• Co-worker: Omar Mateen homophobic, 'unhinged'
    70 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;50510815]I wouldn't be surprised if most what appears to be "moderate" Muslims actually cheer for Omar Mateen secretly.[/QUOTE] Yea and I bet most "moderate" Christians secretly cheer for WBC protesting funerals of dead soldiers.
[QUOTE=karlosfandango;50510778]Historically maybe but Muslim grooming gangs have been more prevalent lately.[/QUOTE] Now is this because there are actually more of them, or because they are getting caught more, or because the Murdoch-run-media over here likes to focus on it because hate sells? Looking at the list of incidents collected here; [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sexual_abuse_in_the_United_Kingdom#Notable_incidents[/url] We've got a pretty mixed collection of Asian communities, rich fucks and care homes. When you move on to single offenders it's largely celebrities, politicians and particularly disgusting individuals who hit big numbers. Just because you are hearing about one thing more than another does not actually mean that thing is massively out of proportion. It's just being reported on more. I do sometimes wonder what the police investigation archives contain that we can't see as the cases are still ongoing. What we do see are leaks or cases that have been investigated and reported on.
[QUOTE=Starpluck;50510813]Not any more than Christianity or Judaism. Can you name a Middle Eastern government, including the likes of Saudi Arabia or Iran that have carried out the death penalty as prescribed in their penal code for homosexuality? I am not asking for the penal code on homosexuality, I know it exists and I know it is never used. I am asking for a case in the past 20 years where an Islamic government (i.e. not ISIS/Taliban/Al-Qaeda) in the Middle East carried out the death sentence for homosexuality. They don't. It is nearly universally-always deportation.[/QUOTE] You're correct on the first point: [url]http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/04/13/why-does-gay-sex-scare-modern-muslims-it-didn-t-in-the-golden-age.html[/url] [QUOTE]This subtle early recognition grew to a point where it was open within the courts of various caliphs in the Muslim Golden Age. Abu Nuwas (756-814) was one of the greatest classical Arab poets. He flourished during the start of the Abbasid era Golden Age (750-1258), based in Baghdad. As was normal during this period, sexual roles were only imagined in terms of active and passive participants, not as gay or straight sex, and what we would today describe as homosexuality was clear and present in this society. Biographies of the bohemian Abu Nuwas recount his many sexual relationships with women and teenage boys, especially under the patronage of Caliph al-Amin (809-13), with whom Abu Nuwas shared many experiences. One of Abu Nuwas’s most famous compilations of poetry is known as Ghazal. In it, he celebrates his love for 15-year-old teenagers (khumasi), young men in military training or even those who have started growing facial hair (muaddir). In his “Love in Bloom,” Abu Nuwas describes his bond with a male lover as an “unbreakable rope.” Many other excellent classical Muslim poets wrote in homoerotic tones, including the Persian Ibn Dawud (868-909), Andalusian Ibn Quzman (1080-1160), and the Arab Sicilian Ibn Hamdis (1053-1133). Lovemaking manuals are also to be found, such as The Perfumed Garden (al-Rawd al-Atir fi Nuzhat al-Khatir) by the Tunisian Shaiykh Muhammad ibn Umar al-Nafwazi, between 1410 and 1434, and The Book of Respective Merits of Maids and Young Men (Kitab Mafaharat al-Jawari wa al-Ghilman) by the prolific al-Jahiz (777-869). Later on still, Omar Khayyam (d. 1126) set the tone for sexuality in his Quartets (Ruba’iyyat), and Sa’di of Shiraz (1184-1291) graphically discusses his love of young men. Most famous of them all, Jalal al-Din Rumi (1207-1273) passionately writes about his deep affection for the wandering mystic Shams al-Din Tabriz, leading many modern academics to conclude that he must have been deeply in love with him. But as prudish Victorian values spread from Europe to the Middle East through colonialism, and as 19th century neo-fundamentalist Wahhabism began to take hold in the Arabian peninsula, and as 20th century Islamism gained ground, spreading from Egypt around the globe, censorship, misogyny and homophobia began to spread among Muslims worldwide.[/QUOTE] But a few Wikipedia searches disprove your latter claim. For example, here is from the article on LGBT rights in Iran. Even if the death penalty itself is rarely enforced, it sets the tone of extreme persecution of gay people: [QUOTE]Some human rights activists and opponents of the Iranian regime claim between 4,000 and 6,000 gay men and lesbians have been executed in Iran for crimes related to their sexual orientation since 1979.[30] According to The Boroumand Foundation,[31] there are records of at least 107 executions with charges related to homosexuality between 1979 and 1990.[32] According to Amnesty International, at least 5 people convicted of "homosexual tendencies", three men and two women, were executed in January 1990, as a result of the Iranian government's policy of calling for the execution of those who practice homosexuality.[33] ... Sodomy Sodomy (lavat) is punishable by death. The judge can determine the type of death, but in practice it is always hanging. The proof requirements are the same as for adultery and such sentences are very rare. If one of the consenting participants was under 18, the punishment is 100 lashes for the minor. If the accused are repentant, they generally receive a reduced sentence of 99 lashes. Those convicted spend one year in prison in addition, and can be sentenced to more prison time at the judge's discretion. Few consenting participants are sentenced to death, but prior to 2012, both partners could receive the death penalty. On March 15, 2005, the daily newspaper Etemaad reported that the Tehran Criminal Court sentenced two men to death following the discovery of a video showing them engaged in sexual acts. Another two men were allegedly hanged publicly in the northern town of Gorgan for sodomy in November 2005.[43] In July 2006 two youths were hanged for "sex crimes" in north-eastern Iran, probably consensual homosexual acts.[2] On November 16, 2006, the State-run news agency reported the public execution of man convicted of sodomy in the western city of Kermanshah.[44][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Starpluck;50510813]Not any more than Christianity or Judaism. Can you name a Middle Eastern government, including the likes of Saudi Arabia or Iran that have carried out the death penalty as prescribed in their penal code for homosexuality? I am not asking for the penal code on homosexuality, I know it exists and I know it is never used. I am asking for a case in the past 20 years where an Islamic government (i.e. not ISIS/Taliban/Al-Qaeda) in the Middle East carried out the death sentence for homosexuality. They aren't any death sentences carried out. This also includes the alleged death sentence for apostasy or being an "atheist" in the Middle East, none of which have resulted in any death sentences in the past 20 years despite numerous convictions for these offenses.[/QUOTE] I didn't claim that the death sentence had been carried out. I merely quoted that it does exist. If the law of the land says it is punishable by death though, this sets a precedent for extreme prejudice. [QUOTE] Extreme prejudice remains, both socially and legally, in much of the Islamic world against people who engage in homosexual acts. In Afghanistan, Brunei, Iran, Mauritania, Nigeria, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, United Arab Emirates and Yemen, homosexual activity carries the death penalty [/QUOTE] [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_in_Islam"]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_in_Islam[/URL]
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;50510391]Yeah, G4S doesn't give a big dick about anything since they're just another shitty private security company. Just look up the shit that they've pulled. It goes without saying they'd hire someone like Mateen. Fuck PMCs/Security contractors, they're the scum of the earth and the fact that they're allowed to operate within civilized nations is a blemish on society[/QUOTE] Dude, security guards are very different from Blackwater lol.
[QUOTE=Starpluck;50510813]Not any more than Christianity or Judaism. Can you name a Middle Eastern government, including the likes of Saudi Arabia or Iran that have carried out the death penalty as prescribed in their penal code for homosexuality? I am not asking for the penal code on homosexuality, I know it exists and I know it is never used. I am asking for a case in the past 20 years where an Islamic government (i.e. not ISIS/Taliban/Al-Qaeda) in the Middle East carried out the death sentence for homosexuality. They aren't any death sentences carried out. This also includes the alleged death sentence for apostasy or being an "atheist" in the Middle East, none of which have resulted in any death sentences in the past 20 years despite numerous convictions for these offenses.[/QUOTE] So, since they haven't actually carried out a death sentence for homosexuality lately, all is okay and we shouldn't be giving them a hard time? What is the point you're trying to make here?
For the user above, it actually does matter if they execute people for homosexuality or not. It is a night and day difference. Should I point to the numerous active yet 'non-used' sodomy laws in Western states? They are in the books, but not used. [QUOTE=karlosfandango;50510932][URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_in_Islam[/URL][/QUOTE] You had edited your post out when I was responding so what I said below was reflective of that. I know the penal code carries a death penalty in writing. I am asking for you to point to me one single case in 20 years where someone was executed for homosexuality. Thousands upon thousands in the Middle East have been convicted for homosexuality, cross-dressing and other forms of sodomy so this shouldn't be hard. FlashMarsh addressed this and pulled out pertinent examples from Iran which carried out the death penalty for sodomy. However, it seems even in Iran there have been at most 3-4 executions in the past 10 years. This is a major shift from the hundreds of executions per year following the Islamic Revolution indicating they are phasing out of capital punishment for sodomy. [quote]Few people are sentenced to death for sodomy, but prior to 2012, both partners could receive the death penalty. Sodomy rape (lavat-be-onf) is punishable by death for the rapist. Proof requirements and procedure are the same as regular rape. Most sodomy executions are for rape, not consensual sodomy.[/quote] Now my next challenge is for FlashMarsh to find a case of capital punishment for consensual sodomy in Saudi Arabia for the past 20 years. In the Saudi Arabian alternative to the Wikipedia articles you are referencing for Iran, I haven't been able to find any death sentence in the past 20 years for consensual sodomy. Perhaps I might be wrong again, but if I am, the figure FlashMarsh will retrieve will not be more than 5 deaths in the past 20 years. And this says a lot when thousands are convicted annually for sodomy, and only 5 every 20 years are killed. It signals the abolition of capital punishment for homosexuals.
So now they aren't just outright killing gay people. While that is an important paradigm shift, I'm still hesitant to congratulate them on for "only" imprisoning people and "only" executing one once every blue moon.
[QUOTE=Starpluck;50511049]For the user above, it actually does matter if they execute people for homosexuality or not. It is a night and day difference. Should I point to the numerous active yet 'non-used' sodomy laws in Western states? They are in the books, but not used. You had edited your post out when I was responding so what I said below was reflective of that. I know the penal code carries a death penalty in writing. I am asking for you to point to me one single case in 20 years where someone was executed for homosexuality. Thousands upon thousands in the Middle East have been convicted for homosexuality, cross-dressing and other forms of sodomy so this shouldn't be hard. FlashMarsh addressed this and pulled out pertinent examples from Iran which carried out the death penalty for sodomy. However, it seems even in Iran there have been at most 3-4 executions in the past 10 years. This is a major shift from the hundreds of executions per year following the Islamic Revolution indicating they are phasing out of capital punishment for sodomy. Now my next challenge is for FlashMarsh to find a case of capital punishment for consensual sodomy in Saudi Arabia for the past 20 years. In the Saudi Arabian alternative to the Wikipedia articles you are referencing for Iran, I haven't been able to find any death sentence in the past 20 years for consensual sodomy. Perhaps I might be wrong again, but if I am, the figure FlashMarsh will retrieve will not be more than 5 deaths in the past 20 years. And this says a lot when thousands are convicted annually for sodomy, and only 5 every 20 years are killed. It signals the abolition of capital punishment for homosexuals.[/QUOTE] You are off on a pointless tangent here. The question was asked "aren't all muslims homophobic." I posted the penal code for the majority of muslim countries which pretty much suggests that they are or at least should be according to their law, regardless of the fact that the governments have reigned in murdering them now. I would hazard a guess that most muslims even the moderate ones in western civilised countries view homosexuals with disdain.
[QUOTE=Starpluck;50510813]Can you name a Middle Eastern government, including the likes of Saudi Arabia or Iran that have carried out the death penalty as prescribed in their penal code for homosexuality? I am not asking for the penal code on homosexuality, I know it exists and I know it is never used. I am asking for a case in the past 20 years where an Islamic government (i.e. not ISIS/Taliban/Al-Qaeda) in the Middle East carried out the death sentence for homosexuality. They aren't any death sentences carried out. This also includes the alleged death sentence for apostasy or being an "atheist" in the Middle East, none of which have resulted in any death sentences in the past 20 years despite numerous convictions for these offenses.[/QUOTE] Uhm... 1- How do you know whenever they execute someone for homosexuality, for example? Do they make it some kind of statement? But more importantly... 2- I highly doubt anyone would even think about "coming out of the closet" in those countries, hence why that rule isn't being enforced. Probably because nobody wants to get killed...
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;50510424]The fact that they get to house themselves in civilized/1st world countries in any case, or take any contracts from governments, is appalling.[/QUOTE] :what: My university employs AlliedBarton security to keep all of our campus buildings spread throughout the city of savannah secure and even does daily car patrols around the city to help students in distress, after nearly being robbed twice im glad they do, they are also chill as fuck. Most private security employees are former military or law enforcement. As for "government contracts" not all of them are for war operations, some are simply guard duty for research labs. Would you prefer the police or military guard your school, museams, malls, gated communities and whatnot? In a perfect world maybe but police are busy dealing with and going to address active disturbances in society, they arent guards. Your absolute hatred for private security is completely unfounded.
[QUOTE=Géza!;50511133]So now they aren't just outright killing gay people. While that is an important paradigm shift, I'm still hesitant to congratulate them on for "only" imprisoning people and "only" executing one once every blue moon.[/QUOTE] [quote]In 2001, Saudi teacher and playwright Muhammad Al-Suhaimi was charged with promoting homosexuality and after a trial was sentenced to prison. In 2006, he was given a pardon and allowed to resume teaching.[9] In May 2005, the government arrested 92 men for homosexuality, who were given sentences ranging [B]from fines[/B] to prison sentences of [B]several months[/B] and lashings.[/quote] There is a pretty big difference between receiving a fine for homosexuality and capital punishment. Enough to warrant a correction. They do lashings in some cases which can be argued as worse than a prison sentence. For sodomy that would warrant a lashing, it seems the most publicized example was someone who shot a gay porn video in Saudi Arabia, while he was inside a Saudi Arabian prison at the same time (incarcerated) so aggravating circumstances would only result in the enhanced penalty of sodomy. While I do believe some simple sodomites are lashed regardless, I do not think it ever goes past 20 lashes for simple sodomy. But even if all sodomites in Saudi Arabia were lashed (they aren't, some are only given fines) that is still pretty big than saying they just "kill them off" for being gay. Further, anyone who was facing the sword would spit on your face as their final death wish if you compared their punishment to 100 lashings. They would gladly endure 100 lashings and be done with it as opposed to having their head severed. To say a 15 minute lashing session once a week (for 3 weeks) is "same shit" as the death penalty insults those who were put to sword for the very offense. Below is a report that says no one is basically executed for homosexuality unless it was done in conjugation with murder or rape. [quote]Recent reports of people being executed for homosexuality often add other charges to the offense, typically theft, rape or murder. For example, a gay Yemeni was executed for homosexuality and murder in 2013.[17][/quote] The Saudi Arabian judicial system does actually accept the concept of consensual sodomy. They don't say "Oh if it was sodomy then it is always rape" if the other partner says it was not rape/unable to provide 4 eye witnesses etc. [QUOTE=Roc™;50511203]But more importantly... 2- I highly doubt anyone would even think about "coming out of the closet" in those countries, hence why that rule isn't being enforced. Probably because nobody wants to get killed...[/QUOTE] There are thousands of convictions for homosexuality/sodomy per year in the Middle East. I am referring to the people who get caught, and the percentile of them who actually die.
What about lesbians?
Anyone who excludes lesbians from LGBT (what does the first letter in LGBT stand for) is being disingenuous to you.
I really love this over-explanation of incredibly awful laws that indicate homophobic tendencies only being slightly homophobic. Can we just recongnize that Muslim-majority countrie's attitudes towards homosexuality is worse then the rest of the world on average?
[QUOTE=Starpluck;50511466]Anyone who excludes lesbians from LGBT (what does the first letter in LGBT stand for) is being disingenuous to you.[/QUOTE] You pretty much only spoke of sodomy cases, which is why I'm asking. And also because being involved in anything sexual as a woman gets you in a world of trouble (compared to how men have it) in the average Middle-eastern judiciary system, and I feel homosexuality is no different.
We are beating about the bush here, their attitudes toward gays and women are draconian. No if's no buts.
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;50510815]I wouldn't be surprised if most what appears to be "moderate" Muslims actually cheer for Omar Mateen secretly.[/QUOTE] What the fuck [editline]13th June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=karlosfandango;50511875]We are beating about the bush here, their attitudes toward gays and women are draconian. No if's no buts.[/QUOTE] Nice black and white thinking, you know who else thinks like that?
[QUOTE=Killuah;50512346]What the fuck [editline]13th June 2016[/editline] Nice black and white thinking, you know who else thinks like that?[/QUOTE] Killuah?
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;50510815]I wouldn't be surprised if most what appears to be "moderate" Muslims actually cheer for Omar Mateen secretly.[/QUOTE] Are you fucking kidding me? Jesus christ the amount of racism in this thread is disgusting wtf [editline]13th June 2016[/editline] Sure there are a few middle eastern countries that are ass backwards but how is this relevant to the discussion exactly? This was a shooting carried out by a U.S born citizen who was deranged and homophobic and who likely found solace in muslim extremism because they share his views on homosexuality
[QUOTE=Killuah;50512346]Nice black and white thinking, you know who else thinks like that?[/QUOTE] Wait, how are you even remotely attempting to justify treating others differently based on gender or sexuality? There shouldn't be any "black and white", it should just all be "white". Everyone is the same. Seriously, what the fuck...
FlashMarsh, I'm really sorry for going full retard. A lot of booze was involved, and it brought out my slumbering thisispain. [QUOTE=Britain;50510589] Banning yourself as damage control to hide your own hypocrisy. Good one[/QUOTE] Yes, I thought that was a perfectly good idea. I don't know what your problem is, lose your shitty attitude.
[QUOTE=Revenge282;50512762]Wait, how are you even remotely attempting to justify treating others differently based on gender or sexuality? There shouldn't be any "black and white", it should just all be "white". Everyone is the same. Seriously, what the fuck...[/QUOTE] That's why I'm saying that "their attitudes toward gays and women are draconian. No if's no buts." is black and white thinking????
[QUOTE=karlosfandango;50510778]Traditionally, Islam considers homosexuality to be a sin. Homosexuality in most of the Islamic world is illegal and carries the death penalty in quite a few countries. In most Muslim-majority countries same sex intercourse is legal though.[/QUOTE] Wait what... how? I mean I don't doubt what you say is true because of some disturbing things that go down there, like some Afghan soldiers being accused of raping things regardless of gender; but how the hell do they enforce that? Homosexuality is banned, but same sex intercourse isn't. Do they just like randomly make exceptions for certain people or something? Edit: Maybe I misinterpreted that. Is there some sort of difference between "the Islamic world" and "Muslim-majority" countries? Thought both of them would have implemented Sharia Law and stoned people regardless.
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;50510815]I wouldn't be surprised if most what appears to be "moderate" Muslims actually cheer for Omar Mateen secretly. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Trolling" - Big Dumb American))[/highlight][/QUOTE] This shouldn't be ban material should it? It would depend on your definition of moderate Muslim. A moderate Muslim in a third world country may be way more inclined to support the attack than a moderate Muslim in a first world country. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Derailing" - Big Dumb American))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=Swebonny;50510227]:cry:[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Swebonny;50510316]Good fucking job, you know how to cite Wikipedia.[/QUOTE] Is this real life
[QUOTE=Chernobyl426;50513448]This shouldn't be ban material should it? It would depend on your definition of moderate Muslim. A moderate Muslim in a third world country may be way more inclined to support the attack than a moderate Muslim in a first world country.[/QUOTE] Uhh if they support mass killing then they really aren't moderate.
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;50514419]You are completely missing it. He is obviously talking about moderates in the first world. He is making fun of people who say moderate muslims are fine and integrate well with his sarcastic quotes. It is a dumb as fuck comment and ban is IMO right.[/QUOTE] But there are statistics to back that a sizable percentage of Muslims in first world countries like England were for something like the Charlie Hebdo attacks. [url]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11433776/Quarter-of-British-Muslims-sympathise-with-Charlie-Hebdo-terrorists.html[/url] I really don't think the way he posted that was right (secretly cheering...?), but you guys can't also ignore that a group on the borderline of fundamental Islam can actually be sympathetic to Omar in a few cases.
Don't post to discuss other peoples' bans, or you will be banned as well for derailing. The refugee camp allows banned users to appeal a ban if they think it is unfair, where it is reviewed by other moderators. Whether you personally think a user's ban is justified or not doesn't enter the equation.
[QUOTE=Tudd;50511593]I really love this over-explanation of incredibly awful laws that indicate homophobic tendencies only being slightly homophobic. Can we just recongnize that Muslim-majority countrie's attitudes towards homosexuality is worse then the rest of the world on average?[/QUOTE] I wouldn't say the fact that most of them are muslims are what really makes those countries so homophobic, rather, it's the fact that religious beliefs largely play into the government, and that they nearly rule over them. doesn't help that there's no sign of them changing anything any time soon, as far as i'm aware. but you aren't incorrect, however i feel some would take it the wrong way.
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