• German Filmmaker has 3400 children run over graves at Verdun to commemorate anniversary of Battle
    68 replies, posted
[QUOTE=DELL;50452061]What? You can not prove there is an afterlife nor can you prove there is not, so it is just that a possibility. Now if you can show me some where in the physics that the energy of the brain is able to stay in a stable form after death well then that possibility is a certain instead. So go do some math and get back to me you neckbeard with your fedora.[/QUOTE] Please go away with your pseudo-intellectual bullshit. If you can't spare the brain cells to comprehend the rationale of why running on a fucking grave is seen in a negative light then you need to take classes in basic social skills.
[QUOTE=Cocacoladude;50452102]Please go away with your pseudo-intellectual bullshit. If you can't spare the brain cells to comprehend the rationale of why running on a fucking grave is seen in a negative light then you need to take classes in basic social skills.[/QUOTE] Being great at sociable doesn't mean anything in regards to intellectual ability. If it was Trump would be comparable to Einstein. Just because I lack your idea of respect doesn't mean anything, if you did get the fact that humans will meet extinction it doesn't matter what grave you run on. Is it a waste of time yes, did it help humans prolong their existence no, does it actually matter at all no. Just because you can't accept that dead don't care, you feel the need to put an arbitrary value on it due to your own perceived reality. Dead things do not care only the living who refuse to see reality care, most likely due to fear.
[QUOTE=CodeMonkey3;50451469]Why in the graveyard? I get what they were going for but like, in the graveyard? Why not at the site of the battle or like on the lawn? I guess it's a contrast or some sort of statement like that. Fallen soldiers in battle in their graves and children playing now, like a result of their sacrifice is that kids can play there but I don't really get it either.[/QUOTE] if i remember correctly, the graveyard [I]was[/I] a battlefield, but ya theres places where they could have gone, verdun was a massive battlefield and the entire town was leveled so they put the cemetary in the middle of the worst
[QUOTE=DELL;50452214]Being great at sociable doesn't mean anything in regards to intellectual ability. If it was Trump would be comparable to Einstein. Just because I lack your idea of respect doesn't mean anything, if you did get the fact that humans will meet extinction it doesn't matter what grave you run on. Is it a waste of time yes, did it help humans prolong their existence no, does it actually matter at all no. Just because you can't accept that dead don't care, you feel the need to put an arbitrary value on it due to your own perceived reality. Dead things do not care only the living who refuse to see reality care, most likely due to fear.[/QUOTE] you're trying too hard, get over yourself
I'm on my phone so please forgive any typos or grammatical errors, as well this won't be as in depth or expasnive of a response as I'd like - but oh well. [quote=Dell]various things[/quote] Firstly, we remember and honor the dead not for their sake - but ours. So we don't forget what others did, what others sacrificed, and what others were willing to give. In addition to that, its for the sake of those they left behind, and those who followed. We live on the shoulders of giants, and to not acknowledge those giants because in your eyes its pointless as it doesn't get us to space or something along those eyes is insulting. We can come to a much better understanding of both our species, and our society by studying the past and remembering it actively. Secondly, your logic is flawed in terms of the draft (and ignores the amount of volunteers anyway) because wouldn't you think if they were tricked or ripped out of their homes to go fight we'd CERTAINLY want to honor them due to the injustice that befell them if that's the case? And your video comment missed the point, you're still not first hand seeing it. You're not visiting the countless graves of those who gave their lives, you're not holding a piece of their equipment in your hand - that sort of reality doesn't actually set in until you see it yourself. Ah, who am I kidding though just fucking bulldoze Auschwitz already its the past who fucking cares
[QUOTE=Dissolution;50452289]you're trying too hard, get over yourself[/QUOTE] The short answer to that is no and well you get the long answer. Will you really care once you're dead?
[QUOTE=DELL;50452371]The short answer to that is no and well you get the long answer. Will you really care once you're dead?[/QUOTE] you've ignored literally every single actual response that you've gotten so far, so why the fuck should I argue the same thing? just stop -edit- and for the posts you actually did respond to, it was angsty teenager shit like 'If look at the big picture it doesn't matter as all humans will fall and everything will be forgotten.' what a fucking stance, right? you really opened my eyes. if you 'look at the big picture' then nothing matters, so fuck everything and fuck all sentiment and human emotion. -edit- honestly I can't believe that you're being serious right now. good for you for being against war, but the way you're applying that is so fucking ridiculous and insulting. the french defended themselves from an offensive attack and suffered massive casualties as a result. you aren't bringing up some revolutionary idea by saying that commemorating the loss doesn't bring back the dead, you're just being a moron. it's the only consolation that the families of the over 300k killed will EVER receive, and the fact that you're selfish and secluded enough to think that they should just forget about the people they lost is just fucking offensive. this is ignoring all the other points about the importance of remembrance and commemoration. you live in fucking canada dude, i know you were forced to read and listen to the flanders fields poem amongst others throughout your school years, i know you had veterans and soldiers come to remembrance day ceremonies, because i had the same thing. you're just spitting in the face of people who have experienced serious loss when you say this shit
[QUOTE=DELL;50452371]The short answer to that is no and well you get the long answer. Will you really care once you're dead?[/QUOTE] You're making a huge fucking assumption if you believe that three hundred thousand people universally wouldn't care about their bodies after they're dead. Everything you say screams, "Fuck 'em, they're dead. Why should I give them a shred of respect?" They might have wanted their bodies to be treated with care after their deaths, but your almighty word takes precedent over their final requests purely because A) you're still walking on this earth and B) "it's all futile in my fedorable opinion". Why don't we make the RMS [i]Titanic[/i] into a theme park and turn Gettysburg into a parking lot? Let's make the World Trade Center fountain into a waterslide while we're at it, too. I mean, they're dead and everything in life is futile anyway, right?
[QUOTE=Cheshire_cat;50452425]Why don't we make the RMS [i]Titanic[/i] into a theme park and turn Gettysburg into a parking lot? Let's make the World Trade Center fountain into a waterslide while we're at it, too. I mean, they're dead and everything in life is futile anyway, right?[/QUOTE] Well the answer is yes as that's all emotional. In the range of 100-500 years it could very well be overwritten and forgotten in a physical space. What people want doesn't matter as math and logic overtake. I don't want my corpse changed in any way, well your corpse cures some problem guess what fuck what you want the problem comes first. [editline]3rd June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Dissolution;50452398]you've ignored literally every single actual response that you've gotten so far, so why the fuck should I argue the same thing? just stop -edit- and for the posts you actually did respond to, it was angsty teenager shit like 'If look at the big picture it doesn't matter as all humans will fall and everything will be forgotten.' what a fucking stance, right? you really opened my eyes. if you 'look at the big picture' then nothing matters, so fuck everything and fuck all sentiment and human emotion. -edit- honestly I can't believe that you're being serious right now. good for you for being against war, but the way you're applying that is so fucking ridiculous and insulting. the french defended themselves from an offensive attack and suffered massive casualties as a result. you aren't bringing up some revolutionary idea by saying that commemorating the loss doesn't bring back the dead, you're just being a moron. it's the only consolation that the families of the over 300k killed will EVER receive, and the fact that you're selfish and secluded enough to think that they should just forget about the people they lost is just fucking offensive. this is ignoring all the other points about the importance of remembrance and commemoration. you live in fucking canada dude, i know you were forced to read and listen to the flanders fields poem amongst others throughout your school years, i know you had veterans and soldiers come to remembrance day ceremonies, because i had the same thing. you're just spitting in the face of people who have experienced serious loss when you say this shit[/QUOTE] Offensive is subjective and loss is as well. As a nihilist nothing matters nor does any sort of meaning so the best thing to do is progress because why not find out if this is a giant computer simulation or not? The fact the families won't let it go is the sad thing, the past happened so learn then move on is the best way to honor. If you died for it just to go in circles the death's hold no value at all as then it's just doomed to repeat. You also didn't answer my question, why is that? As you answered all the other points you considered valid.
[QUOTE=Dissolution;50452398]honestly I can't believe that you're being serious right now. good for you for being against war, but the way you're applying that is so fucking ridiculous and insulting.[/QUOTE] I don't even think it's an anti-war thing, I'm anti-war but that's the entire reason why I study war, and want to teach people about and remember those who fought so that we don't make the same mistake again. It's kinda funny, right now I'm reading Poiliu, which is the notebooks/memoir of Louis Barthas - a French Barrelmaker, socialist, pacifist, and corporal in the French army. Here's a quote I just read in this book [quote]"And you," said Ferie to me, "you who are writing about the life we're leading here, don't hide anything. You've got to tell it all." "Yes, yes, everything, everything. We'll be there as your witnesses. Maybe we won't all die here," added the others. "They won't believe us," said Mondies, "[i]or maybe they won't even give a damn[/i]"[/quote] That last bit speaks volumes about this thread tbh
[QUOTE=DELL;50452459]Well the answer is yes as that's all emotional. In the range of 100-500 years it could very well be overwritten and forgotten in a physical space. What people want doesn't matter as math and logic overtake. I don't want my corpse changed in any way, well your corpse cures some problem guess what fuck what you want the problem comes first.[/QUOTE] yeah, I agree, fuck the guy who doesn't want to use his cancer-curing body for science. except there aren't 150k of them. except, in all likelyhood, that one guy didn't fight off forces for the safety and survival of you and your country. stop arguing with small-scale unlikely examples to justify your large-scale extreme opinions. i wasn't aware a bunch of children trampling your memorial is 'math and logic' overtaking. go fuck yourself. [QUOTE=DELL;50452459]You also didn't answer my question, why is that? As you answered all the other points you considered valid.[/QUOTE] if I die fighting for your right to live, I wouldn't want you campaigning to desecrate my corpse, grave, and memory. especially with a completely inapplicable justification. ultimately your opinion isn't going to change because 'heheh im a nihilist i check out gore threads on 4chan guys' and because you're only responding to people that you're pissing off so I'm done entertaining this
[QUOTE=Dissolution;50452488]yeah, I agree, fuck the guy who doesn't want to use his cancer-curing body for science. except there aren't 150k of them. except, in all likelyhood, that one guy didn't fight off forces for the safety and survival of you and your country. stop arguing with small-scale unlikely examples to justify your large-scale extreme opinions. i wasn't aware a bunch of children trampling your memorial is 'math and logic' overtaking. go fuck yourself.[/QUOTE] Countries are nonsense and small-scale things can effect large scale things. As part of WW1 was started by a small scale effect [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Archduke_Franz_Ferdinand_of_Austria[/url] Leading to a large scale extreme. [editline]3rd June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Dissolution;50452488] ultimately your opinion isn't going to change because 'heheh im a nihilist i check out gore threads on 4chan guys' and because you're only responding to people that you're pissing off so I'm done entertaining this[/QUOTE] If you back yourself up with facts I could change it, so far I've heard your opinion and that illogical emotions should dictate how the world is viewed.
[QUOTE=DELL;50452509] illogical emotions should dictate how the world is viewed.[/QUOTE] My, how progressive we are.
[QUOTE=Cocacoladude;50452555]My, how progressive we are.[/QUOTE] Say humans make a sentient AI that then learns how to remove it's own emotion. Now if it were to not kill all the humans it would dicate the world on logic. If humans said no it must be done on emotions then it would most likely kill every human. As well as if we come in contact with anything else that is superior to humans. As basing the what to do on a emotional level would most likely end with all humans being killed. Logic should dictated how the world is viewed and progress. Emotions should only be the thing that removes death from your life and gives you pleasure. When it comes down to a choice though it should be based in logic. Not that you're debating anyways you're just running in circles.
[QUOTE=DELL;50452600] Logic should dictated how the world is viewed and progress. Emotions should only be the thing that removes death from your life and gives you pleasure. When it comes down to a choice though it should be based in logic.[/QUOTE] 1010101011101010010100100101010000011001? 000111111010100010! 10101010.... [editline]4th June 2016[/editline] There are definitely times emotion should take priority over logic. Choosing between your work, your family and your friends is the simplest example I can think of where you should be going by heart
[QUOTE=Dr. Ethan Asia;50451920]Some knobhead sticks his head out of a ditch and that's great? These men were forced to fight and die in a war they didn't really understand. Don't dress them up as noble paragons of justice and rightness, because that devalues the horrors of what they went through - I don't think, when they were trudging through mud and over dead bodies, they were filled with zeal for their fatherlands. They were thinking "oh God, I hope that if I die today it's quick". They were told to go and put on a uniform, and that's what they did. That's not a sacrifice; a sacrifice has to be willing.[/QUOTE] This is a terrible post. First off, you're being really presumptuous thinking that I'm "dressing them up as noble paragons of justice and righteousness". That's not what I'm fucking doing, and how you could possibly come to that conclusion I'm not even going to consider. I'm well aware of the significance of the war, the significance of the Battle of Verdun (the site of commemoration in question here, which for the record you're wrong about; [url=http://www.pbs.org/greatwar/historian/hist_audoin_03_verdun.html]many French soldiers believed that this battle was a fight for France itself and were committed to it because of the consequences that would've unfolded if the Germans had won[/url]), and more importantly, I'm not the one saying that these people don't deserve to be remembered-- because fact is, they do. But more importantly: they were part of an extraordinary conflict that shaped the entire course of the 20th century and by extension world history as it continues to unfold today, they had the opportunity to experience both terrible and fascinating things, their personal stories and the stories of the times that they lived in have a lot to teach generations of people alive today, and for these reasons (although there are others) they absolutely deserve to be remembered. And that's how simple it is. I seriously doubt DELL has participated in anything comparable in his life, or that you have either for that matter. Also, don't call them "knobheads". Thanks.
[QUOTE=bdd458;50451424] video of incident in first source. terrible, and quite frankly disrespectful way to pay respects. if it wasn't at the graveyard, fine - but this was done on their graves. [/QUOTE] disagreed. it's important to poetically express complex emotions and feelings and filmmaking as an artform especially requires this freedom. thousands of people walk over those graves every day. who gives a shit about a few kids, especially when it's intended to commemorate
I think it's a bit silly that people are saying this is disrespectful, or that we may as well "fucking bulldoze Auschwitz". This was a piece of performance art to commemorate the dead, I doubt they did it against anybody's wishes and ground is ground. Stuff like this makes me think of graveyards, some of them are on beautiful spaces of land, untouched due to their status of graveyards, they make for serene places to walk, and I've seen people walk their dogs and stuff through them. I bet a bunch of people find that disrespectful, but I don't think it is. People aren't buried right beneath the surface dirt, so running over the graves like this in no way damages or disturbs the remains of the dead. It can't be disrespectful when it was literally done in commemoration. So where's the harm?
[QUOTE=Govna;50452794] I'm well aware of the significance of the war, the significance of the Battle of Verdun (the site of commemoration in question here, which for the record you're wrong about; [url=http://www.pbs.org/greatwar/historian/hist_audoin_03_verdun.html]many French soldiers believed that this battle was a fight for France itself and were committed to it because of the consequences that would've unfolded if the Germans had won[/url]),.[/QUOTE] That's just wrong. The French army was suffering from the lowest morale of the war during Verdun - not unreasonably, seeing as how awful the battle was - officers were shot and whole regiments punished for insubordination, and the number of deserters (some of whom betrayed their army to the Germans) got to the point that there had to be a general order that French soldiers were not to surrender. "Mankind is mad" was the sentiment expressed by a French officer and that was the general feeling. The army was close to mutiny by 1917. To suggest that the trenches of Verdun were filled with the nationalism and zeal of the beginning of the war, or that the average [I]poilu [/I]was committed to it, is just wrong. They were fighting for survival and that is it. My point was that if you turn these men into selfless heroes you sanitise the war somewhat - most of the men lying under those graves were "dismembered, torn to pieces, reduced to pulp" and they were fighting because if they didn't, their own side would shoot them. Their experiences were valuable, yes, but they weren't great, and the men who had them shouldn't be considered sacred or virtuous, because that would sanitise and justify the war.
[QUOTE=Thomo_UK;50451484]Doing it on graves is a bloody stupid idea. Respect the dead.[/QUOTE] Graveyards waste quite a lot of space in the end, so one could argue that graveyards in itself are a bloody stupid idea.
I honestly don't see the big deal. People are probably already walking there all the time to cut the grass and whatnot anyway.
It's also not great to walk over designated graves encase the ground gives below you.
[QUOTE=Hauptmann;50451499]The kids could just have lowered their pants and taken shits on the graveyard that it wouldn't be different at all.[/QUOTE] I'd call that a bit of a stretch but it's clesr there's some poor taste here, even though it's well-intentioned.
[QUOTE=Thomo_UK;50451644]Really? We respect the dead by literally every year paying respect to them by having minutes silence. Their graves and their names etched into memorials are all they have left.[/QUOTE] That's because we either knew them when they were alive, or they were important to our history in some way (e.g. memorials to those who died fighting in a war, or to past leaders of our nations, and even then it depends on your view of that history). The dead are just that: they're dead. They have ceased to exist as individuals with feelings, emotions, needs, and wants. There's literally no reason to care about what they feel, because [i]they do not feel[/i]. When we respect the dead, we're not paying tribute to them, we're paying tribute to our memories of them. If I never knew someone when they were alive, I fail to see why I should suddenly have to respect them the moment they drew their last breath. [editline]4th June 2016[/editline] I should add that walking over graves is distasteful, but not because of some nebulous notion of disrespecting the dead, but because friends and families of those buried had (and have) a deep connection to the person buried there, and walking over it is commonly (and understandably) seen as a form of insult. So when we avoid walking over graves, it's not because we're afraid of insulting the person buried there. It's because we don't want to hurt the feelings of those who knew that person when they were alive.
[QUOTE=FFStudios;50452942]disagreed. it's important to poetically express complex emotions and feelings and filmmaking as an artform especially requires this freedom. thousands of people walk over those graves every day. who gives a shit about a few kids, especially when it's intended to commemorate[/QUOTE] There's a distinct difference between walking a graveyard (or doing basic matienence), and having a few thousand children (who are wearing whatever) run over the graves in a ridiculous attempt at performance art. I'm sure if any veterans were still alive today they's appreciate kids trampling over their comrades graves /s [QUOTE=Menien Goneld;50453188]I think it's a bit silly that people are saying this is disrespectful, or that we may as well "fucking bulldoze Auschwitz". [/quote] That was a very specific comment to a very specific indivdual who said we shouldn't bother remembering the past at all.
[QUOTE=ScottyWired;50452676]1010101011101010010100100101010000011001? 000111111010100010! 10101010.... [editline]4th June 2016[/editline] There are definitely times emotion should take priority over logic. Choosing between your work, your family and your friends is the simplest example I can think of where you should be going by heart[/QUOTE] If I used emotions in regards to all those disregarding work, I'd still be abusing massive amounts of drugs. Well and in my heart of heart the thing that gives me the most pleasure and cuddly warm feelings outside of love is inflicting pain upon others. Though love doesn't normally happen whenever people you know sees you as a threat generally.
the depressing thing about world war one is that it was probably the most avoidable war in history - and little good came out of it as the world was left a much worse place at its conclusion. even worse is the fact that the problems it set out to "solve" were done so in such a terrible way that it directly created the conditions for the next avoidable world war
[QUOTE=GordonZombie;50453877]I'd call that a bit of a stretch but it's clear there's some poor taste here, even though it's well-intentioned.[/QUOTE] The way the commemorations at Verdun were decided to be was the subject of a big debate in France. First the Elysée wanted to invite a well known rapper, the problem was that this rapper openly spit on France and the french people, called for the castration of all the homosexuals, and many more disgusting things. This decision lead to a huge outrage amongst the french population, forcing the state to cancel the concert of the fucktard. And of course, the Elysée justified the cancellation of the concert by saying it was the fault of the far-right, and that all of that made them remember the Occupation. Now, not seeing how they fucked up with what they did for the 70th anniversary of D-Day, they repeated the same thing but now in Verdun, and on the graves of the dead soldiers on top of that. I'm sorry but I fail to see how the french government is well-intentioned, seeing how much they contributed to spitting on their dead. I'm glad that the belgian government actually cares about respecting the dead soldiers of WW1(and WW2) by not trying to force an agenda through the commemorations. Hell, everyday we remember the men from the Commonwealth countries who fell on our soil, with the Last Post every night, or by sending sandbags full of dirt from the Flanders' battlefields to London.
[QUOTE=Dr. Ethan Asia;50453564]That's just wrong. The French army was suffering from the lowest morale of the war during Verdun - not unreasonably, seeing as how awful the battle was - officers were shot and whole regiments punished for insubordination, and the number of deserters (some of whom betrayed their army to the Germans) got to the point that there had to be a general order that French soldiers were not to surrender. "Mankind is mad" was the sentiment expressed by a French officer and that was the general feeling. The army was close to mutiny by 1917. To suggest that the trenches of Verdun were filled with the nationalism and zeal of the beginning of the war, or that the average [I]poilu [/I]was committed to it, is just wrong. They were fighting for survival and that is it. My point was that if you turn these men into selfless heroes you sanitise the war somewhat - most of the men lying under those graves were "dismembered, torn to pieces, reduced to pulp" and they were fighting because if they didn't, their own side would shoot them. Their experiences were valuable, yes, but they weren't great, and the men who had them shouldn't be considered sacred or virtuous, because that would sanitise and justify the war.[/QUOTE] No it's not, and the guy I cited for that claim (Stephane Audoin-Rouzeau) is in fact a French historian and professor at the University of Picardie who also works with the School for Advanced Studies in the Social Sciences in Paris. He says the same thing: French morale did not significantly decline until after the Battle of Verdun, which was due to the massive number of casualties that were taken and also the harsh conditions of the winter; what mutinies and desertions that did occur during this time (and yes, some did) were insignificant compared to those which cropped up in 1917. The 1917 mutinies were due to a combination of factors: high casualties previously at Verdun, the conditions that troops suffered through during the winter of 1916-1917, and their failure against the Germans in the Nivelle Offensive in April 1917. The majority of French soldiers and civilians alike saw Verdun as an important battle (which it was), not only strategically but symbolically. Its historical ties to the country are literally ancient, dating back to the Gauls. They had no intention of giving up by this point, and the Germans understood this. Even as late as the [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Vaux]assault on Fort Vaux[/url] in the summer, after all the casualties and some morale problems, French troops were nevertheless fanatical in their defense. [quote]If the attacks on our wings succeed, our two regiments are prisoners, hemmed in, but the veterans (fathers of families) declare that we shall not be taken alive, that we will all fight till we die. It is sublime. "Keep up your courage, coolness, and morale, boys, and we will drive them back in good time." It is magnificent to see that our last recourse is a matter of sheer will; despite this monstrous machinery of modern war, a little moral effort, a will twenty years old that refuses to weaken, suffices to frustrate the offensive![/quote] [url]http://www.firstworldwar.com/diaries/verdun_vaux.htm[/url] Von Falkenhayn's entire strategy revolved around fighting a war of attrition with them until they were in his words "bled to death", because he knew how unlikely it was that they would surrender. The French troops at Verdun were filled with a sense of obligation at the battle. They understood its significance, and they had the mindset overall of "protect the country". And they were also motivated to keep fighting on by Petain, who unlike Joffre and Nivelle actually had a well-established reputation for caring about the lives and well-being of French troops, and who implemented the Noria Exchange System that rotated troops in and out of action to provide them with periods of rest from the fighting so they wouldn't be nearly as exhausted. This is just how it was. The battle is worthy of commemoration, the soldiers themselves deserve to be remembered for the part they played in shaping world history, and the majority of people agree with this sentiment (or at least the ones that matter do), so that's that.
[QUOTE=bdd458;50454277] I'm sure if any veterans were still alive today they's appreciate kids trampling over their comrades graves /s [/QUOTE] Horrible argument. In no way, shape, or form do you speak at all on behalf of any veterans.
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