I mailed him a link to this thread
Dick Durbin is the coolest guy in all of Illinois.
And probably the US too.
Alright, I can't really tell. Is this the kind of bad where you better have a raiding party or is it soup line bad?
[QUOTE=Mr.Goodcat;31453895]Alright, I can't really tell. Is this the kind of bad where you better have a raiding party or is it soup line bad?[/QUOTE]
I'm guessing soup line bad for some people.
what? can you put some information?
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