We're on our way to Britain: A year from now up to 29m Bulgarians and Romanians will have the right
461 replies, posted
[QUOTE=NoDachi;39032232]Why did you type this: "To be fair, the disdain for Gypsies isn't totally unreasonable."[/QUOTE]
Because, as I said after that (and which you are so conveniently ignoring), is that groups of Gypsies are causing problems in the area I live in. How is it difficult to grasp?
UKIP pls help us.
damn it dave stop page stretching or i'll report you
[QUOTE=NoDachi;39031932]Ethnic groups are not singular entities that can 'do something.'
[editline]30th December 2012[/editline]
You still said its not unreasonable to disdain them.
If that isn't the case, then don't say it.[/QUOTE]
Well fucking fine then. What do you do for the specific individuals that are part of that minority?
All you do is sheep around the idea of solving the problem and the only counter argument you bring out is FUCKING "[B]RACISM[/B]".
[QUOTE=David29;39032317]Because, as I said after that (and which you are so conveniently ignoring), is that groups of Gypsies are causing problems in the area I live in. How is it difficult to grasp?[/QUOTE]
But why did you say it originally with that Apologist post when some one said:
[QUOTE=Hellduck;39030668]People get funny about gypsies, other than that it's about the same I think.[/QUOTE]
You replied with:
[QUOTE=David29;39031703]To be fair, the disdain for Gypsies isn't totally unreasonable.[/QUOTE]
Then provided a meaningless anecdote as if it somehow validates everything.
[QUOTE=Stopper;39032376]Well fucking fine then. What do you do for the specific individuals that are part of that minority?
All you do is sheep around the idea of solving the problem and the only counter argument you bring out is FUCKING "[B]RACISM[/B]".[/QUOTE]
What? You do the same as you do with everyone else that causes problems. If it's not all of them, and other people do it too then it's not an ethnic issue.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;39032232]Why did you type this: "To be fair, the disdain for Gypsies isn't totally unreasonable."
[editline]30th December 2012[/editline]
Or are you completely linguistically incompetent and are unable to articulate what you're trying to say beyond "dem gypsies"[/QUOTE]
Of course it's not totally unreasonable.
If you came into contact with a group of people who were agressive, hostile, violent or otherwise negative towards you, your culture or your upbringing for no particular reason, you'd find yourself bias towards them.
You wouldn't just be like 'oh all of people in this group are probably fine, I just had a bad experience of people in X group' - you'd still be emotionally affected by your experience and more hesitant in your dealings with members of that group in future.
If you claim you wouldn't be then you are simply being ridiculous.
[QUOTE=Stopper;39032376]What do you do for the specific individuals that are part of that minority?[/QUOTE]
Treat them like specific individuals? Like everyone else?
[editline]30th December 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=SCopE5000;39032421] people who were agressive, hostile, violent or otherwise negative towards you, your culture or your upbringing for no particular reason[/QUOTE]
[B]you mean exactly how people treat gypsies?[/B]
[QUOTE=SCopE5000;39032421]If you claim you wouldn't be then you are simply being ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
That isn't what reasonable and unreasonable means.
[QUOTE=SCopE5000;39032421]Of course it's not totally unreasonable.
If you came into contact with a group of people who were agressive, hostile, violent or otherwise negative towards you, your culture or your upbringing for no particular reason, you'd find yourself bias towards them.
You wouldn't just be like 'oh all of people in this group are probably fine, I just had a bad experience of people in X group' - you'd still be emotionally affected by your experience and more hesitant in your dealings with members of that group in future.
If you claim you wouldn't be then you are simply being ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
It's understandable in those circumstances, but it's still totally irrational and childish.
Gypsies stole my hedge strimmer one time, I'm not even kidding, straight out of the family garden shed.
[QUOTE=Midas22;39032492]Gypsies stole my hedge strimmer one time, I'm not even kidding, straight out of the family garden shed.[/QUOTE]
How do you know they were gypsies? Did they leave a note written in Romanian? Did your Roma neighbor's notoriously ill-kept yard suddenly get better? Or are you assuming based on prejudice?
Your confusing Irish travellers and Romanian gypsies anyway.
Irish Travellers
[img_thumb]http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2011/11/27/arts/27KNUCKLE_SPAN/27KNUCKLE_SPAN-articleLarge.jpg[/img_thumb]
Romanian Gypsies
[img_thumb]http://euroheritage.net/gypsies3.jpg[/img_thumb]
Both are referred to as 'gypsies' in the UK.
[QUOTE=DaysBefore;39032579]How do you know they were gypsies? Did they leave a note written in Romanian? Did your Roma neighbor's notoriously ill-kept yard suddenly get better? Or are you assuming based on prejudice?[/QUOTE]
We lived on the outskirts of a field, they had stolen entire livestock, too large to be pulled away by any animal. Everyone knows gypsies live in fields
[QUOTE=NoDachi;39032425]Treat them like specific individuals? Like everyone else?[/QUOTE]
Bullshit.
You're judging people all the time no matter how much you pretend you're 'treating everyone like specific individuals'.
Differentiating between a hot girl and a sweaty fat guy for instance. You don't 'treat them equally' - get off your faux horse.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;39032425][B]you mean exactly how people treat gypsies?[/B][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=NoDachi;39032425]That isn't what reasonable and unreasonable means.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. That's part of the survival aspect of humans. Recognising potential threats based on experience/ knowledge which may be true but in most cases, isn't entirely rational.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;39032407]Then provided a meaningless anecdote as if it somehow validates everything.[/QUOTE]
How was it meaningless if it was was an example? Furthermore, considering that you said:
[QUOTE=NoDachi;39031932]Ethnic groups are not singular entities that can 'do something.'
[/QUOTE]
If I criticise a group of Gypsies for doing something bad, as they are not a single entity then I am obviously not necessarily talking about [b]all[/b] Gypsies.
[QUOTE=David29;39032696]How was it meaningless if it was was an example? Furthermore, considering that you said:
If I criticise a group of Gypsies for doing something bad, as they are not a single entity then I am obviously not necessarily talking about [b]all[/b] Gypsies.[/QUOTE]
"To be fair, the disdain for Gypsies isn't totally unreasonable."
[QUOTE=SCopE5000;39032664]Bullshit.
You're judging people all the time no matter how much you pretend you're 'treating everyone like specific individuals'.
Differentiating between a hot girl and a sweaty fat guy for instance. You don't 'treat them equally' - get off your faux horse.
[/QUOTE]
Maybe on a subconscious level, but I'm not going to start trying to argue that not liking someone based on their ethnicity is justified.
Of course everyone has some prejudices myself included, but its a very weak Apologist argument.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;39032719]"To be fair, the disdain for Gypsies isn't totally unreasonable."[/QUOTE]
"Ethnic groups are not singular entities"
[QUOTE=David29;39032953]"Ethnic groups are not singular entities"[/QUOTE]
Then why refer to the ethnic group as a whole when you say the disdain is justified?
[QUOTE=NoDachi;39032425]Treat them like specific individuals? Like everyone else?
[/QUOTE]
OK. Example:
[B]Most[/B] gypsies here don't pay taxes and bills. NOTHING. Government does nothing about it. How should I judge these individuals? How do I judge an individual who is supported by [I]my[/I] hard-earned money? How do I judge the individuals if [I]all[/I] of them are from a certain minority? And how will my judgment on them reflect on my views on the whole minority? Has it ever actually occurred to you that maybe people have a problem with gypsies as a whole, because the actions of a [I]sizable portion of them[/I] don't contribute to society and NOT the other way around? Why is that never a possibility?
[QUOTE=Stopper;39033089]OK. Example:
[B]Most[/B] gypsies here don't pay taxes and bills.[/QUOTE]
Do we actually have a source confirming this?
[editline]30th December 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Stopper;39033089]How do I judge the individuals if [I]all[/I] of them are from a certain minority?[/QUOTE]
Also, newsflash: people who are not gypsies also avoid tax.
[QUOTE=Hellduck;39033125]Do we actually have a source confirming this?
[editline]30th December 2012[/editline]
Also, newsflash: people who are not gypsies also avoid tax.[/QUOTE]
Yes.
[URL]http://novanews.bg/news/view/2011/11/23/23697/Роми-от-Дупница-недоволстват-срещу-сметки-за-ток/[/URL] - Roma demanding to get lower electricity bills, citing the high unemployment rate.
[URL]http://www.desant.net/show-news/25596/[/URL] - Gypsies haven't paid their bills for years and are complaining because their water is stopped a couple of months ago.
[URL]http://novjivot.info/11/06/34368[/URL] - Poor Roma rebel against water bills, the mayor lets them use it for free on the city's bill.
[URL]http://www.desant.net/show-news/25118/[/URL] - Gypsies in Dobrudja don't pay taxes - literally the title
[URL]http://www.vestnikataka.com/?module=displaystory&story_id=32649&format=print&edition_id=529[/URL] - cache, but the gist of it is that 20,000 people paid a collective bill of 20 levs (8 pounds) for their water bill.
I'm sorry you can't understand any of these, but I can't exactly post any non-bulgarian sources as no other nation in the EU gives a shit.
Also, newsflash - bulgarians are prosecuted when they don't pay their bills. I'm not talking about business tax avoidance.
Edit: sod it. I'm getting bored now.
[QUOTE=David29;39033328]Edit: sod it. I'm getting bored now.[/QUOTE]
Well that was a whole lot of effort gone unrewarded.
[QUOTE=Stopper;39033368]Well that was a whole lot of effort gone unrewarded.[/QUOTE]
Sorry to dissapoint you.
[QUOTE=Stopper;39033288]Yes.
[URL]http://novanews.bg/news/view/2011/11/23/23697/Роми-от-Дупница-недоволстват-срещу-сметки-за-ток/[/URL] - Roma demanding to get lower electricity bills, citing the high unemployment rate.
[URL]http://www.desant.net/show-news/25596/[/URL] - Gypsies haven't paid their bills for years and are complaining because their water is stopped a couple of months ago.
[URL]http://novjivot.info/11/06/34368[/URL] - Poor Roma rebel against water bills, the mayor lets them use it for free on the city's bill.
[URL]http://www.desant.net/show-news/25118/[/URL] - Gypsies in Dobrudja don't pay taxes - literally the title
[URL]http://www.vestnikataka.com/?module=displaystory&story_id=32649&format=print&edition_id=529[/URL] - cache, but the gist of it is that 20,000 people paid a collective bill of 20 levs (8 pounds) for their water bill.
I'm sorry you can't understand any of these, but I can't exactly post any non-bulgarian sources as no other nation in the EU gives a shit.
Also, newsflash - bulgarians are prosecuted when they don't pay their bills. I'm not talking about business tax avoidance.[/QUOTE]
It's cool, Google translate did the legwork. And these are all individual incidents. I was more looking for a statistic that says that most gypsies don't pay tax. And if they're not being prosecuted for tax evasion then that really is a problem and they should be. But there's no need to make it into an ethnic thing. As it stands just now - if they are truly the only ones not being punished - then it is an ethnic issue, and it needs to stop being one.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;39032425][B]you mean exactly how people treat gypsies?[/B][/QUOTE]
You say that as if some random person came up to a gypsy person and suddenly started "messing" with them for being who they are, when in reality, most people don't even look at them.
In my town for example, no one messes with them, but if one of them messes with you and you complain to their family or anything of the sort, then it goes from one to whoever is there able to get in the "fun".
[QUOTE=Rocâ„¢;39033519]You say that as if some random person came up to a gypsy person and suddenly started "messing" with them for being who they are, when in reality, most people don't even look at them.
In my town for example, no one messes with them, but if one of them messes with you and you complain to their family or anything of the sort, then it goes from one to whoever is there able to get in the "fun".[/QUOTE]
Well where I'm from there are plenty of people who are perfectly tolerant of everyone except gypsies. I find it absolutely infuriating if I'm honest.
As far as I'm concerned this thread consists of people with no real world experience of how groups of people form and act based on their beliefs, and simply make assumptions based on their speculation of what these groups [i]might[/i] be like, despite admitting they have no experience of dealing with them.
Despite examples of negative acts performed by the groups in many places all over the country (even witnessed first hand by people in the thread) that massively outweigh any positive the 'other half' of the group may bring to the country, you still insist that this is perfectly fine here, for some ridiculous reason.
I'd advise you to go and conduct some real world research on a gypsy camp but don't pick the wrong one! You might get shot or bare knuckle boxed into oblivion.
[QUOTE=Hellduck;39033430]It's cool, Google translate did the legwork. And these are all individual incidents. I was more looking for a statistic that says that most gypsies don't pay tax. And if they're not being prosecuted for tax evasion then that really is a problem and they should be. But there's no need to make it into an ethnic thing. As it stands just now - if they are truly the only ones not being punished - then it is an ethnic issue, and it needs to stop being one.[/QUOTE]
Bingo. It's an ethnic issue that needs to stop being one, but any attempt to solve it needs to first come clear with the fact that there indeed is a problem! So far, the only solution is to throw money at them! Build houses, pay their bills, benefits, benefits and even more benefits. It obviously doesn't work and only alleviates the racial tension!
Here's a source that gives you a clear-cut statistic.
[url]http://www.vsekiden.com/124179[/url]
I'm going to save you the pain of Google Translate with this quote in particular:
[quote]По официалната статистика от последното преброяване броят на циганите у нас е малко над 320 хиляди. Близо 700 милиона лева струва издръжката им от държавата, и то безвъзмездно. Калкулацията показва, че на всеки ром в България - от бебе до старец, се дават по 2200 лева годишно, в замяна на които той не връща абсолютно нищо към бюджета. Това са само сумите за социални, детски надбавки, майчински и помощи за отопление.[/quote]
By the latest statistics (that's the 2011 census, you can google that too if you're curious), the number of gypsies in Bulgaria is a little bit over 320 thousand. The benefits they receive from the country cost almost 700 million levs (about 300 million pounds or $450 million). That's 2200 levs (1000 pounds or around $1400) a year for every single gypsy, from toddler to elder and in return, the country gets nothing. These are the sums only for the social, child's and mother's benefits and the heat bills (country provides a way to heat up your house in the winter if you're struggling, so you don't die or anything like that).
That's the gist of it.
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