[QUOTE=Yahnich;40363219]physicist here, this shit is fucking magic[/QUOTE]
POTY 2013
[QUOTE=Liem;40362964]Can someone explain what exactly this means?[/QUOTE]
Yes/no
I study Chemistry at Uni, and basically, ELI5: you can excite electrons to different levels, primarily from the HOMO to the LUMO (highest occupied molecular orbital to lowest unoccupied MO). A lot of these excitations occur due to photons exciting these electron(s) to the LUMO (and is the principle of how fluorescence and with that phosphorescence works; also how chemical solar panels function, and lots of other things).
Plants (and algae, cyanobacteria, plankton...) have two so called photosystems, photosystem I and II which are a combination of light acceptors and donors which absorb and emit light at a wavelength of 700 and 680 nm to absorb the energy from light, which again, works with this HOMO<->LUMO interaction thanks to all the electron chain transferring which ends up occurring in the photosystems.
It has been thought for a while that some organisms used quantum superposition to streamline this process, and it seems they've proved this now. Studying this could potentially even help towards quantum computing, for instance.
[QUOTE=valkery;40363200]Eudoxia, Ovb, JohnnyMo and Bradyns are the people I think of when it comes to science.[/QUOTE]
More like aVoN.
[QUOTE=Whitefox08;40363026][IMG]http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-psyduck.gif[/IMG]
[editline]21st April 2013[/editline]
Where is johnnymo when you need him.[/QUOTE]
pretty sure this shit's magic
[QUOTE=Ereunity;40370639]So basically it's absorbing light and holding it?[/QUOTE]
No, what you're thinking about is this:
[video=youtube;zekZRMfQozw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zekZRMfQozw[/video]
[QUOTE=valkery;40363200]Eudoxia, Ovb, JohnnyMo and Bradyns are the people I think of when it comes to science.[/QUOTE]
Not the chemist, Squad? :p
Also, the interesting part of this is I just got done reviewing a friends laser table that is used for laser spectroscopy with femtosecond pulses to detect surface molecules of say ice.
Quantum is basically the model for showing that energy is quantized (meaning discrete packets of energy instead of continuous energy flow). Within quantum exists ideas on quantum superposition meaning that electrons exist in all of their states at once, until observed of course. The act of observation disrupts this property. (What I mean is that you can't observe the particle in all states simultaneously, once you observe it, you are observing one state.)
Basically these scientists have found that quantum superpositions allow for this flow of energy to happen without disruption. So, instead of the particle following one path to get to where it needs to be for the reaction, it follows all paths at the same time, thus how can you or anything block something taking every available path.
This could open up doors to efficiency barriers that we face at the present time.
[editline]22nd April 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Tark;40370833]Plants can manipulate quantum mechanics? Holy shit I thought we were advanced.[/QUOTE]
It isn't that plants manipulate quantum mechanics.
Quantum mechanics is a 'model' that humans use to describe phenomenon. Key word there is model. It works for some things and completely fails for others.
It isn't so much that plants manipulate quantum mechanics, it is that they are acting within the realm of quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics say that particles should be allowed to exist in superpositions, the plants have particles acting in superpositions, they didn't exploit the model, they are acting within the model.
[QUOTE=Squad;40380127]Not the chemist, Squad? :p[/QUOTE]
It's okay, that just means the people he listed are nerds.
[sp]Don't ban me Johnny <3[/sp]
I'm pretty good with science and logic but this shit is blowing my mind. I have no idea what is going on.
[QUOTE=Minimal;40385577]I'm pretty good with science and logic but this shit is blowing my mind. I have no idea what is going on.[/QUOTE]
If it makes you feel any better the people doing it don't either. If anyone ever tells you they understand quantum mechanics, they don't know enough about quantum mechanics.
sounds like they created/discovered a compound when put togather in a certain way, was able to mimic one of the key principles of photosynthysis which we don't already understand or havent been able to replicate in laborotory conditions before, which appears to be trapping photons and holding them in place using some quantum voodo, and it did this for a [very]E-15 short time, but they are confident that now they know how to do it once they can replicate it for a workable amount of time like quantum entanglement was about 4 years ago, this technology would lead to a new and highly efficient method of solar conversion because it would actually absorb the photons instead of having some hit and transfer while the rest bounce off,
but im only a first year chemical engineering student so maybe im wrong
[editline]23rd April 2013[/editline]
also quantum mechanics isn't impossible to understand, you just have to watch alot of monty python and throw all logic to the wind, then rebuild your logic
[QUOTE=Sableye;40386303]
also quantum mechanics isn't impossible to understand, you just have to watch alot of monty python and throw all logic to the wind, then rebuild your logic
but im only a first year chemical engineering student so maybe im wrong[/QUOTE]
I flipped your last two sentences for you. Understanding the basics, yes. Understand how to do the math, no problem.
Understanding why, how, what, who, when, where? Don't even kid yourself. I don't know if they cover quantum in Chemical Engineering at an undergraduate level.
However, when you come back in a couple years and tell us you are a 4th year student, let us know what you think, if you manage to glance at any quantum on the way.
edit: I took coursework dedicated to quantum in college and the people I work with are physical chemists with large knowledge in quantum.
The part of chloroplasts that is involved in converting light energy to chemical energy is the thylakoid membrane. It is here that I assume the study in the OP was able to recreate, since it is directly involved with the capture of light energy. Here the plant is able to use light energy to push electrons to higher orbitals, and then let them return back to their ground state, capturing energy that is released at each stage. This helps to drive the electron transport change which plays a role in the plant storing the energy- light capture in plants is very efficient, capturing nearly 100% of the energy with very little waste, which is remarkable for a natural process.
[t]http://www.uic.edu/classes/bios/bios100/lectures/antenna_complex.jpg[/t]
Because this is involving electrons there's a quantum physics aspect to this. We've known for sometime that plants were using principles of quantum physics in their manipulation of electrons, always finding ways for the most efficient pathways for electrons traveling down energy levels for capture so that it loses very little as it moves long distances (relatively speaking at an atomic scale). This is summarized here in an article from a few years ago:
[url]http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=shining-a-light-on-plants-quantum-secret[/url]
[quote]Quantum coherence describes how more than one molecule interacts with the same energy from one incoming photon at the same time. In essence, rather than the energy from a particular photon choosing one route to pass through the photosynthetic system, it travels through multiple channels simultaneously, allowing it to pick the quickest route.
...
The algae's different antenna colors allowed the chemists to pulse the specific proteins with femtosecond (one quadrillionth of a second) bursts of laser light. Based on atomic scale maps provided by previous X-ray crystallography, the researchers tracked the energy as it entered the photosynthetic system and progressed through it to so-called reaction centers, where the energy storage occurs. The pulses revealed that within single protein molecules the energy traveled down multiple pathways simultaneously. Thus, the protein antennae's efficiency relies on quantum coherence, such that molecules within a protein separated by vast distances (at the atomic scale) acted in a similar fashion at the same time for a relatively long period of time—more than 400 femtoseconds.
...
In fact, such insights might help inform how to efficiently transfer energy over long atomic distances quickly in human-made systems to harvest sunlight—benefiting from nature's 2.7-billion-year head start in optimizing such systems. "Can it help you make a huge jump through space? It does precisely that," Scholes says. "It would be really nice to learn some tricks or what you need to think about if you want to design something that would move energy a long distance quickly."
[/quote]
The journal article that the OP article is referring to is a bit more clear to read. It introduces with this:
[quote]Despite numerous observations of persistent electronic coherence in photosynthetic systems, no clear microscopic mechanism for the survival of these coherences has been experimentally verified. Theoretical efforts to dissect the atomistic mechanism are complicated by the size and complexity of photosynthetic light harvesting systems. Consequently, many competing models have been introduced to explain the observed quantum beating. These models invoke a broad range of physical mechanisms, including vibrational coherences (7, 8), vibronic excitons (9), nonadiabatic couplings (10), correlated protein motion (11), non-secular coupling between coherence and population (12), and long-range dielectric fluctuations (13). In the present work, we provide evidence that a synthetic small molecule can reproduce the long-lived quantum coherence phenomena observed in photosynthetic light harvesting systems. [/quote]
And concludes with why their findings were relevant
[quote]By replicating in a simple synthetic system the long-lived electronic coherence observed in biological systems, we confirm the generality of this phenomenon and introduce a framework for dissecting the complex information contained in 2D spectra of natural multichromophoric systems. In creating the first model system for such effects, we have identified that proximity, fixed orientation, and electronic coupling are sufficient to support persistent coherence. This system will allow complementary experimental and theoretical approaches to fully understand the role of quantum coherence in chemical dynamics. Furthermore, this work lays the groundwork for the development of artificial energy transfer devices that exploit the improved transfer efficiency obtained from the synergy between coherent and incoherent dynamics. [/quote]
There's a lot of data in the report showing how they tracked absorption and emission from the components in their artificial creation. The researchers say this could provide a basis for more efficient light capture in the future.
[QUOTE=Squad;40388495]I flipped your last two sentences for you. Understanding the basics, yes. Understand how to do the math, no problem.
Understanding why, how, what, who, when, where? Don't even kid yourself. I don't know if they cover quantum in Chemical Engineering at an undergraduate level.
However, when you come back in a couple years and tell us you are a 4th year student, let us know what you think, if you manage to glance at any quantum on the way.
edit: I took coursework dedicated to quantum in college and the people I work with are physical chemists with large knowledge in quantum.[/QUOTE]
im not pretending i understand quantum mechanics or am a quantum physicist, but i do read alot of journals on solar power and meta materials and the innovations that are in improving solar efficiencies are on or just above the quantum level at this point,
besides nitpicking what did i say that was blaitantly wrong, and what does the OP's news article really mean
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.