Riot police in Kyiv have been authorized to use firearms
169 replies, posted
The police can make the choice to not stop the protesters, just as the protesters can make the choice of going home because they are going to be hurting innocents.
Just like military forces who have joined the people in protest against the government, the police can do the same.
[QUOTE=Map in a box;43613049]If a Hitler clone were to raise to power, dare we fight back? I doubt it that would be harming the police! :downs:[/QUOTE]
Here we go again, comparing the entire Nazi army to a bunch of police with sticks, gas canisters, and stun bombs.
And comparing the Holocaust and invasion of Europe to protests getting suppressed on a domestic level.
[QUOTE=U.S.S.R;43613121]Here we go again, comparing the entire Nazi army to a bunch of police with sticks, gas canisters, and stun bombs.
And comparing the Holocaust and invasion of Europe to protests getting suppressed on a domestic level.[/QUOTE]
USSR are you actually that crazy lady from a while back?
[QUOTE=U.S.S.R;43612469]I do use it way too much, though, but it works when I'm going against an idea that is really, really entrenched in the minds of people here, and at least make it impossible to call me "wrong" outside of their own opinions.[/QUOTE]
i like moral relativism as much as the next guy but i think you're using it as a philosophical crutch to try and justify horrible things in place of having more socially self-consistent opinions
[editline]21st January[/editline]
we have a society that values freedom and quality of life and this is neither of these things, deal with it
[QUOTE=Griffster26;43613187]USSR are you actually that crazy lady from a while back?[/QUOTE]
He is nothing more than a stain and a bit of dried meat entrenched in the fabric of his sheets, now~
[editline]21st January 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Cone;43613188]i like moral relativism as much as the next guy but i think you're using it as a philosophical crutch to try and justify horrible things in place of having more socially self-consistent opinions
[editline]21st January[/editline]
we have a society that values freedom and quality of life and this is neither of these things, deal with it[/QUOTE]
What's wrong with having opinions that go against society's standards? I'm in the same boat as anyone else who goes against, say, what they think are the more oppressive or nasty ideals of society, just not on the same end of that boat. Or maybe I'm in both ends of the boat at once.
I could make an argument (not here though, or on issues like this, it wouldn't stand), that freedom and quality of life for some is oppression for others.
[QUOTE=U.S.S.R;43611835]They sort of had no choice. They did it or the people above them killed them and did it for them.
You could blame them for not resisting all at once or whatever, but societies don't exactly work like that and it is a lot harder to break away from a broken or shitty government/societal system than you think.
You can blame the leadership and politicians all you want, or the individuals who take pleasure in that kind of shit, I wouldn't care if they got fucked up, but the grunts don't exactly deserve to bear all of the weight.
And what the police are doing is absolutely nothing compared to the Holocaust, thinking that my post is worthy of a Godwin in itself is a fuckton more idiotic than my comment could ever be.[/QUOTE]
[thumb]http://puu.sh/6sq49.jpg[/thumb]
And that's my opinion on the matter.
[QUOTE=soccerskyman;43613369][thumb]http://puu.sh/6sq49.jpg[/thumb]
And that's my opinion on the matter.[/QUOTE]
And to support your opinion, I present this:
[url]http://www.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v1_cha_chapter43_rule154[/url]
[QUOTE=soccerskyman;43613369][thumb]http://puu.sh/6sq49.jpg[/thumb]
And that's my opinion on the matter.[/QUOTE]
Half of those are individuals doing things that weren't ordered by anyone but rather on their own accord. A quarter of those are people doing what they do to survive or keep their job. And the other quarter of those were justified given the circumstances.
International humanitarian law isn't an absolute standard, and it isn't fair to soldiers and police who have to follow orders or face death. It's placing undue responsibility on individuals that are under just as much oppression and are just as fearful as those who they are suppressing. What are you going to follow? International laws made and only half-way enforced by people several thousand miles away from you, who have no idea of your circumstances and have no way of punishing you for breaking their laws, or the very much enforced rules stating "Obey or die/lose everything" by your own military and superiors?
Here, have this analogy. A guy has a gun pointed at your skull. He is standing behind you. You have a gun, and there is another, unarmed person in front of you. He tells you to kill the unarmed person or else he'll kill you.
There is no "turn around and shoot the guy", or "resist and shoot no one". You do it or you're fucked. Even if you do it, you're gonna have a bunch of idiots wanting to get revenge on you as well as the guy who made you do it.
That's the same position these cops are in. That's the same position the non-sociopathic part of the Nazi Army was in. Replace the guy with the gun with the chain of command and the way thought works in groups like this where a hierarchy is established.
I have even further proof against the idea of these people having much of a conscious choice without some large, solid uprising happening within their own ranks: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment[/url]
There's a difference between fighting on equal grounds as both the police and protesting groups are doing now, and singling out and beating individuals who aren't doing shit.
That's my opinion on the matter.
Can I/we Get some screenshots of the Ukraine posters on /k/ mentioned last page? I wish to see it for myself.
But i want to stay as far away from [I]there[/I] as possible. Would anyone mind?
[QUOTE=U.S.S.R;43613544]Half of those are individuals doing things that weren't ordered by anyone but rather on their own accord. A quarter of those are people doing what they do to survive or keep their job. And the other quarter of those were justified given the circumstances.
International humanitarian law isn't an absolute standard, and it isn't fair to soldiers and police who have to follow orders or face death. It's placing undue responsibility on individuals that are under just as much oppression and are just as fearful as those who they are suppressing.
There's a difference between fighting on equal grounds as both the police and protesting groups are doing now, and singling out and beating individuals who aren't doing shit.
That's my opinion on the matter.[/QUOTE]
Lets look at the first picture, for example.
[video=youtube;6AdDLhPwpp4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AdDLhPwpp4[/video]
Justified and/or necessary. Yep.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8Uj1cV97XQ[/media]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dI6hzeOfpBI[/media]
I was pointing more towards the one with the dog and the TSA guy, anyway.
[QUOTE=U.S.S.R;43613544]Here, have this analogy. A guy has a gun pointed at your skull. He is standing behind you. You have a gun, and there is another, unarmed person in front of you. He tells you to kill the unarmed person or else he'll kill you.
There is no "turn around and shoot the guy", or "resist and shoot no one". You do it or you're fucked. Even if you do it, you're gonna have a bunch of idiots wanting to get revenge on you as well as the guy who made you do it.[/QUOTE]
the thing with this analogy is that you're justifying doing awful things to save your own skin. like, i get that sometimes people do this but it's not justifiable at all
[editline]21st January 2014[/editline]
'It's placing undue responsibility on individuals that are under just as much oppression and are just as fearful as those who they are suppressing.'
this seems like a real fucked thing to say
[editline]21st January 2014[/editline]
especially when you're saying that it's the protestors who shouldn't be using force etc.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43613734]the thing with this analogy is that you're justifying doing awful things to save your own skin. like, i get that sometimes people do this but it's not justifiable at all
[editline]21st January 2014[/editline]
'It's placing undue responsibility on individuals that are under just as much oppression and are just as fearful as those who they are suppressing.'
this seems like a real fucked thing to say[/QUOTE]
It isn't really fucked given the context.
The police are suppressing the protesters, the chain of command, group psychology, and economic circumstances of the police are suppressing the police.
If you're stuck between a rock and a hard place, you can't move up down forwards or backwards, you can only destroy one side or the other of the hold you're in.
Sometimes it is easier to topple the rock, sometimes it is easier to break through the hard place.
[editline]21st January 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43613734]especially when you're saying that it's the protestors who shouldn't be using force etc.[/QUOTE]
At this point I'm fine with saying that they can go at each other if it is the only option left, I started off too wide and ambitious with my arguments. What I'm focusing on now is police and protesters targeting individuals who aren't threats to them anymore and beating them savagely.
[QUOTE=U.S.S.R;43613798]It isn't really fucked given the context.
The police are suppressing the protesters, the chain of command, group psychology, and economic circumstances of the police are suppressing the police.
If you're stuck between a rock and a hard place, you can't move up down forwards or backwards, you can only destroy one side or the other of the hold you're in.
Sometimes it is easier to topple the rock, sometimes it is easier to break through the hard place.[/QUOTE]
i don't doubt it's easier or whatever, but again, that is not a justification
[editline]21st January 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=U.S.S.R;43613798]At this point I'm fine with saying that they can go at each other if it is the only option left, I started off too wide and ambitious with my arguments. What I'm focusing on now is police and protesters targeting individuals who aren't threats to them anymore and beating them savagely.[/QUOTE]
i can agree with that, i'm never a huge fan of people getting the shit beaten out of them
Maybe late, but there's a stream up now.
[url]http://www.ustream.tv/channel/euromajdan/pop-out[/url]
people are building barricades out of burnt cars.
And all will burn beneath the banners of oppresion.
[QUOTE=Radley;43615425]And all will burn beneath the banners of oppresion.[/QUOTE]
Oh save it, Jesus Christ.
I'm usually not the one to take part in forum arguements, but I'd just like to point out that the protests were peaceful up until the police violently tried to break up them at 4 AM on November 30th.
[url]http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/reports-police-forcefully-break-up-protest-site-on-maidan-nezalezhnosti-this-morning-332674.html[/url]
There were reports of police beating women, reporters and medics, among other people who were soundly asleep in the tents.
Fun fact: KGB used to break into peoples' homes around this time of day and kidnap them in Soviet times, because [for a person with a healthy circadian rhythm] the deepest phase of sleep kicks in around this time and they are not able to adequately resist.
Thats it, shoot people you disagree with.
fucking cowards.
Looks like things are starting to heat up a bit in the stream above. Considerably more people gathered now and their barricades have grown much larger.
[QUOTE=Splash Attack;43608695][video=youtube;zBWqawm81Fo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBWqawm81Fo[/video][/QUOTE]
It pisses me off that people are like this.
Just getting into gang mentality over some kind of common belief and are willing to beat up innocent bystanders because someone yells 'this guy!'. It's not over territory, it's not over food or survival. It's over what someone thinks.
You could be beating up or murdering the only person who's able to save the nation, or someone who goes on to invent a cure for cancer, or a great artist.
It's fucking horrible. And yeah I know the guy was in the danger-zone, but still. People in a gang mentality could just as easily be kicking people's doors down and beating them for being the wrong ethnicity.
And don't get me wrong. I'm sure it's happening on both sides. Neither is more justified in using this kind of evil.
Until this core fault of the human condition is addressed, we're doomed to nothing resembling peace.
Riot police hit with molotovs
[url]http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=911_1390295593[/url]
[url]http://mvs.gov.ua/mvs/control/main/uk/publish/article/962249[/url]
[QUOTE=Scot;43617683]Riot police hit with molotovs
[url]http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=911_1390295593[/url]
[url]http://mvs.gov.ua/mvs/control/main/uk/publish/article/962249[/url][/QUOTE]
I hate that I rated this winner, because I'm sure half those cops don't even agree with the new laws themselves, but limiting freedom is unacceptable.
[QUOTE=Scot;43617683]Riot police hit with molotovs
[url]http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=911_1390295593[/url]
[url]http://mvs.gov.ua/mvs/control/main/uk/publish/article/962249[/url][/QUOTE]
After seeing these videos I don't blame the police for being armed. They're up against thugs with a flagrant disregard for other human beings.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;43618257]After seeing these videos I don't blame the police for being armed. They're up against thugs with a flagrant disregard for other human beings.[/QUOTE]
these people are trapped, they just want to move but if the move even a meter into police territory they will be brutally beaten
this isnt the fault of the revolutionaries, its the fault of the government who orders the thugs
[QUOTE=Turing;43618299]these people are trapped, they just want to move but if the move even a meter into police territory they will be brutally beaten
this isnt the fault of the revolutionaries, its the fault of the government who orders the thugs[/QUOTE]
Looks like the government has trapped in the police and protesters. I'm sure both party's are hating this. I hope for the sake of the country and people that the government gets changed to a new leadership.
This is why the police have been authorised to use firearms.
NSFW [url]http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=911_1390295593[/url] NSFW
I know that the authorization of firearms may sound like a drastic measure but you can see in the video (if you watch it) that the officers are being pelted with petrol bombs.
[QUOTE=The-Happy-Emo;43621735]This is why the police have been authorised to use firearms.
NSFW [url]http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=911_1390295593[/url] NSFW
I know that the authorization of firearms may sound like a drastic measure but you can see in the video (if you watch it) that the officers are being pelted with petrol bombs.[/QUOTE]
Okay, to be honest now I'm starting to agree with those that said to shoot at the protesters.
All the cops are doing is blocking the passage with shields, and you're fucking throwing molotovs at them?? Rubber bullets should be sent flying as a reply
Of course some cops are shitty people, but most of them are probably just doing their job (and not attacking protesters).
I know they probably don't want to risk it, but honestly I think the police (at least those with integrity) should simply lay down their work, and stop going to work. Either the state will have to whip out the military, which [I]will[/I] have terrible political consequences (Russia supported or not), or they'll have to change up their shit.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;43621893]Of course some cops are shitty people, but most of them are probably just doing their job (and not attacking protesters).
I know they probably don't want to risk it, but honestly I think the police (at least those with integrity) should simply lay down their work, and stop going to work. Either the state will have to whip out the military, which [I]will[/I] have terrible political consequences (Russia supported or not), or they'll have to change up their shit.[/QUOTE]
Considering the economical state of Ukraine, you just can't afford to leave your job like that. The cops will keep obeying the corrupt government even if most of them probably hate their guys as well
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.