We're on our way to Britain: A year from now up to 29m Bulgarians and Romanians will have the right
461 replies, posted
[QUOTE=SCopE5000;39008057]If your football team is shit and Jose Mourinho offers to manage it, you don't say 'No! He's Portugese! Let's be racist and remain a shit team!'.
You welcome him in and he makes your team not-so-shit and everyone benefits.[/QUOTE]
Zenit fans came out telling their owners not to recruit and black or gay players even though they'd be better off
and though i like the analogy it doesn't really work, Mourinho wouldn't have any power over me
[editline]28th December 2012[/editline]
your analogy sounds more pro-immigration than pro-colonialism
[editline]28th December 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;39008058]re: sources on homicides
[t]http://i.imgur.com/1rQX4.png[/t]
(1 of more to come)[/QUOTE]
Mussolini made the trains run on time
more sources re: colonialism
[t]http://i.imgur.com/UZFiE.png[/t]
[editline]28th December 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=James*;39008097]Mussolini made the trains run on time[/QUOTE]
?? that's hardly a fair comparison. an order of magnitude reduction in homicide rates is a very big thing you know. a fairer comparison might be that Mussolini also practically eradicated the mafia.
[editline]28th December 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Stockers678;39008085]True, but they still had their problems. It's not perfect by any means
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials[/url][/QUOTE]
that hardly has anything to do with colonialism as such though? that's more a cautionary tale against, well, witch-hunts
[QUOTE=James*;39008097]Zenit fans came out telling their owners not to recruit and black or gay players even though they'd be better off
and though i like the analogy it doesn't really work, Mourinho wouldn't have any power over me[/QUOTE]
An example of racism and homophobia.
Other people really can run countries better and make them noticeably better of in doing so.
If this was done under the watchful eye of a regulatory committee, they could make sure there would be no exploitation as the country grows.
Nice sensationalist title, is daily mail the british equivalent of fox news or something?
Its impressive how xenophobic and hypocritical so many europeans are, if this was a fox news article complaining about illegal mexican immigrants all these europeans who complain about "muslims" and "gypsies" would be getting akll up in america's shit.
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;39008122]post[/QUOTE]
Governments can achieve many things if they ignore pesky things like rights
But which is more important
[QUOTE=James*;39008172]Governments can achieve many things if they ignore such pesky things as rights
But which is more important[/QUOTE]
what are you talking about this is a completely separate discussion to the benefits and drawbacks of colonialism. the salem witch trials, I mean really?
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;39008162]Nice sensationalist title, is daily mail the british equivalent of fox news or something?[/QUOTE]
You know the term 'gutter press'?
Even the most disgusting gutter looks better than the Daily Mail.
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;39008177]what are you talking about this is a completely separate discussion to the benefits and drawbacks of colonialism. the salem witch trials, I mean really?[/QUOTE]
I didn't mean to reply to that bit
Mussolini made the trains run on time but at what cost
Colonialism has benefits but at what cost (self-determination and human rights)
[QUOTE=James*;39008198]I didn't mean to reply to that bit
Mussolini made the trains run on time but at what cost
Colonialism has benefits but at what cost (self-determination and human rights)[/QUOTE]
Psssh who cares about rights and self-determination if the trains don't run on time man. Fuck that.
i came in here expecting to get all care at racists complaining all racistly about eastern europeans but instead we got a guy unapologetically defending colonialism so i guess its cool that yall're switching things up
[QUOTE=James*;39008198]I didn't mean to reply to that bit
Mussolini made the trains run on time but at what cost
Colonialism has benefits but at what cost (self-determination and human rights)[/QUOTE]
self-determination is a buzzword
as for human rights they didn't exist as such at that period. what I'm saying is that in comparison to their "self determination", the natives had a much better deal under european rule. of course if you're gonna apply colonialism to a modern day context it needs to be improved, but I'd say that the [I]drastic reduction in warfare and homicides[/I] far outweighs the drawbacks you said.
[editline]28th December 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;39008220]i came in here expecting to get all care at racists complaining all racistly about eastern europeans but instead we got a guy unapologetically defending colonialism so i guess its cool that yall're switching things up[/QUOTE]
thanks I'll be here all week
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;39008236]self-determination is a buzzword
as for human rights they didn't exist as such at that period. what I'm saying is that in comparison to their "self determination", the natives had a much better deal under european rule. of course if you're gonna apply colonialism to a modern day context it needs to be improved, but I'd say that the [I]drastic reduction in warfare and homicides[/I] far outweighs the drawbacks you said.[/QUOTE]
Maybe we should regulate homosexual activities too to reduce HIV.
Oh wait.
Yeah, there are reasons that charts look nice but it doesn't take context into account. Even if you do get murdered less or are in work more that doesn't mean you're happy or getting your life wrecked.
[QUOTE=MrEndangered;39008258]Maybe we should regulate homosexual activities too to reduce HIV.[/QUOTE]
that isn't exactly a fair comparison since we know that HIV isn't exclusive to gay people. but given that in the early days it certainly seemed that way, I would argue that regulation of homosexual behavior might have actually been a rational response (at least temporarily until the proper causes could be ascertained) and I say this as a sexually active gay person myself. I even approve of the fact that I can't give blood.
[editline]28th December 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=MrEndangered;39008258]Yeah, there are reasons that charts look nice but it doesn't take context into account. Even if you do get murdered less or are in work more that doesn't mean you're happy or getting your life wrecked.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill[/url]
[QUOTE=SCopE5000;39007889]I have to say that immigration is an extreme issue for Britain.
We aren't great producers/exporters so there is really no requirement for unskilled labourers, and even finding jobs as a skilled labourer or graduate is extremely difficult right now, to be honest.
IMO it'd be a good idea if their countries could fall under the rule of a more successful first-world country and receive funding/management to help them become more independent, raise education levels and so on. Then there would be no need to immigrate elsewhere as there would be jobs and education, and everyone would be better off.[/QUOTE]
The people who could make this happen, the people with the power to help build these countries up so their people will stay there, don't want this to happen.
They want to pit the lower classes vs other lower classes(immigrants).
Here in the US for example, everyone resents illegal immigrants. THEY are taking our jobs, THEY are using up our resources by collecting welfare, etc. No one stops to think "Hey, illegal immigrants don't make the laws. They don't have the majority vote. They don't have lots of money to buy political power. How is it that they are the ones to blame then?"
It sounds like gypsies are taking advantage of [i]a system someone in the UK created[/i]. In other words, don't look at these new immigrants as the cause, they are merely pawns just like you.
[QUOTE=James*;39008198]Colonialism has benefits but at what cost (self-determination and human rights)[/QUOTE]
100-200 years ago Racism was a belief subscribed to by the majority of the white population.
If you were born in 90% of households, you'd be racist without a doubt and carry those views through your entire life.
Thus, Colonialism in those days favoured white people and undervalued everyone else. White British people benefited above all and these beliefs were reflected in our treatment of people from other races.
Now-a-days Racism is a serious issue, so if we (as Britain) were to colonize and control other countries, there would obviously be a great deal of fair play and equal treatment in regards to human rights.
Hell, I bet (due to education etc) we probably have a much better idea of 'human rights' as a whole, than a lot of european countries, so if anything, this would improve the quality of life for lots of people straight away if we were to take control and impose adapted versions of our laws/ beliefs.
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;39008283]that isn't exactly a fair comparison since we know that HIV isn't exclusive to gay people. but given that in the early days it certainly seemed that way, I would argue that regulation of homosexual behavior might have actually been a rational response (at least temporarily until the proper causes could be ascertained) and I say this as a sexually active gay person myself. I even approve of the fact that I can't give blood.[/QUOTE]
But the regulation of homosexual behavior was a modern and cultural endeavor due to moralistic and reactionary principles allowing gay men to be castrated. Not allowing them to give blood is simply scientific practicality. There was no scientific reason that made this rational at the time.
[QUOTE=cecilbdemodded;39008343]Here in the US for example, everyone resents illegal immigrants. THEY are taking our jobs, THEY are using up our resources by collecting welfare, etc. No one stops to think "Hey, illegal immigrants don't make the laws. They don't have the majority vote. They don't have lots of money to buy political power. How is it that they are the ones to blame then?"[/quote]
uh i'm pretty sure that part of the rationale for limiting immigration is so that immigrants [I]don't[/I] become a large voting bloc
[quote]It sounds like gypsies are taking advantage of [i]a system someone in the UK created[/i]. In other words, don't look at these new immigrants as the cause, they are merely pawns just like you.[/QUOTE]
but that's a strawman? most daily mail readers recognize that the government is the problem and the immigrants are the symptom
Atleast the immigrants think Britain is great even if we don't. :/
[QUOTE=dass;39007595]I bet in a few seconds, people are gonna start calling each other racists or whatever for not wanting gypsies on their country.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=dass;38186573][QUOTE=En Ex;38182444]Are you all fucking kidding me?
Hitler murdered hundreds of thousands of Gypsies (Roma and Sinti) in a similar way to how the Jews and other groups were targeted.
No one deserves this kind of treatment.[/QUOTE]
You wouldn't say the same after living here.[/QUOTE]
yeah I'm sure that your views on what is and isn't racist are totally trustworthy and factual, I mean come on we've all wanted to take part in some genocidal purging every now and then right guys??
[QUOTE=MrEndangered;39008348]But the regulation of homosexual behavior was a modern and cultural endeavor due to moralistic and reactionary principles allowing gay men to be castrated. Not allowing them to give blood is simply scientific practicality. There was no scientific reason that made this rational at the time.[/QUOTE]
you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I mean yeah, the taboo against gay sex [I]was[/I] moralistic and reactionary and if that's the only justification you're using then it's obviously wrong. but that doesn't preclude it [I]also[/I] being a rational response to a novel disease that for all we knew might well have been some kind of "gay plague". life isn't neat and satisfying like a story, it's messy and unsatisfactory if you're looking for a moral to it.
Bulgarian here - if you have any questions about my country... I'd be happy to answer them.
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;39008177]what are you talking about this is a completely separate discussion to the benefits and drawbacks of colonialism. the salem witch trials, I mean really?[/QUOTE]
drawbacks to colonialism in the past and present
genocide
slavery
far less civil rights to the occupied/conquered
upside
none that can't be attained through democratic means
an example of a genocide caused by facist italy through the usage of mustard gas
On May 5, 1941, the Ethiopian government reported that, “...provisional estimates of the slaughter of Ethiopians, from the evidence thus far investigated, is 760,000;” however, the report concluded that “these figures are not final," however, based on interviews with surviving Ethiopian Patriots, in Addis Ababa and America between 2000 and 2004, a more conservative estimate of Ethiopian causalities would be “no less than one million.”
you can't possibly think that colonialism or facism is a good thing, unless you support genocide, which pretty much comes in the package.
[url]http://www.enotes.com/ethiopia-reference/ethiopia[/url]
Wow, Britain. I'm truly sorry for your loss.
[QUOTE=Stopper;39008429]Bulgarian here - if you have any questions about my country... I'd be happy to answer them.[/QUOTE]
Would you be opposed to a really great political party? Not necessarily Bulgarian - But one which could bring in a lot of their own money, their own knowledge and expertise, and make the country a great deal better off in 5-10 years time?
Better arm the muslamic ray guns to rid our great britannia of these gypsy scum
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;39008437]drawbacks to colonialism in the past and present
genocide
slavery
far less civil rights to the occupied/conquered[/quote]
it was an improvement over the native's situation prior to the conquest. you think that genocide, slavery and despotism are something that only white people do?
[quote]none that can't be attained through democratic means[/quote]
but I don't really care all that much about democracy. it's a hilariously inefficient and unpredictable system for actually improving people's lives.
[quote]an example of a genocide caused by facist italy through the usage of mustard gas
On May 5, 1941, the Ethiopian government reported that, “...provisional estimates of the slaughter of Ethiopians, from the evidence thus far investigated, is 760,000;” however, the report concluded that “these figures are not final," however, based on interviews with surviving Ethiopian Patriots, in Addis Ababa and America between 2000 and 2004, a more conservative estimate of Ethiopian causalities would be “no less than one million.” [/quote]
but I don't support genocide, I support subjugation of the natives with minimal collateral damage. think about it - the genocide of the ethiopians didn't even make [I]economic[/I] sense
[quote]you can't possibly think that colonialism or facism is a good thing, unless you support genocide, which pretty much comes in the package.[/quote]
?? there are plenty of examples of colonialism without genocide and genocide without colonialism. you're taking a single horrible example of colonialism and acting like it represents the whole.
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;39008521] [B]it was an improvement over the native's situation prior to the conquest[/B]. you think that genocide, slavery and despotism are something that only white people do?
[B]but I don't really care all that much about democracy[/B]. it's a hilariously inefficient and unpredictable system for actually improving people's lives.
[B]but I don't support genocide, I support subjugation of the natives with minimal collateral damage. think about it - the genocide of the ethiopians didn't even make [I]economic[/I] sense[/B]
??[B] there are plenty of examples of colonialism without genocide and genocide without colonialism[/B]. you're taking a single horrible example of colonialism and acting like it represents the whole.[/QUOTE]
"Improvement", getting poison dropped on you is an improvement, getting sent to gas chambers are also an improvement
holy shit you're really are a fascist
show me one colonial power that did not commit genocide.
I like how FP wants to be moraly right and labels everyone who doesn't wants people from other countries on their own a racist, but never think of the problems that come up in the process.
"X town has trouble with Y. They really are a handful."
"You genocidial racist asshole! You want to gas them all!"
[quote]‘She cannot afford to pay the bus ticket each day. She only earns £15 a week,’ explains her husband.[/quote]
No, she doesn't - she earns 65 pounds a week which is the minimum wage in Bulgaria. Especially for street cleaners. The companies that hire street cleaners are government contractors.
[quote]They met at 13, married in a gipsy ceremony, and neither has ever worked. ‘But I could do labouring on building sites if I came to Britain,’ says Tsvetan hopefully.[/quote]
Which is the truth for a log of bulgarian (possibly romanian) gypsies. They've never worked, they never went to school and they blame the country for all of their problems while happily taking the benefits for every child they have (that's why all the people mentioned have a couple of children, mind you - it's a big problem here.)
[quote]Back in the communist era, they were protected and were guaranteed jobs — like every adult in Bulgaria[/quote]
Eek! Back in the communist era, they didn't have [I]any[/I] rights. It was better for them, because EVERYONE was worse off.
[QUOTE=Puni;39007431]Dont care whats going on there. Dont let them in for fuck sake.[/QUOTE]
Trouble is, how do they sort the people who would make outstanding citizens from everyone else.
[QUOTE=Thom12255;39007494]
I have a feeling that picture is actually just a few chavs from the outskirts of Glasgow.[/QUOTE]
The picture is from the ghetto mentioned in the article.
[QUOTE=Charybdis;39007629]Bulgaria and Romania don't even make up 29m people[/QUOTE]
27 if you want to be pedantic, but that figure includes all people who have a Bulgarian or Romanian passport.
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;39008591]"Improvement", getting poison dropped on you is an improvement, getting sent to gas chambers are also an improvement[/quote]
[quote]you're taking a single horrible example of colonialism and acting like it represents the whole.[/quote]
[quote]holy shit you're really are a fascist
show me one colonial power that did not commit genocide.[/QUOTE]
show me one [I]power[/I] that hasn't committed genocide
(ie a power that was around during the colonial era)
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