• How to raise boys to be good men.
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[QUOTE=Silly Sil;43322437]Yeah stay in denial about the fact that there are idiots who call themselves feminists. The fact that you can't grasp the simple concept that disagreeing with certain people doesn't mean I disagree with the entire movement will never cease to baffle me. I've already had this conversation on this very page. Read it?[/QUOTE] there are idiots that call themselves anything, what does it matter? this is something you seem to forget again and again and again, it's like when people say white males can't be oppressed, it's because systematic oppression against a majority isn't possible except for in extreme circumstances (like apartheid south africa) when random tumblr psychos say this crap that you continuously attribute to the entire feminist movement, it doesn't mean anything, tumblr psychos are not and never will be in a position where their extremism will negatively affect you, so why keep focusing on them? [editline]28th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=katbug;43322503]I have a feeling that 90% of all posters that get riled up over x or y are actually just faking enthusiasm or flat out attention/approval seeking, and actually probably just have mild opinions of x or y. Just so they can, in their minds (or publicly) be like "look at how spastic and retarded (insert similar yet not precise view here) is, I'm going to shitpost ironically now, lol" And the cycle just propagates[/QUOTE] i'd say most people are pretty hyperbolic on the internet, just a symptom of impersonal media i guess
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43323011]there are idiots that call themselves anything, what does it matter? this is something you seem to forget again and again and again, it's like when people say white males can't be oppressed, it's because systematic oppression against a majority isn't possible except for in extreme circumstances (like apartheid south africa) when random tumblr psychos say [B]this crap that you continuously attribute to the entire feminist movement[/B], it doesn't mean anything,[B] tumblr psychos[/B] are not and never will be in a position where their extremism will negatively affect you, [B]so why keep focusing on them?[/B][/QUOTE] You just said I attribute the logic of a minority to the entire movement, just to say that I only focus on some insignificant group a moment later. I have said this time after time, I'm calling out a specific group within the feminist movement, not the entire movement. If there's someone failing to understand something, it's you. And if the remarks about how white males can't be oppressed are only about systematic oppression, then why do you people keep bringing this up when people talk about individual cases? You also seem to think that my motivation to oppose this bullshit is because I feel threatened by it. Do you really assume that every person who disagrees with a feminist does that because they feel threatened by equal rights because that would mean loosing their privilege? Have you completely lost touch with reality?
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;43323126]You just said I attribute the logic of a minority to the entire movement, just to say that I only focus on some insignificant group a moment later. I have said this time after time, I'm calling out a specific group within the feminist movement, not the entire movement. If there's someone failing to understand something, it's you. And if the remarks about how white males can't be oppressed are only about systematic oppression, then why do you people keep bringing this up when people talk about individual cases? You also seem to think that my motivation to oppose this bullshit is because I feel threatened by it. Do you really assume that every person who disagrees with a feminist does that because they feel threatened by equal rights because that would mean loosing their privilege? You have completely lost touch with reality.[/QUOTE] WHY do you call out this specific group though? what purpose does that serve? what are you going to get out of focusing on extremist elements that do not and never will have any power not only within the movement itself but society as a whole?
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43323136]WHY do you call out this specific group though? what purpose does that serve? what are you going to get out of focusing on extremist elements that do not and never will have any power not only within the movement itself but society as a whole?[/QUOTE] Because crazy people within a movement have to be separated from the movement, otherwise they become the face of the movement as most of the time, they are the most vocal ones. And I do it here because there are some batshit crazy people who claim to be feminists on this forum. Again, just because I call them out on their insane bullshit it doesn't mean I oppose feminism as a whole. [editline]27th December 2013[/editline] To put it simply, I oppose people who give feminists bad rep while calling themselves feminists. I know this goes against your logic that you can't disagree with a feminist without supporting patriarchy but please try to understand.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;43323226]I know this goes against your logic that you can't disagree with a feminist without supporting patriarchy but please try to understand.[/QUOTE] jesus christ stop strawmanning for a second will ya
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;43323555]jesus christ stop strawmanning for a second will ya[/QUOTE] Jesus christ he realizes I'm talking about a small group yet he says shit like "this crap that you continuously attribute to the entire feminist movement". Focus for a moment will ya
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;43323555]jesus christ stop strawmanning for a second will ya[/QUOTE] I believe the non-discriminatory term is strawpersoning.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;43323734]Jesus christ he realizes I'm talking about a small group yet he says shit like "this crap that you continuously attribute to the entire feminist movement". Focus for a moment will ya[/QUOTE] But you only focus on these small groups, whenever feminism is brought up. There will always be fringe people in every group and they will always be scapegoated for the entire group. If there wasn't Femen it'd be tumblr, if there wasn't tumblr it'd be something else. They don't become the "face of feminism" because they are vocal, its primarily because people seek out the fringe justify their views.
[QUOTE=Valnar;43324999]But you only focus on these small groups, whenever feminism is brought up. There will always be fringe people in every group and they will always be scapegoated for the entire group. If there wasn't Femen it'd be tumblr, if there wasn't tumblr it'd be something else.[/QUOTE] I post about these people because they are present on this forum and frequent threads like these. Although their number is dwindling because they are getting themselves permabanned, but I guess that goes with being a lunatic. [QUOTE=Valnar;43324999]They don't become the "face of feminism" because they are vocal, its primarily because people seek out the fringe justify their views.[/QUOTE] "Everyone who opposes us is purposefully biased" is a very dumb excuse to tolerate people who make your movement look bad. The vocal members of a movement set the face of it, especially one which doesn't have a structure or leaders. Who do you think your average joe will see on the news? The balanced and understanding feminist talking about real issues or one of the FEMEN members doing a striptease in a church? Do you really think that everyone actively seeks out information about feminism when they form an opinion about it? For those who don't actively seek out information, which the majority, the face of any movement is going to be what they see on the news. Same goes for an internet forum. Will a random guy form his opinion based on a single balanced post or the sea of shitposting done by the people in question? If you don't want the entire movement generalized based on some "small group" then you separate the movement from that small group and call them out on their bullshit. Which is exactly what I'm doing so I don't understand your problem. I'm not doing it to discredit feminism. I'm doing it to discredit those particular people and say that they do not give adequate representation of the entire movement.
"hello, allow me to explain to you why muslim extremists are bad people" this is not separating muslim extremists from the rest of the muslim population, this is just making obvious statements about a group that nobody likes. this is what you're doing at the moment. [QUOTE=milkandcooki;43320791]you make some sort of derivative of this post in every single thread. you're missing the point in such a weird contrived way. do you even understand the concept of privilege? do you understand what people mean when they say somebody who is better off is an oppressor? or do you see "white people" and "oppressor" and immediately freak the hell out? judging by the imaginary SJWs you've been arguing with i guess you don't.[/QUOTE] can you explain again how one having benefits being forced on them, without asking for them, due to an arbitrary factor, makes a person an oppressor? i'm just having a hard time wrapping my head around exactly what is supposed to be [I]done[/I] about an idea like that. taking a person's privilege away is not synonymous with allowing oppressed echelons of society to transcend the social and economic barriers that allowed them to be privileged in the first place. i'd think that there should be focus on elevating the status of women, rather than calling men oppressors for being given benefits that they never asked for. then the privileges would pretty much just go away anyway. exactly how is one supposed to combat the privilege that they're given? should i walk into a job interview and say 'btw you should totally hire a woman or a black dude'? should i apologize when buying clothes because the fashion industry isn't trying to lower my self-esteem as part of a marketing campaign? it's not like some gift card that was stolen from the person in line behind me and given to me. i can't just turn around and return my privilege to people, because there is no A-to-B direct victim here, and i am just a single individual in a society of millions in which everyone participates. i understand that i'm privileged. i'm a feminist myself. but [I]what else do you want me to do?[/I]
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;43325154]I post about these people because they are present on this forum and frequent threads like these. Although their number is dwindling because they are getting themselves permabanned, but I guess that goes with being a lunatic. "Everyone who opposes us is purposefully biased" is a very dumb excuse to tolerate people who make your movement look bad. The vocal members of a movement set the face of it, especially one which doesn't have a structure or leaders. Who do you think your average joe will see on the news? The balanced and understanding feminist talking about real issues or one of the FEMEN members doing a striptease in a church? Do you really think that everyone actively seeks out information about feminism when they form an opinion about it? For those who don't actively seek out information, which the majority, the face of any movement is going to be what they see on the news. Same goes for an internet forum. Will a random guy form his opinion based on a single balanced post or the sea of shitposting done by the people in question? If you don't want the entire movement generalized based on some "small group" then you separate the movement from that small group and call them out on their bullshit. Which is exactly what I'm doing so I don't understand your problem. I'm not doing it to discredit feminism. I'm doing it to discredit those particular people and say that they do not give adequate representation of the entire movement.[/QUOTE] I'm not saying "everyone who opposes us is purposefully biased", I'm saying only focusing on damage controlling against those small groups is not good. You can disagree with what femen does, but only focusing on them gets really annoying. It just seems like every time there is a discussion about feminism you only ever talk about the extremists within the group. [QUOTE=joes33431;43325438]"hello, allow me to explain to you why muslim extremists are bad people" this is not separating muslim extremists from the rest of the muslim population, this is just making obvious statements about a group that nobody likes. this is what you're doing at the moment. can you explain again how one having benefits being forced on them, without asking for them, due to an arbitrary factor, makes a person an oppressor? i'm just having a hard time wrapping my head around exactly what is supposed to be [I]done[/I] about an idea like that. taking a person's privilege away is not synonymous with allowing oppressed echelons of society to transcend the social and economic barriers that allowed them to be privileged in the first place. i'd think that there should be focus on elevating the status of women, rather than calling men oppressors for being given benefits that they never asked for. then the privileges would pretty much just go away anyway. exactly how is one supposed to combat the privilege that they're given? should i walk into a job interview and say 'btw you should totally hire a woman or a black dude'? should i apologize when buying clothes because the fashion industry isn't trying to lower my self-esteem as part of a marketing campaign? it's not like some gift card that was stolen from the person in line behind me and given to me. i can't just turn around and return my privilege to people, because there is no A-to-B direct victim here, and i am just a single individual in a society of millions in which everyone participates. i understand that i'm privileged. i'm a feminist myself. but [I]what else do you want me to do?[/I][/QUOTE] You can't really 'do' anything directly about privilege, its just something you have to be aware of. Being actually aware of it and having that be part of you normal thought process means that you are probably less likely to reinforce the social problems and more likely actually do stuff that is against the status quo.
[QUOTE=Valnar;43325533]I'm not saying "everyone who opposes us is purposefully biased", I'm saying only focusing on damage controlling against those small groups is not good. You can disagree with what femen does, but only focusing on them gets really annoying. It just seems like every time there is a discussion about feminism you only ever talk about the extremists within the group.[/QUOTE] I talk about extremists because they are present in most of these threads or the discussion focuses on extremists from the very beginning. Except this thread, I just made fun of the logic some of these people have when someone asked a relevant question. I'll shut up about it now, I feel like everything has been said.
I feel this video applies. [video=youtube;hc45-ptHMxo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hc45-ptHMxo[/video]
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;43323555]jesus christ stop strawmanning for a second will ya[/QUOTE] Because you and people who are on your side never strawman, rite? rite?
There seems to be a strange irony in CNN's assumption that the issue lies in "males not knowing how to lead their female partners well enough" Personally looking from a less gender-skewed perspective the issue can easily lie in the fact that women are not raised to be confident and sexually assertive. If a girl breaks up with a guy because the [I]guy[/I] didn't make a move on her, that seems to be an equally large issue with the girl not taking an initiative because she feels it would be an "un-feminine" gesture.
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;43326091] If a girl breaks up with a guy because the [I]guy[/I] didn't make a move on her[/QUOTE] How can a girl break up with a guy who didn't make a move?
[QUOTE=itisjuly;43326143]How can a girl break up with a guy who didn't make a move?[/QUOTE] Well it helps if you actually read the article in question
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;43326198]Well it helps if you actually read the article in question[/QUOTE] Where does it mention anything about breaking up before even starting a relationship?
[quote]"Where do you draw the line?" asked 15-year-old Tom. "I've [B]been broken up with[/B] for not kissing a girl. But if I kiss her too soon, what if she feels taken advantage of or hurt?"[/quote] If he got broken up with for not kissing a girl, it may be a cue that there's an issue with how the girl she sees her own initiative.
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;43326327]If he got broken up with for not kissing a girl, it may be a cue that there's an issue with how the girl she sees her own initiative.[/QUOTE] We also need to factor in that the boy is 15 so the girl also is probably 15. Someone should not be getting upset at 15 over girls.
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;43326327]If he got broken up with for not kissing a girl, it may be a cue that there's an issue with how the girl she sees her own initiative.[/QUOTE] Oh that. I thought by move you meant asking her out or something, not a move to kiss her when they're in a relationship already (which is kinda weird to be in a relationship without having kissed but besides the point)
[QUOTE=katbug;43326022]Because you and people who are on your side never strawman, rite? rite?[/QUOTE] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem#Tu_quoque[/url] literally doesn't matter, regardless of which side of any argument is guilty of hypocrisy.
[QUOTE=TorashVD;43308776]This behavior was totally accepted in the first half of the 20th century. [/QUOTE] the majority of people also thought that wearing seatbelts was unmanly when they were first introduced in the middle of the 20th century, but hey, these days thanks to modern medicine and science we now know that seatbelts won't cut you in half, and punching people in the head can kill them or leave them permanently disabled, and is thus fucking stupid to do unless they are trying to kill you put your roid rage away
[QUOTE=katbug;43326022]Because you and people who are on your side never strawman, rite? rite?[/QUOTE] wow you should tip your euphoric fedora [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Shitposting" - MaxOfS2D))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;43327188]wow you should tip your euphoric fedora[/QUOTE] Euphoric Fedora actually sounds like a great name for a band. ... Uh, I mean, gender roles, and such.
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;43327188]wow you should tip your euphoric fedora[/QUOTE] I hope that fedora jokes will never die out, so I won't run out of things to complain about. Seriously though, stop with this ass. It's months past being funny or zingy~.
[QUOTE=Riutet;43323846]I believe the non-discriminatory term is strawpersoning.[/QUOTE] you can't discriminate against men :) [editline]28th December 2013[/editline] (just a joke fellas)
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43328030]you can't discriminate against men :) [/QUOTE] Thats a prevalent opinion on this forum.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;43328135]Thats a prevalent opinion on this forum.[/QUOTE] It's really not if you bother to read and stop believing your delusions are true. What most people argue is that it's harder to discriminate against men, not impossible, as we have a higher standing in society already. For everything we are "discriminated" over, we still have some privilege in other areas.
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