[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;28898571]So, you're saying that it's excusable they used a gas specifically designed to kill people, rather then a gas designed to incapacitate.[/QUOTE]
No. Refer back to my post. I'm saying it was bad on their part to use gas in that certain kind of situation. The gas wasn't engineered to kill people, just to knock them out.
[QUOTE=Craig Willmore;28894466][url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_hostage_crisis]Russia is the last place I'd imagine to attempt to bring about a cease-fire[/url][/QUOTE]
Russian security forces always screw up hostage situations by using excessive force. In the 2002 Moscow Theater crisis they gassed about 120 civilians while the terrorist shot like 4.
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;28898571]So, you're saying that it's excusable they used a gas specifically designed to kill people, rather then a gas designed to incapacitate.[/QUOTE]The chemicals suspected of being used (various more potent forms of fentanyl, which itself is hundreds of times more potent than morphine, and the derivatives being hundreds of times more potent than fentanyl) are designed to incapacitate, the dose has to be just right else the patient dies. The LD50 is approximately 2 milligrams for an average human.
Any moron could see that it was a bad idea to fill a whole building with that stuff.
[QUOTE=HighdefGE;28898631]No. Refer back to my post. I'm saying it was bad on their part to use gas in that certain kind of situation. The gas wasn't engineered to kill people, just to knock them out.[/QUOTE]
But it's obvious they didn't know the true effects of the gas at the time since it obviously hadn't been tested properly. It just seems more like laziness and down right incompetence, you just don't pump experimental gases into a building full of civilians.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;28898772]But it's obvious they didn't know the true effects of the gas at the time since it obviously hadn't been tested properly. It just seems more like laziness and down right incompetence, you just don't pump experimental gases into a building full of civilians.[/QUOTE]
I don't know whether the gas was experimental or not, but they shouldn't have resorted to that without warning the civilians inside.
[QUOTE=HighdefGE;28899063]I don't know whether the gas was experimental or not, but they shouldn't have resorted to that without warning the civilians inside.[/QUOTE]
So that they could. . .?
"We are pumping a deadly gas into the building. Please prepare to die."
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;28899085]So that they could. . .?[/QUOTE]
lie down in a proper position so they wouldn't drown in their own vomit.
[QUOTE=Craig Willmore;28894466][url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_hostage_crisis]Russia is the last place I'd imagine to attempt to bring about a cease-fire[/url][/QUOTE]
I dont really understand what the incompetence of Russian special forces has anything to do with Russian demands for peace talk in Libya.
[editline]31st March 2011[/editline]
In fact I fail to see the connection entirely.
[QUOTE=HighdefGE;28899127]lie down in a proper position so they wouldn't drown in their own vomit.[/QUOTE][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apnea[/url]
Tell me exactly how they're supposed to prepare themselves for opioid-induced inability to breathe. And no, vomit has nothing to do with it.
[QUOTE=Melnek;28899141]I dont really understand what the incompetence of Russian special forces has anything to do with Russian demands for peace talk in Libya.[/QUOTE]
It's pretty hypocritical for a nation that pretty much annihilated a region for disobedience (Chechnya) to act like they have the moral high ground for humanitarian intervention.
[editline]30th March 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Sgt Doom;28899176][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apnea[/url][/QUOTE]
Not to mention how, you know, the Chechnyan rebels would also hear the instructions, thus making the entire endeavor pointless.
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;28899178]It's pretty hypocritical for a nation that pretty much annihilated a region for disobedience (Chechnya) to act like they have the moral high ground for humanitarian intervention[/QUOTE]
It still has very reasonable concerns that Libya will become Iraq/Afghanistan 2.0
[QUOTE=Sgt Doom;28899176][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apnea[/url]
Tell me exactly how they're supposed to prepare themselves for opioid-induced inability to breathe. And no, vomit has nothing to do with it.[/QUOTE]
-snipitty snip-
Since we all know how the last NATO occupation of Middle Eastern countries went.
[QUOTE=HighdefGE;28899295]They didn't use apnea.[/QUOTE]What the hell are you talking about? Apnea is not a drug, it's the medical term for not being able to breathe. The drug they used is a highly potent synthetic opioid, most likely carfentanil or 3-methylfentanyl.
[editline]31st March 2011[/editline]
To put it another way, carfentanil is never used on humans, but large creatures like moose.
[QUOTE=Sgt Doom;28899329]What the hell are you talking about? Apnea is not a drug, it's the medical term for not being able to breathe. The drug they used is a highly potent synthetic opioid, most likely carfentanyl or 3-methylfentanyl.[/QUOTE]
My bad, that was dumb. I skimmed that article. They used either fentanyl or naloxone.
But anyways I don't see the reason to continue arguing about it here as this thread is related to Libya. I'll be happy to continue over PM's though.
[QUOTE=HighdefGE;28899459]My bad, that was dumb. I skimmed that article. They used either fentanyl or naloxone.[/QUOTE]Naloxone is a drug used as an antidote to opioids. Fentanyl is nowhere near as potent as the ones i've mentioned - it wouldn't have been effective in the circumstances - and has been ruled out as a possibility. Russian authorities said it was a derivative of fentanyl.
But yes, a derailment appears to have occurred.
I don't understand why they didn't use CS gas or some shit, but I assume the militants had protective rags of some sort.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;28897978]They blew the fucking wall of the gym in and then decided to get into a fire fight with the Chechens while civilians filtered through the crossfire. Then in the Moscow incident they used poisonous gas in a building full of civilians.[/QUOTE]
Read the wiki article dumb ass.
The Beslan incident was a terrible fuck up caused by some chaotic conditions and unforeseen events.
You act like they intentionally killed hundreds of their own people.
[editline]31st March 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Melnek;28899277]It still has very reasonable concerns that Libya will become Iraq/Afghanistan 2.0[/QUOTE]
What the fuck
Okay please enlighten me as to how this will be "Iraq/Afghanistan 2.0"
The fact you are saying Iraq and Afghanistan were even remotely similar situations leaves me doubting you have any idea what you are on about
[QUOTE=JaegerMonster;28901602]
What the fuck
Okay please enlighten me as to how this will be "Iraq/Afghanistan 2.0"
The fact you are saying Iraq and Afghanistan were even remotely similar situations leaves me doubting you have any idea what you are on about[/QUOTE]
NATO, primarily the US, invades country in an attempt to install a democratic regime.
Fails miserably.
Stays there to this day.
[QUOTE=Melnek;28908820]NATO, primarily the US, invades country in an attempt to install a democratic regime.
Fails miserably.
Stays there to this day.[/QUOTE]The rebels will be doing the regime change, we're just there to wipe out Gaddafi's tanks, aircraft and artillery.
[editline]31st March 2011[/editline]
This is a completely different situation from either Iraq, Afghanistan or Vietnam. It should be blatantly obvious how.
[QUOTE=cheezey;28898734]Russian security forces always screw up hostage situations by using excessive force. In the 2002 Moscow Theater crisis they gassed about 120 civilians while the terrorist shot like 4.[/QUOTE]
That reminds me...
[img]http://www.funnymotivationalposters.info/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Spetsnaz.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=Craig Willmore;28894466][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_hostage_crisis"]Russia is the last place I'd imagine to attempt to bring about a cease-fire[/URL][/QUOTE]
Don't remind me of that shit.
Obvious false flag black op is obvious. The Putin administration probably had it planned to launch Putin's power into dictator tier in a way not too different from Hitler's rise to dictatorship.
[QUOTE=JaegerMonster;28901602]Read the wiki article dumb ass.
The Beslan incident was a terrible fuck up caused by some chaotic conditions and unforeseen events.
You act like they intentionally killed hundreds of their own people.
[/QUOTE]
they used tanks and incindiary rockets on a school
"Russia calls for ceasefire in Libya, says it is interfering with their sales of arms to Gaddafi's regime as well as disrupting planning for their next invasion of an Eastern European nation."
Russia calls for ceasefire?
April Fools
I don't get why you people decide against a ceasefire just cause the country calling it has questionable military engagements of their own.
Who the fuck are you going to accept a ceasefire from? America?
:munch:
Epic shitstorm is epic.
:munch:
[QUOTE=s0m3_guy;28927100]I don't get why you people decide against a ceasefire just cause the country calling it has questionable military engagements of their own.
Who the fuck are you going to accept a ceasefire from? America?[/QUOTE]
Why should there even be a ceasefire? Qaddafi's regime is an illegitimate one, and I don't think Qaddafi's personality makes the option of him getting off his thrown peacefully, possible. Ceasefire will just allow Qaddafi to re-arm, and get prepared. Ceasefire also might cause the waves of rebellion among the Libyan people fade away, and there just won't be any popular basis for the revolution.
[QUOTE=Eightfold Path;28927249]Why should there even be a ceasefire? Qaddafi's regime is an illegitimate one, and I don't think Qaddafi's personality makes the option of him getting off his thrown peacefully, possible. Ceasefire will just allow Qaddafi to re-arm, and get prepared. Ceasefire also might [B]cause the waves of rebellion among the Libyan people fade away[/B], and there just won't be any popular basis for the revolution.[/QUOTE]
If they really had the intention of a revolution why would the effort fade away? If the rebels have no clear cut decisions or anyone representing them to the rest of the world how do we know what their intentions are when they overthrow Qaddafi?
Because of all the airstrikes and bombings on Qaddafi, his military, his government, many of the people supporting him would defect to the rebels side because they want to live. It's like playing chicken with NATO.
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