We're on our way to Britain: A year from now up to 29m Bulgarians and Romanians will have the right
461 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Coppermoss;39009207]The way I see it is this: The UK is made up of two small islands. It has 63,181,775 people living in its borders. It has its own culture, its own people, and its own sovereignty. Immigrants should be welcomed. Immigrants should have rights as well. However, immigrants have responsibilities too. They need to be aware of British culture, customs, laws, and very importantly, talk enough English to get by. Immigrants should not expect special treatment just for bring immigrants. They should try to find work, educate themselves, and just work to the benefit of their new country, not leech the system. I would expect this of any immigrant to any country, because one day I would like to be an immigrant somewhere. I don't think it is "racist" or discriminatory to think this.[/QUOTE]
It is simply not possible to sustain this many people unless they begin living in shanty dwellings in the countryside.
There are no unskilled labour jobs available because we do not have any factories and do not produce anything.
There are no skilled labour/ graduate jobs available because people educated in Britain have priority on these jobs, and they are few and far between.
If immigrants were vetted for their ability to pay taxes, and their education prior to being allowed in, excellent. Britain would benefit from these taxes and the potential jobs these people could fulfil or create.
This is how America does it (green card, etc) and it works excellently.
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;39009339]an empire doesn't need to conquer endlessly, althrough it conquered other nations/peoples in the past, an empire doesn't need to continuously afterwards, it depends on the ruler.[/quote]
well no i'm not saying an empire has to constantly expand I'm saying that in order to actually achieve the goal of improving lives and law and order it needs to actually impose its rule rather than rule by proxy. sovereignty, not suzerainty.
[quote]how is that a contradiction? churchill's phrase as so far been continuously proven by history[/quote]
because you're saying that humans are flawed and then in the same breath you say that we should let as many humans as possible have a say in government
[quote]corporations have been proven to be untrustworthy as well, see dutch india companies.[/quote]
the crimes of the east india companies were on about the same par as the governments at the time. with regard to the specific flaws introduced by things like primogeniture it's immune.
[quote]racism is not a small price to pay.[/QUOTE]
oh I'm sorry but it is. i value lives higher than equality
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;39009420]well no i'm not saying an empire has to constantly expand I'm saying that in order to actually achieve the goal of improving lives and law and order it needs to actually impose its rule rather than rule by proxy. sovereignty, not suzerainty.
because you're saying that humans are flawed and then in the same breath you say that we should let as many humans as possible have a say in government
the crimes of the east india companies were on about the same par as the governments at the time. with regard to the specific flaws introduced by things like primogeniture it's immune.
oh I'm sorry but it is. i value lives higher than equality[/QUOTE]
companies to this day, still engage in several horrendous things, for instance the reason Khomeini is in power in iran, is because the US alongside britain ousted a democratically elected leader, because he was socialist and he nationalized the oil companies in iran, and installed the shah as the new leader which caused unrest, then shah gets ousted 2 decades later and Khomeini gets to power.
nestle was found engaging in slavery in africa 2 years ago, chinese companies employ factory works in near slavery conditions, another case of horrible things.
The purpose of business is to make money, nothing else matters, which again history has proven, and you think its a good idea to trust a corporation-like goverment to rule things?
racism breeds hatred, which in turn breeds strife, which in turn breeds war, which in turn breeds death.
edit:i forgot
also democracy serves to keep powers in check, so that no group thats too powerful, and gets on powertrip, forcing everyone to whatever they want, thats why democracy works better, its a safeguard against homicidal maniacs, or megalomaniacs.
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;39009548]companies to this day, still engage in several horrendous things, for instance the reason Khomeini is in power in iran, is because the US alongside britain ousted a democratically elected leader, because he was socialist and he nationalized the oil companies in iran, and installed the shah as the new leader which caused unrest, then shah gets ousted 2 decades later and Khomeini gets to power.[/quote]
which is why i disagree with attempting to rule by proxy - it causes this sort of bullshit. if a western country simply had persia as a colonial possession the whole thing would have been avoided.
[quote]nestle was found engaging in slavery in africa 2 years ago, chinese companies employ factory works in near slavery conditions, another case of horrible things.[/quote]
the situation is improving year on year, mostly in response to consumer demand for more ethically produced goods.
[quote]The purpose of business is to make money, nothing else matters, which again history has proven, and you think its a good idea to trust a corporation-like goverment to rule things?[/quote]
which is why you run the country as a property developer might. by making the country as nice a place to live as possible you increase the value of the land. this means that the business makes more money as more people want to live there.
[quote]racism breeds hatred, which in turn breeds strife, which in turn breeds war, which in turn breeds death.[/quote]
but I gave an overall reduction in deaths as the reason for implementation of colonialist policies?
[quote]also democracy serves to keep powers in check, so that no group thats too powerful, and gets on powertrip, forcing everyone to whatever they want, thats why democracy works better, its a safeguard against homicidal maniacs, or megalomaniacs.[/QUOTE]
lmao you can't even see the contradiction
[QUOTE]which is why i disagree with attempting to rule by proxy - it causes this sort of bullshit. if a western country simply had persia as a colonial possession the whole thing would have been avoided.[/QUOTE]
how does that even make sense, they were ruling themselves well, why would you even force colonialsm on them to begin with, they were modernizing their country and doing the very things that the west wanted, it was WESTERN intervention that cause the whole problem to begin with, just so you know the US didn't even wanted to intervene, it was the CIA going over the US president orders and helping the british regardless.
[QUOTE]the situation is improving year on year, mostly in response to consumer demand for more ethically produced goods.[/QUOTE]
by usage of the very thing you seem to loathe, democracy.
[QUOTE]which is why you run the country as a property developer might. by making the country as nice a place to live as possible you increase the value of the land. this means that the business makes more money as more people want to live there.[/QUOTE]
again, you forget the human problem, humans tend to be selfish, why do you think corruption tends to be so widespread? and again the purpose of a company is to make money, thats it, they don't care about long term gains, only short term, if we did care about long term, global warming would not be an issue, and the rich in the US wouldn't be fighting tooth and nail against any increase in taxes on them, to solve the debt issue, since it would be good for the country and thus the economy.
[QUOTE]
but I gave an overall reduction in deaths as the reason for implementation of colonialist policies?[/QUOTE]
and you ignored the genocides which happened during the conquering of said countries and people, and also the fact that goverments like britain have gotten rid of their records that would have proven even more atrocities
[QUOTE]
lmao you can't even see the contradiction[/QUOTE]
there is no contradiction, thats the purpose of democracy, show me where it is the contradiction.
[QUOTE=Thom12255;39007494]Well you only actually like immigration if you have tons and tons of room to expand OR the people immigrating to your country are very smart and will add greatly to your nations standing in the world. Sorry to say but most eastern Europeans don't. We also aren't the land of oppurtunity, that's America, we're a battered shell of what we used to be and we suck.
I only came in the thread to say - ban this bot.
I have a feeling that picture is actually just a few chavs from the outskirts of Glasgow.[/QUOTE]
Battered shell of what we were before? where have you been this year!
We've had the Olympics, various royal celebrations, a surge in our economy, major developments in most major cities and regardless of the cuts we're still being introduced to the world through an amazing education system and all the while being looked after by one of the only free healthcare systems in the world. Lets not forget of course that, especially compared to these countries, we have remarkable social freedoms when it comes to sexuality and gender equality.
This is what Britain has pretty much always been about, a huge mix of various cultures all bringing their best to produce a society everyone wants to be a part of and it's a crying shame that the Daily Mail consistently misses this. It's why only 1 in 10 countries haven't been affected by the former empire and why our history is so rich. This new round of immigrants may not seem like the most favourable but then I doubt many of the ones from the past seemed that good at the time either.
[QUOTE=Thom12255;39007494]Well you only actually like immigration if you have tons and tons of room to expand OR the people immigrating to your country are very smart and will add greatly to your nations standing in the world. Sorry to say but most eastern Europeans don't. We also aren't the land of oppurtunity, that's America, we're a battered shell of what we used to be and we suck.
I only came in the thread to say - ban this bot.
I have a feeling that picture is actually just a few chavs from the outskirts of Glasgow.[/QUOTE]
Just FYI, Eastern Europeans aren't a bunch of illiterate rabble. Most of the people who legally immigrate to the UK are people who have the potential to make it big there. And it's a bit fucking disrespectful to address a collective of 10 or so nations as "not very smart".
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;39009779]by usage of the very thing you seem to loathe, democracy.[/QUOTE]
When did colonialism not incorporate capitalism/ democracy?
If you're saying we can't create an adapted political agenda to arrive at a better agenda, then I have to ask why this is not possible?
IMO progress doesn't consist of taking a purely academic approach but addresses a multitude of variables combined with free thought, reason and rational thought to create something new.
We're simply referring to this 'modern adaptation of colonialism with capitalism and equality' as colonialism because it's most similar to it, and because we don't have a better name for it.
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;39009779]again, you forget the human problem, humans tend to be selfish, why do you think corruption tends to be so widespread? and again the purpose of a company is to make money, thats it, they don't care about long term gains, only short term, if we did care about long term, global warming would not be an issue, and the rich in the US wouldn't be fighting tooth and nail against any increase in taxes on them, to solve the debt issue, since it would be good for the country and thus the economy.[/QUOTE]
This is an absurd assumption. You're grouping all businesses into a party with a single agenda which is certainly not the case. Your point about long-term/short-term gains is also completely wrong. Think about any VC, which focuses solely on long-term gains financially.
[QUOTE=Thom12255;39007494]Well you only actually like immigration if you have tons and tons of room to expand OR the people immigrating to your country are very smart and will add greatly to your nations standing in the world. Sorry to say but most eastern Europeans don't. We also aren't the land of oppurtunity, that's America, we're a battered shell of what we used to be and we suck.
[/QUOTE]
british self-loathing at its best
40p for a loaf of bread is cheaper than our shops I think
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;39009779]by usage of the very thing you seem to loathe, democracy.[/quote]
no it's capitalism not democracy
[quote]again, you forget the human problem, humans tend to be selfish, why do you think corruption tends to be so widespread? and again the purpose of a company is to make money, thats it, they don't care about long term gains, only short term, if we did care about long term, global warming would not be an issue, and the rich in the US wouldn't be fighting tooth and nail against any increase in taxes on them, to solve the debt issue, since it would be good for the country and thus the economy.[/quote]
erm companies are better than people at thinking long term. you're just confused. the problems to do with global warming and tax evasion are prisoner's dilemmas. they're nothing to do with foresight or lack thereof.
[quote]there is no contradiction, thats the purpose of democracy, show me where it is the contradiction.[/QUOTE]
the contradiction is that the benefit of democracy you stated is that it "prevents groups from gaining too much power". but then what about mob rule and populism? hitler had massive popular support. surely that is the epitome of democracy? yet in the "democratic" system you have in mind, those sorts of groups are discouraged. contradiction.
[QUOTE]When did colonialism not incorporate capitalism/ democracy?[/QUOTE]
capitalism =/= democracy , also when did coloniasm included democracy would be a better question, especially for the occupied.
[QUOTE]If you're saying we can't create an adapted political agenda to arrive at a better agenda, then I have to ask why this is not possible?
IMO progress doesn't consist of taking a purely academic approach but addresses a multitude of variables combined with free thought, reason and rational thought to create something new.
We're simply referring to this 'modern adaptation of colonialism with capitalism and equality' as colonialism because it's most similar to it, and because we don't have a better name for it.[/QUOTE]
and also, that wouldn't be colonialism then, it would be something else, something new, and still democractic, like i said before, if you got a good idea, you don't need to force people to follow it, most will by themselves, all you need to do is prove it to them that it works, without the need to force it down their throats, why do you think democracy spread throught the planet?
[QUOTE]This is an absurd assumption. You're grouping all businesses into a party with a single agenda which is certainly not the case. Your point about long-term/short-term gains is also completely wrong. Think about any VC, which focuses solely on long-term gains financially.[/QUOTE]
history has proven that the vast majority of business don't care about the long term, i'm not saying every single one is against it, again the example of global warming i gave earlier fits this perfectly.
and also greed trumps reason unfortunately most of the time.
[QUOTE=Mellowbloom;39010070]40p for a loaf of bread is cheaper than our shops I think[/QUOTE]
Minimum wage is 140 pounds/month.
I think that in a lot of ways there seems to be a lot more accepted racism in Europe than in my country. (America.)
[editline]28th December 2012[/editline]
At least just by seeing how people in this thread(and on the rest of fp) are acting.
[QUOTE]no it's capitalism not democracy[/QUOTE]
no thats democracy, again check history, workers barely had any rights, it was through democracy that they gained several rights.
[QUOTE]erm companies are better than people at thinking long term. you're just confused. the problems to do with global warming and tax evasion are prisoner's dilemmas. they're nothing to do with foresight or lack thereof.[/QUOTE]
yeah, that must be why exxon is paying enourmous ammounts of money to try to disprove the severity of global warming
[url]http://www.aljazeera.com/archive/2006/09/200849165124445702.html[/url]
[QUOTE]the contradiction is that the benefit of democracy you stated is that it "prevents groups from gaining too much power". but then what about mob rule and populism? hitler had massive popular support. surely that is the epitome of democracy? yet in the "democratic" system you have in mind, those sorts of groups are discouraged. contradiction.[/QUOTE]
these emerged due to widespread racism in the era and scientific disonesty, as well as the british and the french imposing horrible sanctions on germany due to WWI as well, the issue is not democracy, show me how many democractic goverments have succumbed to facism, only a few, also i never said democracy is perfect, simply that is better than the other alternatives, and history proves it, the atrocities of nazism and facism, have been carried out by several other forms of goverment as well.
[QUOTE=kaine123;39010158]I think that in a lot of ways there seems to be a lot more accepted racism in Europe than in my country. (America.)[/QUOTE]
of course there is and any european who says otherwise is either a bit dim or lying to themselves
[QUOTE=thisispain;39010325]of course there is and any european who says otherwise is either a bit dim or lying to themselves[/QUOTE]
racist
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;39010333]racist[/QUOTE]
are we gonna use dictionary definitions of racist here
Ha, it's a while already that my country is infested by romanians and albanians.
I have no problem with their ethnicity, the real problem is that.. I don't know how to word it, they aren't even liked by their connationals, they come from the underdeveloped parts of their country where everything is shit and you get raised like a dog.
I got to talk with people who came for reasons different than poverty, and they are very respectful and cheerful. The rest it's the other way around: they come to your place and want to boss you around, give 0 shits about authority and some are straight up dangerous or criminals: here they get sentenced to jail, in their place they get fucking shot at and fed to the pigs. It's convenient for them.
50% of the time you hear about a knife fight, a robbery, a homicide, around here it was one of them. The thing IS worring, since they make up for just the 13% of the populuation.
Hello, job-stealer here. This type of views irks me. If I'm working, I'm a job-stealer. If I don't, I'm a benefit scrounge. If you don't like immigrants, say it up front, stop beating the bush. "I don't want immigrants here, I want the British race to be pure." ffs
[QUOTE=SCopE5000;39009357]There are no unskilled labour jobs available because we do not have any factories and do not produce anything.[/QUOTE]
Britain has a service economy. It ranges from low-skill jobs to high ones.
[QUOTE=rusty trombone;39007556]cultural enrichment[/QUOTE]
i dont know why people say this, mixing two cultures just destroys both of them
Immigrants tend to do well for a country. If you don't have people moving around, the place stagnates.
Compare the British isles over the past thousand years, and then Japan as an example.
[QUOTE=lapsus_;39010546]Ha, it's a while already that my country is infested by romanians and albanians.
I have no problem with their ethnicity, the real problem is that.. I don't know how to word it, they aren't even liked by their connationals, they come from the underdeveloped parts of their country where everything is shit and you get raised like a dog.
I got to talk with people who came for reasons different than poverty, and they are very respectful and cheerful. The rest it's the other way around: they come to your place and want to boss you around, give 0 shits about authority and some are straight up dangerous or criminals: here they get sentenced to jail, in their place they get fucking shot at and fed to the pigs. It's convenient for them.[/QUOTE]
I agree with this. I'm more worried about someone's class and upbringing than ethnicity.
[QUOTE=lapsus_;39010546]50% of the time you hear about a knife fight, a robbery, a homicide, around here it was one of them. The thing IS worring, since they make up for just the 13% of the populuation.[/QUOTE]
13%? So the entire foreign population are illiterate and liekly to involved on dodgy stuffs. That or you're just exaggerating your numbers.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;39010831]Immigrants tend to do well for a country. If you don't have people moving around, the place stagnates.
Compare the British isles over the past thousand years, and then Japan as an example.[/QUOTE]
No, you compare them, because whatever your point is supposed to be, it doesn't make any sense.
[QUOTE=abcpea2;39010763]i dont know why people say this, mixing two cultures just destroys both of them[/QUOTE]
That's just bullshit.
[QUOTE=abcpea2;39010763]i dont know why people say this, mixing two cultures just destroys both of them[/QUOTE]
Totally! When the Frenchie Normans invaded God-sent England, they eradicated the beautiful Saxon language and culture along with their own. That's when England lost its culture.
/s
[QUOTE=kaine123;39010158]I think that in a lot of ways there seems to be a lot more accepted racism in Europe than in my country. (America.)
At least just by seeing how people in this thread(and on the rest of fp) are acting.[/QUOTE]
Racism is not really accepted or that common at all, it's just common on Facepunch for some reason.
If you want my opinion on it, I say you can't blame a group of people for anything, because even in a group of people, not every single person is alike. Not every gypsy scrounges benefits and not every single muslim wants to incorporate salafi/wahabbi-style Sharia in law. Anyone who believes that are xenophobic at best, or racist at worst.
Such views are built upon by stereotypes and heavily localized "personal experiences". For example, I recall a Dutch guy here who happened to have been stabbed by Arab immigrants, and then proceeded to rant about muslims destroying his country.
Racists and xenophobes do not take into account that the acts of individuals do not represent entire groups, and they also do not take into account that the kind of immigrants they rant about did not come here to steal jobs, scrounge benefits, rape women or whatever they're complaining about. They came here because the situation in their home country sucked and they heard that this other country was in a much better economic situation and had a democratic government and jobs and everything. The problems commonly associated with immigrants usually comes from the fact that they may not have adequate education because their home countries didn't have a well-functioning educational system, or that the new country actually wasn't actually in such a good economic situation as they had heard.
This reminds me of a crappy joke about a Romanian bouncer
"What do you mean you won't let us in, we let you in"
[QUOTE=redhaven;39010950]Totally! When the Frenchie Normans invaded God-sent England, they eradicated the beautiful Saxon language and culture along with their own. That's when England lost its culture.
/s[/QUOTE]
England was born out of Norman and Anglo Saxon unity.
[QUOTE=Stopper;39010891]No, you compare them, because whatever your point is supposed to be, it doesn't make any sense.[/QUOTE]
Japan had a very strict policy where every foreigner was executed from the 17th through 19th centuries, and even today has few immigrants.
Britain, by contrast, has had the French, Germans, Poles, Jews (they returned in the 1600s after they got eradicated in the middles ages), etc come over during that time (French Silk weavers, German bakers, Polish plumbers, etc).
Immigrants have contributed a lot, not only culturally, but intellectually and practically as well.
Had we the strict immigration policies of the Daily Mail type, we would be stuck in the neolithic, like some parts of Norfolk.
If the same gypsies that robbed me during my time in Romania during my tour of the European mainland move into Edinburgh.....
Well that'd fuckin' awkward.
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