• Jury finds Dylann Roof Guilty On All Charges
    124 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Duck M.;51535543]Again, is money really the only concern here?[/QUOTE] whatever pragmatically and most effectively lowers the burden and pain caused by individuals such as these on the rest of society is the preferable course of action if current expenses that go towards a formal execution can be lessened to be cheaper than life imprisonment without compromising the ability to give a 100% factual and accurate conclusion, and science as we know it can confirm 100% that execution is the only reasonable path to take in the face of alternatives such as rehabilitation or whatever i'd say go for it
[QUOTE=CruelAddict;51535552]I'm legit curious where stables breeding such moral horses are.[/QUOTE] Whoa you owned him, what a fool he is for thinking wanting to see people die is wrong. I swear some people am I right.
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;51535567]whatever pragmatically and most effectively lowers the burden and pain caused by individuals such as these on the rest of society is the preferable course of action[/QUOTE] Well some would argue, at least for a lot of prisoners, that rehabilitation and reintegration would be the most effective course of lowering their burden on society. It's arguable from an ethical standpoint, too. [QUOTE]if current expenses that go towards a formal execution can be lessened to be cheaper than life imprisonment without compromising the ability to give a 100% factual and accurate conclusion, and science as we know it can confirm 100% that execution is the only reasonable path to take in the face of alternatives such as rehabilitation or whatever i'd say go for it[/QUOTE] But is such a contentious and complex issue such as justice really subject to "100%" certainty in any sense? I'd say that it's inconceivable that any kind of science would ever be able to confirm that execution would be the only reasonable path.
[QUOTE=Pops;51535529]in the case of ksm or osama, they're terrorists, mass murderers and war criminals. you seriously think they should just rot away in a cell?[/QUOTE] Yes, we save money and there's no practical reasons to kill them, nothing is gained. Their ability to do anything to anyone is gone, doesn't matter if they enjoy prison like it's paradise, they've been dealt with and no further action is needed. [QUOTE=Pops;51535549]but is it cheaper? they could live up to 90 years old, as opposed to a firing squad, hanging or lethal injection. shit, there are plenty of people who would do it for free.[/QUOTE] Lethal injection is the only viable option here, which has chemicals that cost quite a lot. Unless you're fine with inhumanely making someone suffer brutally in their final moments to exact revenge. And thats not even the expensive part, the expensive part is the appeals. You can't deny them the appeals proccess because that is an important part of due proccess, it'd be like deciding someone can go straight to jail without a trial. These appeals take several years and then when the decision is finally made, you've wasted more cash than just leaving them prison for their entire lives.
[QUOTE=Pops;51535549]but is it cheaper? they could live up to 90 years old, as opposed to a firing squad, hanging or lethal injection. shit, there are plenty of people who would do it for free.[/QUOTE] most costs associated with execution are outside costs such as legal proceedings and death row housing costs, not the method. all reputable modern data ive seen indicated that yes, it is way more costly to execute than to house for life in genpop. [url]https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:I76E9DasQioJ:www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphillipserb/2014/05/01/considering-the-death-penalty-your-tax-dollars-at-work/+&cd=14&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us[/url] [url]https://www.themarshallproject.org/2014/12/17/six-reasons-the-death-penalty-is-becoming-more-expensive#.AChgLVRoD[/url] [url]http://www.criminaljusticedegreehub.com/how-much-does-it-cost-to-execute-a-death-row-inmate/[/url]
[QUOTE=Tomo Takino;51535575]Whoa you owned him, what a fool he is for thinking wanting to see people die is wrong. I swear some people am I right.[/QUOTE] I mean, someone compared the emotional reaction of wishing a mass-murderer were dead to actually murdering 9 people. That's the pedestal.
[QUOTE=Duck M.;51535584]But is such a contentious and complex issue such as justice really subject to "100%" certainty in any sense? I'd say that it's inconceivable that any kind of science would ever be able to confirm that execution would be the only reasonable path.[/QUOTE] no idea, but im only concerned with facts and science.
[QUOTE=RainbowStalin;51535446]Why do you assume this mans death would bring satisfaction to the victims? Stop projecting your murder boner onto others.[/QUOTE] Murder Boner? I literally just advocated in the very post you yourself quoted that he NOT be killed. In no way does saying that his death being something someone affected by the slaughter would potentially want convict me of projecting a 'murder boner'.
[QUOTE=Cructo;51535580]honestly what is the moral difference between a life sentence without parole and death penalty, in both cases they're equally removed from society[/QUOTE] I'm commenting on Faze being a revenge fetishist and people are defending that viewpoint for some weirdo reason. Disagreeing with the death penalty isn't 'being on a high horse'.
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;51535578]When it comes to rehab, I always ask myself: "Would I want this guy to move in next to me after he gets out of prison?"[/QUOTE] Quite frankly I feel like 99% of the time I'd answer yes to that question. If someone is released in good faith, I have no issue with them living as a member in our society. I feel like the stigmas that ex-cons carry after they're released is a major problem in our society.
[QUOTE=shian;51535154]Never understood why US must use lethal injection Why not just hanging? It works better than that.[/QUOTE] I've got issues with the death penalty, but if you want to do it, and want to at least pretend to be humane about it, nitrogen asphyxiation is the way to go. Unlike carbon dioxide asphyxiation, there are no convulsions. You just pass out and go peacefully. There's no drug you might have a resistance to. There's no injections. Just flood the room, wait an hour, and vent. And it's unbelievably cheap. Nitrogen tanks are already used for countless industrial purposes. It's plentiful, and very easy to safely use. Apparently it's becoming a popular way to commit assisted suicide. Fill a bag with nitrogen, and breath into the bag for a bit. Your partner then just disposes of the bag and a small canister used to inflate it. Nothing shows up in toxicology. It looks like you just died in your sleep.
[QUOTE=Cructo;51535624]simply disagreeing isn't, but saying "you're all fucked in the head for being in favor of a death penalty" is tbh[/QUOTE] I dont entirely disagree. People get heated when death penalties are brought up, but I think saying 'yeah man let this fucker burn that will teach him' is alot worse than someone saying they are fucked in the head. Neither is great to be saying, however.
[QUOTE=Revenge282;51534788]I genuinely would say that the death sentence may be more fitting for this since rehab or any type of leniency is not an option.[/QUOTE] Why? I hope you realize the death penalty costs more than life in prison, it's a waste of resources so you can feel good at night that a human being has died. If he's in prison for the rest of his despicable life, then how is he even a threat to the outside world? Not only is it a waste of resources, but you're setting a precedent that somehow it's either okay to kill other human beings or that you can 'lose your humanity' due to some arbitrary subjective rules.
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;51535672]That stigma is VERY situational. Murder your wife in a drunken rage? You're probably filled with regret. Firebomb a church because "black people are killing whites everyday and someone had to do something"? Mmmmm if I was black I'd have some reservations about that.[/QUOTE] Well yeah thats why I said it should be taken on a case-by-case basis. What isn't taken on a case-by-case basis, though, are those stigmas. No matter what you go in for you're still going to come out with employment discrimination, disenfranchisement in the voting system, struggles to find housing in good areas, etc. Such extreme cases like Roof are fringe cases. And even then, I dont think humans are so black and white to where they cant change for the better. Perhaps thats naive of me, but I feel that if mental health care was taken more seriously we would be able to see that, starting with implementing it more in the way we treat our prisoners.
[QUOTE=plunger435;51534989]Because life in prison with no possibility for parole is somehow different? He's still going to die in the prison system. It would either be him dying at 50 or 80.[/QUOTE] You're not the one who gets to make that choice. It's his life, not yours. How would you like it if the system deemed you unnecessary and that you might as well die right now?
I prefer the life imprisonment option not as a moral choice. Far from it; this man will suffer a life of nothingness, numbness and suffering for the rest of his pitiful, awful life. [I]That[/I] is true revenge.
[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;51535710]I prefer the life imprisonment option not as a moral choice. Far from it; this man will suffer a life of nothingness, numbness and suffering for the rest of his pitiful, awful life. [I]That[/I] is true revenge.[/QUOTE] The justice system shouldn't be used to get revenge on people though.
[QUOTE=Govna;51535031]Don't know where all this "it's unhealthy" shtick is coming from. It's an entirely healthy reaction to feel disgust towards Roof because of what he did, and it's equally healthy to want to see him be punished for it. It's part of wanting to affirm the value of innocent life, being able to distinguish right from wrong, and having a sense of empathy for the victims and a desire for justice against the perpetrator. You're fine, Faze. Go about your life as usual.[/QUOTE] Hold your "justice" boner, there's no such thing in the natural world. "Justice" is completely different between culture to culture and and allowing this vague sense to allow us to commit atrocities makes us no different from those rural Muslim communities that stone people to death in the streets for adultery. To them, that's "justice," no way different from yours.
[QUOTE=Tomo Takino;51535718]The justice system shouldn't be used to get revenge on people though.[/QUOTE] When you have someone who shows no remorse, who cannot be cured, and will refuse to be cured or redeem themselves - then frankly let them rot in prison. I am all for recovering and rehabilitation. But if they're people like this sicko that can't be cured - no. Let them stay there, never to be seen again.
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;51535704]You could argue that life in prison is a form of torture and is even less human than just killing him now to get it over with.[/QUOTE] That is, once again, not ours to decide. If the man in jail thinks he'd rather have death than that experience, then I think it should be afforded to him. However, that's just my personal opinion. Ultimately that shouldn't be the case but since our prison systems are shit it is. Killing somebody without their consent is nothing but murder. Sometimes it is justified, such as in war or versus active criminals, however when we already have an unarmed man behind bars it is in no way justified.
[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;51535729]When you have someone who shows no remorse, who cannot be cured, and will refuse to be cured or redeem themselves - then frankly let them rot in prison.[/QUOTE] I think the question is if our current system is even giving them that chance. [QUOTE]I am all for recovering and rehabilitation. But if they're people like this sicko that can't be cured - no. Let them stay there, never to be seen again.[/QUOTE] I agree, but do you think that he'd necessarily be the same for the rest of his life with all other factors accounted for?
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;51535761]Could it not be considered society's self-defense against him?[/QUOTE] ... He's in prison? Society is defending itself from what exactly? The money that it's going to throw away by killing him?
[QUOTE=Duck M.;51535762]I think the question is if our current system is even giving them that chance.[/quote] The answer to that question is no. Let me be clear. I want prison reform, particularly in my own country. We don't do rehabilitation well enough here. I'm not in a position to say whether this man can be helped, but from what he's said, I would lean towards a new and thus life imprisonment. [quote]I agree, but do you think that he'd necessarily be the same for the rest of his life with all other factors accounted for?[/QUOTE] Hard to say. Perhaps some can be cured. That's up for the doctors to decide, and they should assess people like him once every year. I still believe however, the answer will be no.
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;51535773]The threat of his future actions, backed by the precedent set by his past actions?[/QUOTE] Except he's going to be behind bars his whole life? There is no threat of future actions to society in that case.
[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;51535784]The answer to that question is no. Let me be clear. I want prison reform, particularly in my own country. We don't do rehabilitation well enough here. I'm not in a position to say whether this man can be helped, but from what he's said, I would lean towards a new and thus life imprisonment. Hard to say. Perhaps some can be cured. That's up for the doctors to decide, and they should assess people like him once every year. I still believe however, the answer will be no.[/QUOTE] Seems like you and me have pretty similar stances on justice reform, actually. Idk if you saw my post on the last page but it kinda talked about the same sort of stuff. [editline]15th December 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=RenegadeCop;51535811]Break outs?[/QUOTE] A pretty insignificant possibility considering the conditions of his incarceration. [QUOTE]What if he is considered rehabilitated, is let out, and then attacks again?[/QUOTE] I think this is the greatest issue with the rehabilitation argument. The logistics might be difficult but perhaps probation, counseling and regular psychiatric assessments after release would help ease his re-integration. I think the biggest reason ex-cons tend to relapse is because they're just thrown back into society with no assistance and they're forced to turn back to their previous lives. Many attempts I've seen at giving ex-cons a better life and more opportunities into reintegrating seem to be successful. [QUOTE]What about attacks against black in-mates?[/QUOTE] Well that's a major problem I see with our prison systems. Prison violence and assault, sexual or otherwise, is way too widespread. Thats something that the prisons need to work out themselves.
When people say that they feel the death penalty is the best solution in a certain case or that it should be used in extreme cases I wonder if they feel that they have considered the matter more thoroughly than all of the blue countries: [img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5d/Capital_punishment_world.png/640px-Capital_punishment_world.png[/img]
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;51535811]Break outs? What if he is considered rehabilitated, is let out, and then attacks again? What about attacks against black in-mates?[/QUOTE] How common are breakouts? Are we supposed to make this assumption with all inmates? Why not kill all of them? If he attacks again, he isn't rehabilitated now is he? I was also suggesting he gets life in prison, and in this particular case he would get that sentence a dozen times that amounts to hundreds of years if I'm not mistaken? Attacking other inmates is already extremely common in the prison system, what's one more? Are we really killing him so he can't beat up another black inmate? Not only that, but shouldn't we be trying to stop the entirety of violence in prisons rather than killing one in order to just stop him? [editline]15th December 2016[/editline] Very strange rhetorical question debate we're having here :v: [editline]15th December 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Duck M.;51535822]Seems like you and me have pretty similar stances on justice reform, actually. Idk if you saw my post on the last page but it kinda talked about the same sort of stuff. [editline]15th December 2016[/editline] A pretty insignificant possibility considering the conditions of his incarceration. I think this is the greatest issue with the rehabilitation argument. The logistics might be difficult but perhaps probation, counseling and regular psychiatric assessments after release would help ease his re-integration. I think the biggest reason ex-cons tend to relapse is because they're just thrown back into society with no assistance and they're forced to turn back to their previous lives. Many attempts I've seen at giving ex-cons a better life and more opportunities into reintegrating seem to be successful. Well that's a major problem I see with our prison systems. Prison violence and assault, sexual or otherwise, is way too widespread. Thats something that the prisons need to work out themselves.[/QUOTE] You put it all better than I did.
[QUOTE=Dr.C;51534940]I hope in prison, he learns the errors of his ways and becomes an outspoken critic against racism and the US penal system and does everything he can to make up for his crimes and become a better person.[/QUOTE] This
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;51535919]This statement is somewhat shocking to me, I think in-mates safety should be a priority in our system. You don't have to murder someone to get in prison. It is definitely not just and fair to have a "what's one more?" attitude toward violence. And yeah, I just realized how many questions we are asking each other haha And we don't kill all of them, because not all of them committed 9 murders fueled by racist intents. And it was [I]planned[/I], that's the scary thing. It wasn't a spur of the moment.[/QUOTE] What's even more shocking to me is that you're shocked by prison violence and not by the killing of a human being. There's a kind of dissonance between your points. Also, the planned bit makes me think he's more able to be rehabilitated. If someone just kills people in the spur of the moment, who knows when or what will set them off? You can teach people right and wrong and show them the punishment associated with committing acts like this, however you can't outteach genetics. Can you teach a dog to fly or a fish to sing? Sure, a better example would be teaching a dog to not pee on the carpet, but what if it's a wolf? Much of the modular behavior we see in dog is because of the thousands of years of breeding they've been subjected to. If you're willing to give a chance at life for those who kill in the spur of the moment, why not those who planned it? And most importantly of all, why can't we just keep them both locked up forever? (hopefully without violent incidents) [editline]15th December 2016[/editline] And yeah, I actually appreciate that we're having a debate rather than something more degenerate like a slur contest that often permeates Sensationalist Headlines.
He needs to rot just like McVeigh did.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.