EU campaigns set for final showdown tonight with 'great debate' at Wembley Stadium
189 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Cypher_09;50563052]I guess we have a thing about being independent, but wanting to own everybody else.[/QUOTE]
That pretty much sums up western culture
[QUOTE=Shadow801;50563106]That pretty much sums up western culture[/QUOTE]
What is it about it now being cool to be so against your own nations for their historical faults? "you're a white male"
I cant believe people think the bullshit in some debate will have any effect, the majority had picked a side months if not years ago
[QUOTE=Cypher_09;50563121]What is it about it now being cool to be so against your own nations for their historical faults? "you're a white male"[/QUOTE]
Historical guilt is the catalyst for political correctness.
The single most irritating thing about all of this is how people making educated economic forecasts can be dismissed in a lot of people's eyes by "they don't believe in britain" and that facts can be dismissed as fear mongering if they are 'negative'. Vote leave if you want, I respect your right to an opinion, but please do so under the knowledge that we will take a hit over the next few years. I think once my exams are over, if we vote leave, I need to write to my MP to ask him to try and work to ensure that young people aren't left in limbo in the economy as we renegotiate (he'll do fuck all; a toaster would be a better representative for me as at least it wouldn't actively campaign against my opinions, but I digress).
[QUOTE=SebiWarrior;50563038]america electing trump
uk leaving the eu
what's with english speaking people and shooting themselves in the foot[/QUOTE]
The day an Italian can lecture another country about how its run is the day pigs fly
[QUOTE=waylander;50563130]I cant believe people think the bullshit in some debate will have any effect, the majority had picked a side months if not years ago[/QUOTE]
This debate won't sway many but debates can sway the fence sitters to a degree.
[QUOTE=NeonpieDFTBA;50563147]The single most irritating thing about all of this is how people making educated economic forecasts can be dismissed in a lot of people's eyes by "they don't believe in britain" and that facts can be dismissed as fear mongering if they are 'negative'. Vote leave if you want, I respect your right to an opinion, but please do so under the knowledge that we will take a hit over the next few years. I think once my exams are over, if we vote leave, I need to write to my MP to ask him to try and work to ensure that young people aren't left in limbo in the economy as we renegotiate (he'll do fuck all; a toaster would be a better representative for me as at least it wouldn't actively campaign against my opinions, but I digress).[/QUOTE]
This exactly.
I've got the most important years ahead of me - I'm 23 and I need to build a foundation for the rest of my life. I would rather not do that in a midst of a recession, no thank you.
[QUOTE=Complifusedv2;50563162]The day an Italian can lecture another country about how its run is the day pigs fly[/QUOTE]
lol yeah because [I]he[/I] is personally responsible for Italy's economic problems
[QUOTE=NeonpieDFTBA;50563147]The single most irritating thing about all of this is how people making educated economic forecasts can be dismissed in a lot of people's eyes by "they don't believe in britain" and that facts can be dismissed as fear mongering if they are 'negative'. Vote leave if you want, I respect your right to an opinion, but please do so under the knowledge that we will take a hit over the next few years. I think once my exams are over, if we vote leave, I need to write to my MP to ask him to try and work to ensure that young people aren't left in limbo in the economy as we renegotiate (he'll do fuck all; a toaster would be a better representative for me as at least it wouldn't actively campaign against my opinions, but I digress).[/QUOTE]
The single most irritating thing about all of this is how people believe educated economic forecasts as if they have ever been right in the past.
[QUOTE=NeonpieDFTBA;50563147]The single most irritating thing about all of this is how people making educated economic forecasts can be dismissed in a lot of people's eyes by "they don't believe in britain" and that facts can be dismissed as fear mongering if they are 'negative'. Vote leave if you want, I respect your right to an opinion, but please do so under the knowledge that we will take a hit over the next few years. I think once my exams are over, if we vote leave, I need to write to my MP to ask him to try and work to ensure that young people aren't left in limbo in the economy as we renegotiate (he'll do fuck all; a toaster would be a better representative for me as at least it wouldn't actively campaign against my opinions, but I digress).[/QUOTE]
The entire referendum was a mistake, it's letting people with no idea about what they're talking about make a decision that could affect millions of lives. Ridiculous honestly
[QUOTE=zupadupazupadude;50563174]lol yeah because [I]he[/I] is personally responsible for Italy's economic problems[/QUOTE]
REMAIN LATEST: If pigs could fly, pork will go up.
[QUOTE=Cypher_09;50561219]Welp, there goes my night!
They missed out not having Farage[/QUOTE]
Trust me, Farage not being somewhere is always good for that place.
[QUOTE=karlosfandango;50563178]The single most irritating thing about all of this is how people believe educated economic forecasts as if they have ever been right in the past.[/QUOTE]
They tend to be reasonably accurate and this is a rare case where everyone agrees. They aren't going to be exact but leaving the EU will, in the short term, cause uncertainty and hurt the economy. Long term, it will probably be similar but until the disentangling is sorted out there will be uncertainty and investment will be delayed.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;50563180]The entire referendum was a mistake, it's letting people with no idea about what they're talking about make a decision that could affect millions of lives. Ridiculous honestly[/QUOTE]
And politicians do?
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;50563180]The entire referendum was a mistake, it's letting people with no idea about what they're talking about make a decision that could affect millions of lives. Ridiculous honestly[/QUOTE]
If remain wins, at least it sets the precedent that yes, the uk did in fact choose to be a part of this.
[QUOTE=karlosfandango;50563178]The single most irritating thing about all of this is how people believe educated economic forecasts as if they have ever been right in the past.[/QUOTE]
It's better to base your decisions on an analytical forecast (that has been right in the past but whatever, we ignored warnings of housing bubbles and shit because MONEY!!) than to just wing it and go with your gut feeling.
If anything is eroding politics right now, it's people basing decisions on nothing but gut feeling hoping it'll all turn out right in the end. We didn't spend decades working on economic or whatever models that can be used to fairly accurately predict the outcome of things for nothing.
[QUOTE=NeonpieDFTBA;50563195]They tend to be reasonably accurate and this is a rare case where everyone agrees. They aren't going to be exact but leaving the EU will, in the short term, cause uncertainty and hurt the economy. Long term, it will probably be similar but until the disentangling is sorted out there will be uncertainty and investment will be delayed.[/QUOTE]
Well who is in this short term?
[QUOTE=karlosfandango;50563199]And politicians do?[/QUOTE]
It is their job, they at least know slightly better than your average pleb.
[QUOTE=NeonpieDFTBA;50563147]The single most irritating thing about all of this is how people making educated economic forecasts can be dismissed in a lot of people's eyes by "they don't believe in britain" and that facts can be dismissed as fear mongering if they are 'negative'. Vote leave if you want, I respect your right to an opinion, but please do so under the knowledge that we will take a hit over the next few years. I think once my exams are over, if we vote leave, I need to write to my MP to ask him to try and work to ensure that young people aren't left in limbo in the economy as we renegotiate (he'll do fuck all; a toaster would be a better representative for me as at least it wouldn't actively campaign against my opinions, but I digress).[/QUOTE]
Yes, in the short term it is highly likely we will take a hit and I think most favouring Brexit don't deny this (though of course some do, including, it seems, Boris). However, in the longer term it is much harder to judge. Given the track record of economists on Europe I don't blame people for being suspicious. In the 1990s (can't remember an exact date) a survey of top British economists found that 2/3 believe we would be badly damaged by not joining the Euro. A more recent survey showed that 75% of economists at the pro-EU Centre for European Reform believed the Euro to be a mistake. Economists are bad judges in the long run in general, and seem to be very bad judges of Europe in particular. I personally think they're largely right, but I can understand why people aren't all that interested in their views given their track record. I think that anyone talking disparagingly of the Leave campaigns views on 'experts' should have a closer look into why people don't trust experts instead of a knee-jerk reaction calling it populism.
[QUOTE=karlosfandango;50563164]This debate won't sway many but debates can sway the fence sitters to a degree.[/QUOTE]
I think celebrity endorsements and employers telling people jobs might be at risk hold more weight to most people than people they perceive as lying scumbags
[QUOTE=hexpunK;50563205]It's better to base your decisions on an analytical forecast (that has been right in the past but whatever, we ignored warnings of housing bubbles and shit because MONEY!!) than to just wing it and go with your gut feeling.
If anything is eroding politics right now, it's people basing decisions on nothing but gut feeling hoping it'll all turn out right in the end. We didn't spend decades working on economic or whatever models that can be used to fairly accurately predict the outcome of things for nothing.[/QUOTE]
Nobody is, Cameron said on Question Time this week that there is a plan if we Brexit. But that his personal view is we will be better off in the short term.
Can anyone guarantee the longevity or success of the EU?
NO!
[QUOTE=karlosfandango;50563208]Well who is in this short term?[/QUOTE]
I don't understand what you're asking? Everyone who will live in Britain over the next 2-5ish years?
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;50563229]Yes, in the short term it is highly likely we will take a hit and I think most favouring Brexit don't deny this (though of course some do, including, it seems, Boris). However, in the longer term it is much harder to judge. Given the track record of economists on Europe I don't blame people for being suspicious. In the 1990s (can't remember an exact date) a survey of top British economists found that 2/3 believe we would be badly damaged by not joining the Euro. A more recent survey showed that 75% of economists at the pro-EU Centre for European Reform believed the Euro to be a mistake. Economists are bad judges in the long run in general, and seem to be very bad judges of Europe in particular. I personally think they're largely right, but I can understand why people aren't all that interested in their views given their track record. I think that anyone talking disparagingly of the Leave campaigns views on 'experts' should have a closer look into why people don't trust experts instead of a knee-jerk reaction calling it populism.[/QUOTE]
Whenever I've seen Gove, Johnson or other figures confronted with the suggestion that the economy will take a hit over the next few years they instantly fall back on 'project fear'.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;50563215]It is their job, they at least know slightly better than your average pleb.[/QUOTE]
But as we all know, they get it wrong.
There are conflicting opinions from experts depending on which experts you wish to listen to.
These opinions are based on what? it's not like they have anything to compare the situation to.
[editline]21st June 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=NeonpieDFTBA;50563273]I don't understand what you're asking? Everyone who will live in Britain over the next 2-5ish years?[/QUOTE]
my point is, long term is more important.
The Brexit would take over 2 years to implement anyway according to Cameron this week.
[QUOTE=karlosfandango;50563275]But as we all know, they get it wrong.
There are conflicting opinions from experts depending on which experts you wish to listen to.
These opinions are based on what? it's not like they have anything to compare the situation to.[/QUOTE]
Brexit will undoubtedly be a disaster for everyone other than multinationals, who I'm sure Boris will do his best to protect at the expense of everyone else.
[QUOTE=karlosfandango;50563275]But as we all know, they get it wrong.
There are conflicting opinions from experts depending on which experts you wish to listen to.
These opinions are based on what? it's not like they have anything to compare the situation to.[/QUOTE]
Based on understanding how markets react to situations. When there is uncertainty people invest less, and as we renegotiate there will be a lot. The vast majority of experts agree that it will hurt. You're welcome to decide this is worth it, but it's highly probable and rejecting it is not sensible.
[QUOTE=karlosfandango;50563275]
my point is, long term is more important.
The Brexit would take over 2 years to implement anyway according to Cameron this week.[/QUOTE]
Sure, but long term has no clear winner. 2 years is if everything goes well, seen as the EU is pretty big and there is no precedent for how to leave.
[QUOTE=karlosfandango;50563251]Nobody is, Cameron said on Question Time this week that there is a plan if we Brexit. But that his personal view is we will be better off in the short term.
Can anyone guarantee the longevity or success of the EU?
NO![/QUOTE]
I agree with that why sabotage the short term for a nebulous long term benefit? I think some of the arguments I hear most from each side are baseless (sovereignty and free movement) and we are no worse off in than out
There will be a slump due to uncertainty, but the evidence that a Brexit will destroy our economy doesn't really hold up. It's the same arguments and statistics that economists made when we didn't join the Euro and when Norway had their EU referendum in the 90s. In both cases the economic predictions turned out to be completely wrong.
[QUOTE=SpartanApples;50563333]There will be a slump due to uncertainty, but the evidence that a Brexit will destroy our economy doesn't really hold up. It's the same arguments and statistics that economists made when we didn't join the Euro and when Norway had their EU referendum in the 90s. In both cases the economic predictions turned out to be completely wrong.[/QUOTE]
I'll be clear here: I don't expect it will be a crash. I don't expect that many people will lose jobs. What will be hurt is new investment, and what worries me is the people who need that investment, people looking to get into the job market in the next few years, will struggle in an already difficult environment which will only be made harder by the uncertainty. For those who are not needing to find new work over the next few years, that is fine because if you're in education (and I am among those who will be in school, likely for the duration), then things will be kicking off again when you get out, or if you have job security then you can rely on that. For those who don't, however, it could leave them unable to find much employment and have longer term effects on those individuals. Some of those people are my friends and my family, and that is my concern with the short term knocks.
[QUOTE=SpartanApples;50563333]There will be a slump due to uncertainty, but the evidence that a Brexit will destroy our economy doesn't really hold up. It's the same arguments and statistics that economists made when we didn't join the Euro and when Norway had their EU referendum in the 90s. In both cases the economic predictions turned out to be completely wrong.[/QUOTE]
Some people can't look past the material, money and all it's worries. Remain lacks virtue in that regard.
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