• Riot police in Kyiv have been authorized to use firearms
    169 replies, posted
Another point I'd like to make: Protestors beating single cops has a demonstrative purpose. Cops beating single persons or groups of people is blatant assault that has no reason to happen.
[QUOTE=U.S.S.R;43610461]Okay, so let's defend every protester who singles out and violently beats officers once they aren't even with their group and therefor a "threat to their rights" anymore. Not getting what you want out of a protest doesn't really excuse going violent, and as it was posted before, the country isn't homogeneous in who or what they support. Yeah, the government is fucked up with messing with internet communications and granting itself immunity and whatnot, but I'm not gonna use that as an excuse for cheering on singling out and beating people who don't really have a choice in giving up or switching over to the "right" side. Because that's what it means to "fight for their rights". And you know, maybe the police chose the wrong side because this was their job way before all of this started and they would be economically fucked if they left and there's no guarantee that the protests would succeed anyway and so they aren't really left with a choice in the matter. There are no right or wrong sides, anyway. There's only the ones we like and the ones we don't like.[/QUOTE] nah i'm fairly sure the side that's oppressing their own country & people is the wrong side
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43612114]freedom is pretty much the only thing that is worth someones life. and when the job they're doing is oppressing the people of their country and helping to prop up a corrupt and basically dictatorial regime 'just doing their jobs' isn't much of a justification[/QUOTE] Not really. Freedom is just another social condition that isn't inherently shitty or good. It just works nicely with human psychology and sociology, and that's why people support it. It isn't worth killing or dying over (in my subjective opinion, the value of life is that way too). Defending yourself against outright fucking genocide is one thing, beating people to a pulp because your government responded to your protests nastily is another. Protesters beating up singe cops has no demonstrative purposes besides giving the police a valid reason to use a nastier amount of force against them. Same going for cops beating up single protesters. Unless you want to say it is to "instill fear into so and so" in which case, yeah, cops beating protesters does have a purpose, too. Cops beating groups of people is a method of suppressing and removing them as an enemy body. Same the other way around. Oppression isn't inherently wrong, freedom isn't inherently right. It all amounts to what people want or need, and their wants and needs are subjective. I care more about the well being of individuals among both crowds rather than their collective ideologies or pleas or whatever. Because one side is oppressive and one side is for freedom or whatever doesn't mean either side is excused for singling out people and beating their faces in when their lives or jobs or whatever don't depend on it (no one is gonna fire a cop for not beating people once they've been removed from the protesting group, so they don't got a reason either).
[QUOTE=barttool;43612033]Gorbachev is always credited as a good leader, and I agree he is a man who had good intentions when he was head of the USSR, but his indecision and lack of character as a leader lead to a disastrous collapse of the government. A man with more determination and a strong hand could have simply transitioned the soviet union into a more liberal and open economy, kind of like China is doing (and democratic too).[/QUOTE] Didn't Gorbachev want to balkanize the Soviet Union?
[QUOTE=U.S.S.R;43612245]Not really. Freedom is just another social condition that isn't inherently shitty or good. It just works nicely with human psychology and sociology, and that's why people support it. It isn't worth killing or dying over (in my subjective opinion, the value of life is that way too). Defending yourself against outright fucking genocide is one thing, beating people to a pulp because your government responded to your protests nastily is another. Protesters beating up singe cops has no demonstrative purposes besides giving the police a valid reason to use a nastier amount of force against them. Same going for cops beating up single protesters. Unless you want to say it is to "instill fear into so and so" in which case, yeah, cops beating protesters does have a purpose, too. Cops beating groups of people is a method of suppressing and removing them as an enemy body. Same the other way around. Oppression isn't inherently wrong, freedom isn't inherently right. It all amounts to what people want or need, and their wants and needs are subjective. I care more about the well being of individuals among both crowds rather than their collective ideologies or pleas or whatever.[/QUOTE] you should really give the philosophy degree a rest dude youre going to give it friction burns at this rate
[QUOTE=U.S.S.R;43612245]Not really. Freedom is just another social condition that isn't inherently shitty or good. It just works nicely with human psychology and sociology, and that's why people support it. It isn't worth killing or dying over (in my subjective opinion, the value of life is that way too). Defending yourself against outright fucking genocide is one thing, beating people to a pulp because your government responded to your protests nastily is another. Protesters beating up singe cops has no demonstrative purposes besides giving the police a valid reason to use a nastier amount of force against them. Same going for cops beating up single protesters. Unless you want to say it is to "instill fear into so and so" in which case, yeah, cops beating protesters does have a purpose, too. Cops beating groups of people is a method of suppressing and removing them as an enemy body. Same the other way around. Oppression isn't inherently wrong, freedom isn't inherently right. It all amounts to what people want or need, and their wants and needs are subjective. I care more about the well being of individuals among both crowds rather than their collective ideologies or pleas or whatever.[/QUOTE] freedom is the natural state of all living things. oppression IS inherently wrong freedom IS inherently right. you don't care about the well being of anyone except the state when you spout this kind of nonsense.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43612296]freedom is the natural state of all living things. oppression IS inherently wrong freedom IS inherently right.[/QUOTE] i like freedom but this is a really shitty and circular argument
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43612352]i like freedom but this is a really shitty and circular argument[/QUOTE] it's not an argument. freedom good, oppression bad. no argument
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43612296]freedom is the natural state of all living things. oppression IS inherently wrong freedom IS inherently right. you don't care about the well being of anyone except the state when you spout this kind of nonsense.[/QUOTE] So you believe in that "natural law", bullshit? Then I guess oppression is natural since oppression is a human invention, and humans and their different states of being are natural. I guess freedom existing as a natural state means we are free to act like rabid animals since all laws and restrictions upon behaviour except for instinct are unnatural and therefore inherently wrong. And since freedom is the natural state of ALL living things, the burdens and freedoms of animals are the same as ours. Or maybe I should just, y'know, say that you're making a naturalistic fallacy by stating that? Freedom is a concept entirely invented by humans, and, as is the same for all philanthropic, ideological, and sociological concepts, it doesn't have any metaphysical or natural moral value. To say otherwise is inherently wrong. Freedom and oppression an be summed up as the lack of certain restrictions and the presence of certain restrictions. Not, "natural and good and delightful for all men", and "evil and dark and unnatural and alien".
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43612367]it's not an argument. freedom good, oppression bad. no argument[/QUOTE] why you can't just say "this is good, end of story" you've even potentially created a false dichotomy. i could go to the logical extremes of what "freedom" constituted and what it meant and i'd probably be able to find something that would make you feel uncomfortable
i don't really see how "there's nothing inherently good about X humans just think there is" could ever be a compelling argument
[QUOTE=Cone;43612407]i don't really see how "there's nothing inherently good about X humans just think there is" could ever be a compelling argument[/QUOTE] It is a defensive argument upon which another can be built to "tag back". He is saying that something is inherently this way, and therefore I am wrong, I'm disproving that using what I think is an infallible bit of logic. He can't really devalue my other arguments that way. We are either stuck at "THEN, we disagree", or one of us provides empirical evidence supporting our arguments (in this case, I don't think it's possible), or I get bandwagonned and called a Nazi loon and I lose because reasons and that's the end of it.
i'm not gonna get into all this logical fallacy crap sorry guys. i think freedom is worth fighting for, i think oppression should be fought against, you can take that to ridiculous logical extremes if you want but that's on you not me.
I do use it way too much, though, but it works when I'm going against an idea that is really, really entrenched in the minds of people here, and at least make it impossible to call me "wrong" outside of their own opinions.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43612462]i'm not gonna get into all this logical fallacy crap sorry guys. i think freedom is worth fighting for, i think oppression should be fought against, you can take that to ridiculous logical extremes if you want but that's on you not me.[/QUOTE] well i think freedom is worth fighting for as well, but at the very least you should be able to articulate and understand why you think its worth fighting for you gotta work out the whole thing, otherwise you won't have a full understanding of what you are fighting for and what you are fighting against
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43612462]i'm not gonna get into all this logical fallacy crap sorry guys. i think freedom is worth fighting for, i think oppression should be fought against, you can take that to ridiculous logical extremes if you want but that's on you not me.[/QUOTE] I'm fine with them marching up to the shitty politicians who want to fuck them all over and "fighting for their freedom" all over their faces, since it is all the politicians' faults and there's no reason why they can't back down. I'm just saying that all the little grunts they got attached to their marionettes aren't really evil for doing what they need to do to make their living in their (currently) fucked up country, and no side needs to be singling out and beating people to bloodied pulps to fight for or against the government. Maybe if everyone started shooting each other, and everyone was dangerous even when separated from their group, it'd be different, but as of now it is all sticks and firecrackers and numbers make the fight. Rubber bullet guns aren't exactly that dangerous against a massive group piling on one person, either.
[QUOTE=U.S.S.R;43612517]I'm fine with them marching up to the shitty politicians who want to fuck them all over and "fighting for their freedom" all over their faces, since it is all the politicians' faults and there's no reason why they can't back down. I'm just saying that all the little grunts they got attached to their marionettes aren't really evil for doing what they need to do to make their living in their (currently) fucked up country, and no side needs to be singling out and beating people to bloodied pulps to fight for or against the government. Maybe if everyone started shooting each other, and everyone was dangerous even when separated from their group, it'd be different, but as of now it is all sticks and firecrackers and numbers make the fight. Rubber bullet guns aren't exactly that dangerous against a massive group piling on one person, either.[/QUOTE] i don't really believe that people 'just doing their job' (especially in a situation like this) are innocent. i feel that's a very poor justification. and uh, rubber bullets are incredibly dangerous
[QUOTE=U.S.S.R;43612517]I'm fine with them marching up to the shitty politicians who want to fuck them all over and "fighting for their freedom" all over their faces, since it is all the politicians' faults and there's no reason why they can't back down. I'm just saying that all the little grunts they got attached to their marionettes aren't really evil for doing what they need to do to make their living in their (currently) fucked up country, and no side needs to be singling out and beating people to bloodied pulps to fight for or against the government. Maybe if everyone started shooting each other, and everyone was dangerous even when separated from their group, it'd be different, but as of now it is all sticks and firecrackers and numbers make the fight. Rubber bullet guns aren't exactly that dangerous against a massive group piling on one person, either.[/QUOTE]Rubber bullets can be very deadly.
This is pretty weird to see, I just wrote my LA 30-1 Part B (multiple choice) today and one of the questions involved a story centered around Kyiv.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43612501]well i think freedom is worth fighting for as well, but at the very least you should be able to articulate and understand why you think its worth fighting for you gotta work out the whole thing, otherwise you won't have a full understanding of what you are fighting for and what you are fighting against[/QUOTE] well i think people deserve to be free, that's about it. i believe in self determination and the power of the individual, neither of which are compatible with tyranny
I get that they're deadly, but I mean that a single officer with a rubber bullet gun won't be able to do much damage against a large group of angry protesters. If he gets ganged up on, he is still fucked if they don't decide to be merciful. As in, it still isn't much of an excuse to start pulling people out of their groups and beating them down.
[QUOTE=U.S.S.R;43610148]As opposed to bashing officers (who were supposedly not doing shit to any of them) faces in? Sure, why not. The protesters aren't exactly a majority across the nation, and refusing to join the EU isn't exactly "stripping them of their rights". They might have a shitty situation on their hands, but they aren't really living in 1984-land here.[/QUOTE] [url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1351097[/url]
[QUOTE=Araknid;43612790][url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1351097[/url][/QUOTE] Still isn't an excuse in my book. Most of the laws in that list are for stopping the protests and riots. There are a few big and nasty ones in there, but it doesn't give anyone an excuse to beat a tiny group of officers who aren't even fighting against the protesters anymore.
[QUOTE=U.S.S.R;43612861]Still isn't an excuse in my book. Most of the laws in that list are for stopping the protests and riots. There are a few big and nasty ones in there, but it doesn't give anyone an excuse to beat a tiny group of officers who aren't even fighting against the protesters anymore.[/QUOTE] You say that like laws intended to stop protests are acceptable...
Well shit, this is why we had an increase of people from Ukraine on /k/ asking about remote detonators and Luty SMGs.
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;43612918]Well shit, this is why we had an increase of people from Ukraine on /k/ asking about remote detonators and Luty SMGs.[/QUOTE] So should the /k/ommandos in Europe arm up to go liberate Ukraine? That would honestly be both hilarious and horrifying.
[QUOTE=Griffster26;43612929]So should the /k/ommandos in Europe arm up to go liberate Ukraine? That would honestly be both hilarious and horrifying.[/QUOTE] I hope to god not. The current situation is bad, but if people are given the wrong idea, this stuff can breed into a war. /K/ommandos have been handing out documents from the Militia Movement and SHTF Groups, but they are trying to avoid giving out details on how to make IEDs.
[QUOTE=U.S.S.R;43612861]Still isn't an excuse in my book. Most of the laws in that list are for stopping the protests and riots.[/QUOTE] More like stopping people from having their rights. I can't believe you're actually defending these shit
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;43612946] /K/ommandos have been handing out documents from the Militia Movement and SHTF Groups, but they are trying to avoid giving out details on how to make IEDs.[/QUOTE] I'm seriously fucking done right now.
If a Hitler clone were to raise to power, dare we fight back? I doubt it that would be harming the police! :downs:
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