[BBC] Zoe Quinn talks about Gamergate. "Big Firms Must Condemn Gamergate"
266 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Devodiere;46366979]Yeah, it is the market that decides most of that shit, because they put a fuckload of money into it and are going to take the safest most market-research approved path possible. Everyone except them knows how shit it usually turns out, but they think it's safe.
So how exactly is them taking the safe route misogyny? They didn't pick it, that's just the audience who buys their games and there's no intention or even room for prejudice in that kind of sterile market analysis. Is it misogynistic simply because it doesn't have tokenism?[/QUOTE]
It's sexist, not misogynistic. Throwing up your hands and saying the market won't support anything that isn't beefy white guys is an awful way to think.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;46366966]in my experience the character's content is more important than their skin, and john marston was a pretty good character, as I recall
i mean if you didn't think they were good characters I don't think changing their gender would help
[editline]30th October 2014[/editline]
I don't really see what's wrong with escapist fantasies, pretty much everyone has them[/QUOTE]
I think there's a diff between escapist fantasy and a power fantasy. IMO very few protags fit the stereotypical "male power fantasy" where you get all the girls and kill all the monsters etc. More recently, a lot of male protagonists are just destructive beacons of tired cynicism. Look at Max Payne, TLoU etc. That's definitely not a power fantasy.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;46366990]Both GTA V and RDR have ambient rape scenes that just sort of happen in the open world. GTA V female characters all seem to slot in to convenient awful gender roles.
Let me be upfront and say I haven't played either. But I'm gonna get GTA V when it comes out on steam.[/QUOTE]
I haven't played GTA V, but I don't remember anything like "ambient rape scenes" in RDR
but, surely the sexist thing would be to depict that time without any mention of the rape that most definitely happened on a regular basis, thereby sterilizing and whitewashing history
Max Payne is certainly a power fantasy. Those games are noir as fuck.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;46366990]Both GTA V and RDR have ambient rape scenes that just sort of happen in the open world. GTA V female characters all seem to slot in to convenient awful gender roles.
Let me be upfront and say I haven't played either. But I'm gonna get GTA V when it comes out on steam.[/QUOTE]
And both, like Max Payne 3's sex slave scene could be interpreted and likely is a criticism of the behaviour displayed.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;46366990]Both GTA V and RDR have ambient rape scenes that just sort of happen in the open world. GTA V female characters all seem to slot in to convenient awful gender roles.
Let me be upfront and say I haven't played either. But I'm gonna get GTA V when it comes out on steam.[/QUOTE]
How the hell can you say any of that with any certainty if you haven't played either game? what's an "ambient rape scene"? How does said scene make the game inherently misogynistic?
[editline]30th October 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Lambeth;46367013]Max Payne is certainly a power fantasy. Those games are noir as fuck.[/QUOTE]
You got me bro, I do fantisize about being a massive fuck up who always think I can save the day but in reality my deep rooted alcoholism just makes everything worse.
It's practically a deconstruction of the damsel in distress trope. Calling it a power fantasy is literally the most wrong thing you could have said.
[QUOTE=G-Strogg;46367004]I think there's a diff between escapist fantasy and a power fantasy. IMO very few protags fit the stereotypical "male power fantasy" where you get all the girls and kill all the monsters etc. More recently, a lot of male protagonists are just destructive beacons of tired cynicism. Look at Max Payne, TLoU etc. That's definitely not a power fantasy.[/QUOTE]
Not everyone wants to be James Bond. Lots of people prefer the gruff loner who doesn't play by anyone's rules but his own. It's not a knock against the game or the story, that's just how things do.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;46367012]I haven't played GTA V, but I don't remember anything like "ambient rape scenes" in RDR
but, surely the sexist thing would be to depict that time without any mention of the rape that most definitely happened on a regular basis, thereby sterilizing and whitewashing history[/QUOTE]
You can mention it or allude to it or whatever but do we need to have a rape animation in our games? Why is there an absolute need to have these things in the game?
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;46367025]Not everyone wants to be James Bond. Lots of people prefer the gruff loner who doesn't play by anyone's rules but his own. It's not a knock against the game or the story, that's just how things do.[/QUOTE]
Ultimately those people will pick and choose what they like about the character and what they don't. Friend of mine love Max Payne's cynicism, but he's not dreaming about shooting up brazilian favelas while watching people being burned in front of him.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;46367003]It's sexist, not misogynistic. Throwing up your hands and saying the market won't support anything that isn't beefy white guys is an awful way to think.[/QUOTE]
i don't think anyone is saying that
they're just saying it isn't sexist for artists to make things they know people will buy, that's just good sense
[QUOTE=Lambeth;46366990][B]Both GTA V and RDR have ambient rape scenes that just sort of happen in the open world[/B]. GTA V female characters all seem to slot in to convenient awful gender roles.
Let me be upfront and say I haven't played either. But I'm gonna get GTA V when it comes out on steam.[/QUOTE]
What? I'm finding it hard to believe that there's people being raped on the street and it didn't even get a mention in the ESRB rating, it doesn't even mention anything about sexual violence.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;46367003]It's sexist, not misogynistic. Throwing up your hands and saying the market won't support anything that isn't beefy white guys is an awful way to think.[/QUOTE]
That's not what I said and you didn't really answer how it was sexist. How is simply being a reflection of your audience rather than taking a stand for a cause sexist? Why are they expected to throw in token characters if their audience doesn't want it just to prove that they're not sexist when it proves nothing but that they included a token character?
[QUOTE=G-Strogg;46367031]Ultimately those people will pick and choose what they like about the character and what they don't. Friend of mine love Max Payne's cynicism, but he's not dreaming about shooting up brazilian favelas while watching people being burned in front of him.[/QUOTE]
I think we have different ideas of how fantasies work. Personally I don't fantasize only about things I want to do in real life.
[QUOTE=G-Strogg;46367015]How the hell can you say any of that with any certainty if you haven't played either game? what's an "ambient rape scene"? How does said scene make the game inherently misogynistic?
[/QUOTE]
random things happening in open world games are called ambient events are they not? so a rape scene that happens randomly in the open worl is called a ambient rape scene, no?
I can say these things because people have shot video, taken screenshots, written about it. It makes that particular part of the game pretty gross and sexist in my eyes. I still don't get why it needs to be in the game. Because it also happens in the real world?
[QUOTE=Lambeth;46367028]You can mention it or allude to it or whatever but do we need to have a rape animation in our games? Why is there an absolute need to have these things in the game?[/QUOTE]
media itself is unneeded, it and all of the things it is made of are equally unnecessary
if someone put something like that into the game I imagine they did so because they believed it enforced the atmosphere they attempted to create, which I imagine is the same reason behind the existence of all ambient elements in the game.
in the thirties they asked why anyone needed to show a toilet in a movie with much the same tone
[QUOTE=Lambeth;46367028]You can mention it or allude to it or whatever but do we need to have a rape animation in our games? Why is there an absolute need to have these things in the game?[/QUOTE]
why do we having killing in our games? is there an absolute need to have these things in the game?
games should be able to explore adult themes such as violence (sexual and physical), racism and inequality because these things can relate excellently to reality.
saying "you're not allowed to have rape in the game" is pretty much saying "youre not allowed anything that i might find offensive".
[QUOTE=Lambeth;46367050]random things happening in open world games are called ambient events are they not? so a rape scene that happens randomly in the open worl is called a ambient rape scene, no?
I can say these things because people have shot video, taken screenshots, written about it. It makes that particular part of the game pretty gross and sexist in my eyes. I still don't get why it needs to be in the game. Because it also happens in the real world?[/QUOTE]
if the game is attempting to depict the 1800's as they were and rape was a common and important part of that region during the 1800's, then I don't see why it's unjustified to include it
if you really think it's that disgusting you could always shoot the rapist you know
[QUOTE=Lambeth;46367050]random things happening in open world games are called ambient events are they not? so a rape scene that happens randomly in the open worl is called a ambient rape scene, no?
I can say these things because people have shot video, taken screenshots, written about it. It makes that particular part of the game pretty gross and sexist in my eyes. I still don't get why it needs to be in the game. Because it also happens in the real world?[/QUOTE]
Having played both games I can tell you there are no ambient rape scenes in either. As someone above me mentioned, there's practically no sexual violence. Maybe allusions to it, but nothing explicit.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;46367032]i don't think anyone is saying that
they're just saying it isn't sexist for artists to make things they know people will buy, that's just good sense[/QUOTE]
Well that's what I keep reading. it's some sort of weird feedback loop between the audience and the developers. The audience isn't sexist but developers can't make a game with a female protagonist because it won't sell because...the audience isn't sexist?
[editline]30th October 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=stealth_camo;46367053]why do we having killing in our games? is there an absolute need to have these things in the game?[/QUOTE]
Nope. Next question?
[QUOTE=Lambeth;46367065]Well that's what I keep reading. it's some sort of weird feedback loop between the audience and the developers. The audience isn't sexist but developers can't make a game with a female protagonist because it won't sell because...the audience isn't sexist?[/QUOTE]
Are you even reading? They put in a male protagonist because market research says a male audience identifies better with a male main character, and they've put enough money into it that they want to maximise market potential.
So what's your issue? That they didn't put a female character in anyway just because diversity? Do you object to there being a male audience? Is it the fact that men identify better with men and you think they shouldn't?
[QUOTE=G-Strogg;46367060]Having played both games I can tell you there are no ambient rape scenes in either. As someone above me mentioned, there's practically no sexual violence. Maybe allusions to it, but nothing explicit.[/QUOTE]
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1scrloKXgTo]A cursory youtube suggests otherwise[/url]
[QUOTE=Lambeth;46367065]Well that's what I keep reading. it's some sort of weird feedback loop between the audience and the developers. The audience isn't sexist but developers can't make a game with a female protagonist because it won't sell because...the audience isn't sexist?
[editline]30th October 2014[/editline]
Nope. Next question?[/QUOTE]
Get over yourself already, there are a lot of game with female protagonists. The games you refer to are a very specific type of AAA western games. There's a lot of diversity to be found if you just look.
[editline]30th October 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Lambeth;46367079][url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1scrloKXgTo]A cursory youtube suggests otherwise[/url][/QUOTE]
That's not a rape scene, it's part of the "ambient story" I guess. The footage clearly shows he's restraining her, so it's a kidnapping. [sp]The altruistic cult are p much cannibals so thats whats happening.[/sp]
I'm not saying rape can't be presented or discussed in video games (Gone Home and Fallout: New Vegas did it rather well) but the way rockstar did it was gross and unnecessary.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;46367094]I'm not saying rape can't be presented or discussed in video games (Gone Home and Fallout: New Vegas did it rather well) but the way rockstar did it was gross and unnecessary.[/QUOTE]
except they didn't, and you would know that if you had played the game and known the context behind the scene
seriously it's so obvious that the only thing making this look like anything lewd is the camera angle, he's clearly just restraining her
[QUOTE=G-Strogg;46367080]
That's not a rape scene, it's part of the "ambient story" I guess. The footage clearly shows he's restraining her, so it's a kidnapping. [sp]The altruistic cult are p much cannibals so thats whats happening.[/sp][/QUOTE]
Looooks a lot like rape.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;46367102]Looooks a lot like rape.[/QUOTE]
yeah, because of the camera angle
the animation is him tying her up, nothing more. Unless tying a woman up while partially nude counts as rape now
Well I guess I'll ignore my normal reaction of a naked man holding down a young woman. It's just part of the plot, that makes it excusable.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;46367113]Well I guess I'll ignore my normal reaction of a naked man holding down a young woman. It's just part of the plot, that makes it excusable.[/QUOTE]
maybe it would be in your best interest to ignore your normal reaction of jumping to conclusions when you lack sufficient information
[QUOTE=Lambeth;46367094]I'm not saying rape can't be presented or discussed in video games (Gone Home and Fallout: New Vegas did it rather well) but the way rockstar did it was gross and unnecessary.[/QUOTE]
Well, you need to consider context. I haven't played RDR or GTAV, but in RDR I get the impression that they wanted to potray a realistic depiction of life in the wild west, and yes, rape did happen in that period of time so if there are any rape scenes, then that is okay as long as it isin't portrayed as the best thing ever or whatever, and as long as it's respectful to the historical context.
Same with GTAV, that game is a dark comedy that satarises american culture, while trying to tell a meaningfull story.
If games are to be taken seriously as a medium, they need to be allowed to discuss, and to certain extends [I]show[/I] rape... and like with so many other things, there is a right way of doing it and a wrong way.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;46367079][url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1scrloKXgTo]A cursory youtube suggests otherwise[/url][/QUOTE]
They're a bunch of weirdo naked cannibal people, in that particular instance, kidnapping a woman. You can also deliver people to them for them to eat, 5 males and 5 women in total are the possibilities. Thats the problem with cursory glances on youtube at things, you don't get the full information or context.
In one scene GTA V has allusions to male on male rape, so is the game now Misandrist?
Stop trying to say stuff as if you know the context behind it when you haven't even played the games.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;46367118]maybe it would be in your best interest to ignore your normal reaction of jumping to conclusions when you lack sufficient information[/QUOTE]
I guess the important thing to take away from this is that Rockstar has shitty writers.
[editline]30th October 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=RayvenQ;46367129]They're a bunch of weirdo naked cannibal people, in that particular instance, kidnapping a woman. You can also deliver people to them for them to eat, 5 males and 5 women in total are the possibilities.
In one scene GTA V has allusions to male on male rape, so is the game now Misandrist?
Stop trying to say stuff as if you know the context behind it when you haven't even played the games.[/QUOTE]
Boy I really can't wait to buy this game so I can accurately say how and why certain parts of it are bad.
Like the gameplay. And the multiplayer.
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