• Reject the establishment or watch the far-right take over, Corbyn tells Europe's centre-left leaders
    68 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Rossy167;51472901]Sorry mate, the current rhetoric that left wingers are shutting down arguments and refusing to discuss things is a crock of shit. This is a bipartisan thing, conservatives are just as guilty.[/QUOTE] Nowhere did i say right-wingers aren't guilty of this same behavior. You're not wrong with saying that conservatives and right wingers in general have been the parties responsible for repression of discussion and spread of disinformation. That's come to be pretty much synonymous with ring-wing ideology. But the fact that left wingers have started doing it too, is in my opinion one of the root causes for all the mismanagement and social regression we are experiencing. The leftists should be the party that embraces ideas and evaluates everything fairly, instead it has in many cases become utterly dogmatic, rife with subjects that are taboo to discuss, and as such it has utterly lost it's ability to compete with the right wingers, hence why they are on the rise. It's getting pretty fucking tiresome how hard people i argue with on this forum try to peg me as a right-winger, i'd rather fucking die than call myself conservative, i'm an actual progressive, in that i want to dispose of dogmatic thinking and usher forth a future of universal rights, free of ideological and religious suppression.
[QUOTE=NoOneKnowsMe;51470597]I always hear that the supposed "PC" culture makes people vote right, but I never see any proof for that. Seems to me more like a bogeyman than anything else.[/QUOTE] it makes an amazing scapegoat. "hey look at those guys over there, they're too concerned with black transgendered lesbians getting access to birth control to fix the economy" [editline]4th December 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Fourm Shark;51475610]When will the moderates rise again?[/QUOTE] unless people definitively say "you work with the opposition or else" it won't. The republicans successfully took over the country by flat out refusing to work with anyone, now just even considering working with the other side is enough to get someone labeled too moderate
[QUOTE=Sableye;51475616]Unless people definitively say "you work with the opposition or else" it won't. The republicans successfully took over the country by flat out refusing to work with anyone, [B]now just even considering working with the other side is enough to get someone labeled too moderate[/B][/QUOTE] Goddamn that's beyond stupid, are they intentionally trying to breed extremism?
I like how people are saying PC culture has gone mad when the far right hero Trump goes utterly ape shit over getting laughed at on SNL, no prominent left wing figure in any major Western country does that, at all.
[QUOTE=GrizzlyBear;51475705]I like how people are saying PC culture has gone mad when the far right hero Trump goes utterly ape shit over getting laughed at on SNL, no prominent left wing figure in any major Western country does that, at all.[/QUOTE] Dude you're comparing culture with a person now. When someone say's PC culture has gone mad they mean that for instance people are being called racist/islamophobes/alt-right for criticizing full open border policy. Including situations where a left-leaning pro-open-broder person calls a left-leaning anti-open-broder person an alt-righter bigot.
[QUOTE=GrizzlyBear;51475705]I like how people are saying PC culture has gone mad when the far right hero Trump goes utterly ape shit over getting laughed at on SNL, no prominent left wing figure in any major Western country does that, at all.[/QUOTE] I like how you think something trump did devalues our criticisms of PC culture.
[QUOTE=Sableye;51475616]it makes an amazing scapegoat. "hey look at those guys over there, they're too concerned with black transgendered lesbians getting access to birth control to fix the economy"[/QUOTE] Say Joe is scared of Isis terrorists posing as migrants. Left-leaning politician says that if you have that concern you are a bigot and the right-leaning politician says he's going to do something about it. Even if his solution is too extreme for Joe he's still gonna vote right. The more you call people idiots and bigots and take moral highground over them and the less you try to make them understand what's going on, that for instance extensive vetting process is already implemented in the US the more they will go to the right. Because the right doesn't call them names and listens to their concerns.
[QUOTE=Judas;51470273]holy shit, what? people arguing for political correctness are not the people trying to ban criticizing the government, repealing civil rights laws, and putting cronyism first[/QUOTE]Yes, but a lot of people arguing for political correctness aren't exactly saints as you're implying. At least, that's what I think you're implying.
I remember reading a story of a refugee who watched his town get blown up, his family and neighbours taken by ISIS and then executed. The only reason he survived is because he hid under the bodies and pretended to be dead. Who the fuck are we to tell people like that they should turn around and return immediately because they're 'undesirable'? I agree that they themselves should sort out the entire situation with our help, but it's impossible to do that in the current state of affairs. What happened to compassion?
[QUOTE=St33m;51470111]I'ts not just the establishment. It's also the recent leftist trend of of shutting down discussion of important topics for fear of sexism or racism, or political correctness in general. The left essentially makes itself stagnant, and so they've practically handed national discourse to the right wingers.[/QUOTE] Oh yeah it's totes the SJWs brah they keep ruining everything... They should be more nice to people and not call out -ism's otherwise it's justified that those people turn into nazis. I really don't get this whole "You shouldn't have called so many people racist or sexist now they've turned to the far right" thing that has emerged lately. I mean sure I disagree with the use of those terms to shut down discussion but I disagree with the inappropriate use of any terms used to do that not just the "hipster"=/="SJW" ones that a lot of people seem to be having a big circle jerk about. This whole "it's all the left's fault" thing seems pretty stupid. Racists and sexists deserve to be called out and suffer the consequences of their ignorance providing that the terms aren't being thrown at them as a muzzle or to shut them down.
[QUOTE=JustExtreme;51475862]Oh yeah it's totes the SJWs brah they keep ruining everything... They should be more nice to people and not call out -ism's otherwise it's justified that those people turn into nazis. I really don't get this whole "You shouldn't have called so many people racist or sexist now they've turned to the far right" thing that has emerged lately. I mean sure I disagree with the use of those terms to shut down discussion but I disagree with the use of any terms that are used to do that not just the "hipster"/SJW ones.[/QUOTE] That's not what i said. I do think it's true that these new-age leftists are too quick to cry racist and sexist, to the point where these words have lost a lot of their meaning. But the real problem here is that these misguided sensibilities have the effect of preventing meaningful discussion within leftist circles. Things are outright ignored or spun untruthfully. And so i'm saying that if the leftists aren't discussing these things, then the right wingers have the stage to themselves, and can dominate it and slant it to fit their purposes in the public discourse.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;51475793]Say Joe is scared of Isis terrorists posing as migrants. Left-leaning politician says that if you have that concern you are a bigot and the right-leaning politician says he's going to do something about it. Even if his solution is too extreme for Joe he's still gonna vote right. The more you call people idiots and bigots and take moral highground over them and the less you try to make them understand what's going on, that for instance extensive vetting process is already implemented in the US the more they will go to the right. Because the right doesn't call them names and listens to their concerns.[/QUOTE] That's populism though. If I'm a populist, you think I don't see that all the Joes in this country are scared? You think I don't know that immigrants are historically the scapegoat whenever times are troubled? So of course I tell them what they want to hear. "Your troubles are the immigrants' fault" "There are too many immigrants" "I will stop immigration from from these places". It's difficult for honest voices to overcome that because if people are already inclined to believe certain things, like for instance being xenophobic, then they will instinctively disregard what you say unless your message is at its core anti-immigration. If they think crime is running rampant in the streets even if the crime rates are going down, then they won't listen to you unless your message is "We must get tough on crime!".
Honestly, I've become very tired of politics recently. My country is getting increasingly filled with hate language and actual violence thanks to neo-nazis and far-righters gaining ground (yes, I'm talking about actual neo-nazi groups, ONR for example). If you try discussing the matter with them, they will dismiss you and call you a leftist asshole. While there's a lot of normal, moderate people the extremists are becoming more and more visible, hell they might even become a part of our future "country protection militia". The future seems more foreboding to me... and the hateful part of the rightwing keeps growing, and I can't do anything about it. Like I'm trying as hard as I can to convince my far right-wing peers to left-wing opinions through discussion and it sometimes works but I feel like I'm pissing against the tidal wave of extremists of all kinds. Fuck today and the future.
[QUOTE=download;51470577]He has chosen to completely ignore the other factor that is driving people right. The establishment isn't the only thing giving power to the right, lunatic regressive lefties are too.[/QUOTE] If lunatic regressive lefties are driving you to the right, you're an idiot. The extreme left is retarded. So is the extreme right. It literally doesn't matter what it is, ANY idea taken to a sufficient extreme is retarded.
I honestly doubt PC culture shit is that big of a factor in all this I think it's EU and national politicians promising to do something but not keeping their promise, or doing something else entirely. This is closely tied to economic factors, in that polticians promise to solve shit but nothing appears to improve to the people that are now angry. That's what some people appear to be feeling in my country at least. I think I can assume that sentiment is probably shared with other countries in the EU. There's a trust issue.
[QUOTE=Doozle;51472953]I simply can't believe that people are driven to the right by "politcal correctness gone mad"[/QUOTE] thats ridiculous to the point of me saying something like you lean left because you want to smoke weed, get free money and put things in your asshole
You people are sort of proving my point. Despite many people coming out and agreeing that's a reason you continue to scream "it can't be true!"
You're also working with very specific data since you're talking to a bunch of facepunchers. We're a bunch of nerds on the internet and SJWs are a super super hot topic to us.
[QUOTE=cecilbdemodded;51475982]That's populism though. If I'm a populist, you think I don't see that all the Joes in this country are scared? You think I don't know that immigrants are historically the scapegoat whenever times are troubled? So of course I tell them what they want to hear. "Your troubles are the immigrants' fault" "There are too many immigrants" "I will stop immigration from from these places". It's difficult for honest voices to overcome that because if people are already inclined to believe certain things, like for instance being xenophobic, then they will instinctively disregard what you say unless your message is at its core anti-immigration. If they think crime is running rampant in the streets even if the crime rates are going down, then they won't listen to you unless your message is "We must get tough on crime!".[/QUOTE] First, you are equating everyone who has [I]any [/I]concern regarding muslim immigration as a bigot. There's a scope - from someone a bit scared of potential terrorism because he saw what's going on in europe and is uninformed on the US vetting process to someone who outright hates muslims. Stop demonizing these people and making it look like EVERYONE who has any second thoughts on muslim immigration is a giant islamophobe. You're doing exactly what I'm talking about. If you don't [I]talk [/I]to these people and instead put them into one bag defined by the worst group in there, you are making sure that they will talk to [I]each other[/I] only and go even more to the right. Second, [I]some [/I]people will disregard your message if it's not extreme solution because some of them will not accept anything short of a ban but they will [I]all [/I]disregard you and go in the opposite direction if you call them all bigots. [QUOTE=Trebgarta;51476004]Do you seriously believe you can go to these people and tell them "we already vet refugees and immigrants", and they wont say "what about INSERT_TERROR_EVENT" and the obvious, honest answer is "statistical oddity, only way to prevent that would be to shut down all borders, put up an iron curtain, surely we arent THAT crazy" and you expect them to understand and not vote for the guy promising immigration bans, and iron curtains There is no winning some people. I dont have a solution but your solution wont work either.[/QUOTE] You too are judging everyone has [I]any [/I]concern regarding muslim immigration by the worst of them. Do you actually believe that anyone who has anything negative to say about for instance open border policy is a giant islamophobe and wants to shut the borders down? Following this logic can I assume that all feminists are red-haired crazies who hate men. Do you seriously not see a problem with this way of thinking? The majority of those with concerns involving muslim immigration are not extreme and could change their mind but you're not going to do that by calling them unsalvageable racists. [editline]5th December 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=thelurker1234;51477472]You're also working with very specific data since you're talking to a bunch of facepunchers. We're a bunch of nerds on the internet and SJWs are a super super hot topic to us.[/QUOTE] [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoLDX6RHTY4[/url] "Basked of deplorables" [url]http://edition.cnn.com/2016/10/11/politics/glenn-beck-hillary-clinton-moral-ethical-choice/[/url] Yeah it just affects nerds.
[QUOTE=!LORD M!;51470194]Remember what Churchill said: “The Fascists of the future will be the anti-fascists.” Turns out he was right.[/QUOTE] From Wikipedia: [QUOTE]I actually contacted the Churchill Society and asked them if Winston Churchill had ever said "the fascists of the future will be called anti-fascists" They replied saying there was absolutely no evidence anywhere of him ever saying is and so, therefore, he didn't say it. For some reason it has been attributed to him incorrectly. [/QUOTE] [url]https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Winston_Churchill#The_fascists_of_the_future_will_be_called_anti-fascists[/url]
[QUOTE=Doozle;51472953]I simply can't believe that people are driven to the right by "politcal correctness gone mad"[/QUOTE] Believe what you want. [QUOTE=Recurracy;51475835]I remember reading a story of a refugee who watched his town get blown up, his family and neighbours taken by ISIS and then executed. The only reason he survived is because he hid under the bodies and pretended to be dead. Who the fuck are we to tell people like that they should turn around and return immediately because they're 'undesirable'?[/QUOTE] You refuse to help civilians being bombed by their ruler for exercising democratic rights, their only discourse is to get help from lunatics or they die now and then when they join the lunatics so they can feed their family and then escape to a more tolerant society they get called jihadis because the Obama's of the world were not willing to help them. What a world.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;51477511] [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoLDX6RHTY4[/URL] "Basked of deplorables" [URL]http://edition.cnn.com/2016/10/11/politics/glenn-beck-hillary-clinton-moral-ethical-choice/[/URL] Yeah it just affects nerds.[/QUOTE] People shouting pepe will be just the demographic I described. It's also not an SJW thing to say that the alt-right has those elements within certain subgroups. I don't know how what glenn beck said is related at all to SJWs either. Or is ANY suggestion of ethical and moral conduct PC culture gone mad?
[QUOTE=Recurracy;51475835]What happened to compassion?[/QUOTE] Terrorism did. And thanks to global media entire western world is terrorized to fear muslims for decades to come. Years and years of conflict in the middle-east has painted entire ethnicity to look like killers to a lot of people. Fear is a powerful thing, and as far as i know there isn't an easy answer to it. Then there is the rising taxes and fleeing jobs, you put that together with fear of terrorist attacks and you get a whole load of anxious and angry people. At least here the problem has been that government hasn't been able to do anything for a long time letting problems just snowball out of control. People want change and far as i can see no one really knows what kind of change.
[QUOTE=download;51470616]Though somewhat anecdotal I would use my own father as an example of a very left-leaning person going right in response to what he sees as political correctness gone mad.[/QUOTE] To support this, I work regular 50 hr weeks at the biggest 247 station in the state doing overnights, every one of my regulars who bring up supporting Trump cites political correctness as a cancer, to repeat their words. It's anecdotal, but when we're talking about public perception I think it's fair to use public opinion as a source
[QUOTE=ferrus;51477734]From Wikipedia: [url]https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Winston_Churchill#The_fascists_of_the_future_will_be_called_anti-fascists[/url][/QUOTE] Turns out whoever said it was right.
Question. Who in the Western world today is even in a majority government position that self-identifies, or produces the policies of an antifascist? The current political climate of the West is a bunch of plutocrats doing backroom deals for political favors at the expense of common people, left or right. That's not very antifascist. Maybe you'll find people paying populist lip service in order to get votes from left-wing people but that would be like calling Trump anti-establishment because he said some campaign rhetoric and then when elected went on to appoint establishment politicians in his whole cabinet. Saying one thing but doing the other. I think the antifascism angle is a total red herring when you have legitimate, straightforward fascism on the rise to worry about, who are actually in several governments already.
[QUOTE=Jim Morrison;51480278]Question. Who in the Western world today is even in a majority government position that self-identifies, or produces the policies of an antifascist? The current political climate of the West is a bunch of plutocrats doing backroom deals for political favors at the expense of common people, left or right. That's not very antifascist. Maybe you'll find people paying populist lip service in order to get votes from left-wing people but that would be like calling Trump anti-establishment because he said some campaign rhetoric and then when elected went on to appoint establishment politicians in his whole cabinet. Saying one thing but doing the other. I think the antifascism angle is total red herring when you have legitimate, straightforward fascism on the rise to worry about, who are actually in several governments already.[/QUOTE] It's the same thing that has always happened with politics. Point to anything but genuine economic solutions. Because there are none. At least, none that would be in any way pleasant for the majority of people. The modern 'empires' of the west are on a long slow track to fall down, like any other old empire. It's what happens. Empires grow too big to sustain, and then they collapse or retreat. It's unfortunate but it's hard to refute centuries of historical evidence. And no-one wants to admit it, because it's really scary to think about America or England or whoever not being the major powers of the world, and just being bit player countries. But over a long enough period of time it's guaranteed to happen
[QUOTE=strayebyrd;51480656]It's the same thing that has always happened with politics. Point to anything but genuine economic solutions. Because there are none. At least, none that would be in any way pleasant for the majority of people. The modern 'empires' of the west are on a long slow track to fall down, like any other old empire. It's what happens. Empires grow too big to sustain, and then they collapse or retreat. It's unfortunate but it's hard to refute centuries of historical evidence. And no-one wants to admit it, because it's really scary to think about America or England or whoever not being the major powers of the world, and just being bit player countries. But over a long enough period of time it's guaranteed to happen[/QUOTE] I recently started reading a [URL="http://people.uncw.edu/kozloffm/glubb.pdf"]very interesting book[/URL] about this very topic, written in the 1970s by a veteran in the British Royal Engineers about the rise and fall of empires. Pretty much every major world power in history from the Assyrians to the Greeks to the Persians has gone through the same sequence of rise and fall with similar ages of military expansion, to commerce, then affluence, knowledge and a slow decline that averages a 250 year lifespan of an empire. There's a whole list of empires that have followed this trend and it's a bit shocking when it's all laid out like that. The breakup of America as the foremost world power is likely to happen in our lifetime, especially as more and more people rally against its corrupt government as we are seeing happen now, even in a misguided action in the form of Trump.
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;51479171]People shouting pepe will be just the demographic I described. It's also not an SJW thing to say that the alt-right has those elements within certain subgroups. I don't know how what glenn beck said is related at all to SJWs either. Or is ANY suggestion of ethical and moral conduct PC culture gone mad?[/QUOTE] I'm proving to you that the attitude I described in my post above doesn't only happen on the internet. And it doesn't necessarily have to involve SJWs or PC so I don't know why you are changing this into a discussion about SJWs when I haven't mentioned them.
[QUOTE=Jim Morrison;51480811]I recently started reading a [URL="http://people.uncw.edu/kozloffm/glubb.pdf"]very interesting book[/URL] about this very topic, written in the 1970s by a veteran in the British Royal Engineers about the rise and fall of empires. Pretty much every major world power in history from the Assyrians to the Greeks to the Persians has gone through the same sequence of rise and fall with similar ages of military expansion, to commerce, then affluence, knowledge and a slow decline that averages a 250 year lifespan of an empire. There's a whole list of empires that have followed this trend and it's a bit shocking when it's all laid out like that. The breakup of America as the foremost world power is likely to happen in our lifetime, especially as more and more people rally against its corrupt government as we are seeing happen now, even in a misguided action in the form of Trump.[/QUOTE] That sounds really interesting, I'll be sure to give it a read, cheers! Yeah like I say, it seems to be the one thing no one wants to talk about. Countries like America and the UK don't look like they're going to be able to climb out from the sea of debt they've accrued. We're talking about trillions of dollars, and kicking all the immigrants out, or banning guns, or fighting against the lefties or the righties isn't gonna do dick in solving that problem. It seems like China or India might be the next places to take the mantle. Here's hoping that they end up running things in an alright way
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