[BBC] Zoe Quinn talks about Gamergate. "Big Firms Must Condemn Gamergate"
266 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Lambeth;46367130]I guess the important thing to take away from this is that Rockstar has shitty writers.[/QUOTE]
How would you know, you haven't even played the damn games. "I've never played a game but [I]heard[/I] it's X that I don't like, must be shitty writing." If you're going to argue against something, at least be informed about what you're arguing again.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;46367130]I guess the important thing to take away from this is that Rockstar has shitty writers.[/QUOTE]
uh
I disagree, I thought RDR was pretty good, some small issues aside
I don't see how any of this has reflected badly on their writers
[QUOTE=RayvenQ;46367134]How would you know, you haven't even played the damn games. "I've never played a game but [I]heard[/I] it's X that I don't like, must be shitty writing."[/QUOTE]
I own every GTA game that has been released on steam.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;46367137]I own every GTA game that has been released on steam.[/QUOTE]
but you're talking about RDR not GTA 4 and earlier (not sure which games are on steam but i know 5 isnt)
and that means you haven't played gta 5 either
[QUOTE=Lambeth;46367130]Boy I really can't wait to buy this game so I can accurately say how and why certain parts of it are bad.
Like the gameplay. And the multiplayer.[/QUOTE]
well if you go into a game assuming it's bad then I imagine you won't enjoy it, just like how you would hate any movie, song, or book you go into expecting to hate
[QUOTE=Lambeth;46367137]I own every GTA game that has been released on steam.[/QUOTE]
Two of the games you argued about, aren't on PC yet, and you admitted you haven't played it.
Sure, the are valid concerns about misogyny in games, but when you act like you know it all and you haven't played the games, but act like you're an authority on whats in the games in question, you tend to weaken your position.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;46367140]well if you go into a game assuming it's bad then I imagine you won't enjoy it, just like how you would hate any movie, song, or book you go into expecting to hate[/QUOTE]
I've hear it's really good but also it's really bad. Guess I'll find out for myself!
[editline]30th October 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=ThatSprite;46367138]but you're talking about RDR not GTA 4 and earlier (not sure which games are on steam but i know 5 isnt)
and that means you haven't played gta 5 either[/QUOTE]
Yes you got me I haven't played either of those games. But I guess I can draw conclusions on them because I can draw upon this pile of video games that came before GTA 5 and RDR.
[editline]30th October 2014[/editline]
If you buy me a xbox and a copy of RDR I'll totally play it though.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;46367146]Yes you got me I haven't played either of those games. But I guess I can draw conclusions on them because I can draw upon this pile of video games that came before GTA 5 and RDR.[/QUOTE]
Or, you know, you could judge the game on its own content rather than labelling it something to suit your agenda because of previous videogames, especialy when you're trying to say that the games have content that they just don't have.
[QUOTE=Muggi;46366903]What do you mean when you say "not to be misogynistic"? I have a hard time recalling any game that was actually misogynistic.
If by misygonistic you mean, "there are not as many women in gaming as I would like" then you have misunderstood what that word means.
And yes, it would be nice if we had more diverse leads but in the end it's up to the game developers to decide who they want as a protagonist. If they want a white, straight, male as a protagonist, that is their right. Don't go and demand quotas and shit for how many stronk female leads have to be in a publishers yearly lineup, because that won't give you any interesting and well written characters, hell it will do the opposite since it's hard carring for something you are forced to do.[/QUOTE]
No its more than that.
Its the roles the characters play. Female characters are used as items or objectives rather than people. The fact that they are helpless and captured is their defining feature, just an item for you to acquire from the bad guy. It normalises the situation of a woman being helpless and in need of a strong man to help her and teaches this to young boys and girls. There is a little more to it than that but that is the gist of it.
The fact that you seem to be making more about [b]You must have all main characters female[/b] is a strawman, intentionally or otherwise and it missing the point, either by not truly understanding the situation or purposefully obfuscating the argument to make your viewpoint an easier one to defend.
You don't need a "strong female character" to not be sexist you just need to stop typifying females as inherently weaker, less able and dependant on men.
[QUOTE=RayvenQ;46367167]Or, you know, you could judge the game on its own content rather than labelling it something to suit your agenda because of previous videogames, especialy when you're trying to say that the games have content that they just don't have.[/QUOTE]
My agenda is letting the world know that rockstar needs to get better writers. Niko Bellic was a terrible lead.
Also the content is there. I just label it a different thing than you do.
[editline]30th October 2014[/editline]
Go on defend niko bellic as a well written character, I dare you.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;46367113]Well I guess I'll ignore my normal reaction of a naked man holding down a young woman. It's just part of the plot, that makes it excusable.[/QUOTE]
So why is a depiction of rape acceptable in film but in games its a horrible slight against your reality?
[QUOTE=Lambeth;46367177]My agenda is letting the world know that rockstar needs to get better writers. Niko Bellic was a terrible lead.
Also the content is there. I just label it a different thing than you do.[/QUOTE]
The writing has improved since GTA4 actually, and Niko wasn't that badly written, (Although Roman was a terrible character).
Yeah you label things differently, like labelling something a Rape scene when it's not when you've not even played the games and your only source is youtube videos with titles with that have that word in it when it's the uploader that has decided it to name it that based on their misunderstanding of the scene. Though I can see how people would assume a naked old guy trying to kidnap a woman would appear to seem like that to people.
[quote]Well I guess I'll ignore my normal reaction of a naked man holding down a young woman. It's just part of the plot, that makes it excusable.[/quote]
Except they're kidnapping her to eat her, it's not part of the main plot, it's part of a series of side missions involving a cannibal cult composed of crazy old naked men who eat people. Again, context, seeing just that scene is one thing, but knowing the context to that scene and the context of the cult, is another. And like I said, as part of the side quest, you have 10 people to choose from to send to the cult, half of them are men and the other half women.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;46367177]My agenda is letting the world know that rockstar needs to get better writers. Niko Bellic was a terrible lead.
Also the content is there. I just label it a different thing than you do.
[editline]30th October 2014[/editline]
Go on defend niko bellic as a well written character, I dare you.[/QUOTE]
Leads are never good in R* games, they tend to just be a plot device that connects you to the world around them. In GTA 4's case you had Roman, Little Jacob, Elizebeth, Dimetri etc etc Although to be fair Roman was also a bad character who's actions introduced other more interesting characters.
[QUOTE=dilzinyomouth;46367200]So why is a depiction of rape acceptable in film but in games its a horrible slight against your reality?[/QUOTE]
Well I guess that depends on how the rape was presented in the film
[QUOTE=Lambeth;46367177]My agenda is letting the world know that rockstar needs to get better writers. Niko Bellic was a terrible lead.
Also the content is there. I just label it a different thing than you do.
[editline]30th October 2014[/editline]
Go on defend niko bellic as a well written character, I dare you.[/QUOTE]
Nice deflecting. Are you going to spout more stupid shit about games you haven't played yet or will you just admit that you were wrong?
[QUOTE=RayvenQ;46367203]Though I can see how people would assume a naked old guy trying to kidnap a woman would appear to seem like that to people.[/QUOTE]
Most people who aren't used to video game abstractions would probably think that way.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;46367213]Well I guess that depends on how the rape was presented in the film[/QUOTE]
So rapes in movies are acceptable to you as long as they're depicted how you would like them?
[editline]30th October 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Lambeth;46367219]Most people who aren't used to video game abstractions would probably think that way.[/QUOTE]
Except when you rescue the woman, in the game, she says they were trying to kidnap her, not rape her, which you'd have known if you played the game.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;46367137]I own every GTA game that has been released on steam.[/QUOTE]
If Rockstar has shitty writers, why did you buy every game they made. You're not required to like things, you know. It's ok to say "I'll pass".
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;46367172]No its more than that.
Its the roles the characters play. Female characters are used as items or objectives rather than people. The fact that they are helpless and captured is their defining feature, just an item for you to acquire from the bad guy. It normalises the situation of a woman being helpless and in need of a strong man to help her and teaches this to young boys and girls. There is a little more to it than that but that is the gist of it.
The fact that you seem to be making more about [B]You must have all main characters female[/B] is a strawman, intentionally or otherwise and it missing the point, either by not truly understanding the situation or purposefully obfuscating the argument to make your viewpoint an easier one to defend.
You don't need a "strong female character" to not be sexist you just need to stop typifying females as inherently weaker, less able and dependant on men.[/QUOTE]
Well, in that case, are fairy tales like "Sleeping Beauty" or "Little Red Riding Hood" misogynistic? After all, both stories involve a female being saved by a male in some fashion.
And, at the same time, are you saying that just because video games have damsels in distress, like other media throughout history, that this somehow influences boys and girls to look down on women in general? If that is the case, then Jack Thompsons claim that violent video games influence people to be murderous assholes would also have to be true.
I have played video games for, oh, close to 19 years now. I don't consider myself a misogynist nor a violent person. I have never met a person, online or in real life, who have been a misogynist because of video games.
I would also like to point out that I myself support more diversity in video game characters, as I thought I made clear in my post. I'm tired of the cliche manly man character. It's lazy writing, NOT misogynistic. And I think the claim that it somehow brainwashes people to look down on women is absurd.
You could also argue that the damsel in distress cliche is supposed to be a metaphor for how much the captured person actually means to the protagonist, in that they are willing to brave all sorts of dangers to rescue them, that the realtionship between the two are so strong that it makes the protagonist capable of beating overwhelming odds.
I'm personally tired of that particular kind of plot, but again, I don't see it as being misogynistic.
In the end, I would say that context, really is key.
[QUOTE=G-Strogg;46367223]If Rockstar has shitty writers, why did you buy every game they made. You're not required to like things, you know. It's ok to say "I'll pass".[/QUOTE]
Because I am capable of liking some parts of the games while not liking other parts.
[editline]30th October 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=RayvenQ;46367221]So rapes in movies are acceptable to you as long as they're depicted how you would like them?[/QUOTE]
I guess so? Like if there was movie that presented a pov view of a dude raping a girl I would be pretty fucking disgusted. I'm just saying I trying to not make blanket statements and instead opt to interpret on a case by case basis.
[editline]30th October 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Zet;46367217]Nice deflecting. Are you going to spout more stupid shit about games you haven't played yet or will you just admit that you were wrong?[/QUOTE]
What are you saying that I can't talk about things that I haven't experienced first hand? I guess I can't ever talk about the holocaust then.
[QUOTE=Muggi;46367224]Well, in that case, are fairy tales like "Sleeping Beauty" or "Little Red Riding Hood" misogynistic? After all, both stories involve a female being saved by a male in some fashion.
And, at the same time, are you saying that just because video games have damsels in distress, like other media throughout history, that this somehow influences boys and girls to look down on women in general? If that is the case, then Jack Thompsons claim that violent video games influence people to be murderous assholes would also have to be true.
I have played video games for, oh, close to 19 years now. I don't consider myself a misogynist nor a violent person. I have never met a person, online or in real life, who have been a misogynist because of video games.
I would also like to point out that I myself support more diversity in video game characters, as I thought I made clear in my post. I'm tired of the cliche manly man character. It's lazy writing, NOT misogynistic. And I think the claim that it somehow brainwashes people to look down on women is absurd.[/QUOTE]
Yes I would say sleeping beauty is misogynistic, at least passively so. Disney is well known for sexist and conservative values. One reason Mulan and Frozen are so popular is because they break those moulds.
You mention killing and say "Im not a murderer ,', games don't teach us how to act" this is true but it does normalise that behaviour. Guys will be more likely expect girls to be dependant and weak because that is how they are portrayed in various media, it doesn't make you go outside and say "I'ma gunna beat up some pussy" its a more subtle thing of "girls expect me to help them because they cannot do it themselves" I expect you will bring up the point about murder again so I'll address it primitively. Murder is not normal, you generally don't want to do it and if you do you will be punished. The situation is different for sexism, for possibly thousands of years, we in europe have indoctrined generation after generation gender roles, specifically man strong, woman weak. Those games are just helping that filthy practice to keep on propagating.
And I agree it is lazy writing. People see a script which has worked and think "why change it" but it doesn't take much to change it. You could change the characters, have someone save a younger sibling or an elderly relative.
It is sad that outdated and backward traditions (gender roles/sexism, homophobia) are still enforced, albeit in some cases subconsciously, today.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;46367233]What are you saying that I can't talk about things that I haven't experienced first hand?[/QUOTE]
I never once said that, but you're just making up claims instead of finding out if it's true or not. I could watch one episode of your favourite TV show and start making shit up. Should I come out and admit I was wrong, or just carry on making up uninformed crap?
[QUOTE=Zet;46367279]I never once said that, but you're just making up claims instead of finding out if it's true or not. I could watch one episode of your favourite TV show and start making shit up. Should I come out and admit I was wrong, or just carry on making up uninformed crap?[/QUOTE]
There is a difference between making things up and having a different interpretation. Like I still think that scene is pretty rapey even though I've been told that it's a weird cult thing.
To add to that, I didn't mean to make a strawman argument by using the quota example in that post, I was just voicing my concern for what might happen if that were to become a reality, since many people on the other side of the argument use language that make it seem like they wouldn't mind a system like that.
I think creative freedom is incredibly important, and even though I might personally find one artists vision questionable, I will defend his right to express himself in his own way.
[QUOTE=stealth_camo;46366873]they are making games for their demographic
economically speaking aiming for different people now would be a terrible decision on their behalf. why make a game that your main buyers are not interested in and the new market you're aiming for might not even buy?[/QUOTE]
I feel a bit like, you don't go asking a soda company to start making whine because there are people that want more refined things to drink.
I think it's silly to ask all these existing companies that make games for a certain demographic to make games for a demographic they don't have much experience with. If you want more games being made for girls, you're a lot more likely to succeed by either supporting the companies that already do make games that girls tend to like, or by starting new companies specializing in these games.
I don't think these companies are making games for male audiences because they don't want girls to buy their product, rather they're making games for male audiences because they don't know how to make the kind of product that girls would be willing to buy.
[editline]30th October 2014[/editline]
When these soda making companies are pushed to make something for the refined all we get is whine flavored soda, and nobody wants whine flavored soda.
[QUOTE=Muggi;46367290]To add to that, I didn't mean to make a strawman argument by using the quota example in that post, I was just voicing my concern for what might happen if that were to become a reality, since many people on the other side of the argument use language that make it seem like they wouldn't mind a system like that.
I think creative freedom is incredibly important, and even though I might personally find one artists vision questionable, I will defend his right to express himself in his own way.[/QUOTE]
Yeah I'm not gonna stop rockstar from making video games but I am gonna point something out if I find it problematic.
[editline]30th October 2014[/editline]
Dear Rockstar, please add less rapey bits in your next video game
love lambeth
I don't know why anyone should give a fuck about Gamergate as it is now, it got somehow twisted into a feminist issue and is now 50% trolls and 50% enraged Tumblr 'activists' - Anything that has most of its public discourse in the form of a hashtag should be disregarded anyway. All you have to do is not visit Kotaku.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;46367275]Yes I would say sleeping beauty is misogynistic, at least passively so. Disney is well known for sexist and conservative values. One reason Mulan and Frozen are so popular is because they break those moulds.
You mention killing and say "Im not a murderer ,', games don't teach us how to act" this is true but it does normalise that behaviour. Guys will be more likely expect girls to be dependant and weak because that is how they are portrayed in various media, it doesn't make you go outside and say "I'ma gunna beat up some pussy" its a more subtle thing of "girls expect me to help them because they cannot do it themselves" I expect you will bring up the point about murder again so I'll address it primitively. Murder is not normal, you generally don't want to do it and if you do you will be punished. The situation is different for sexism, for possibly thousands of years, we in europe have indoctrined generation after generation gender roles, specifically man strong, woman weak. Those games are just helping that filthy practice to keep on propagating.
And I agree it is lazy writing. People see a script which has worked and think "why change it" but it doesn't take much to change it. You could change the characters, have someone save a younger sibling or an elderly relative.
It is sad that outdated and backward traditions (gender roles/sexism, homophobia) are still enforced, albeit in some cases subconsciously, today.[/QUOTE]
I would then retort by saying, that in the modern world looking down on anybody, whether they be people of a different race or sex, is considered abnormal since there has been a huge push for equality for the past 50 odd years. The teaching that everyone is equal is seen throughout our education system and collective modern values. That a few people still live in the middle ages in that regard is a problem, but they are a minority. And, if you behave like that, you usually get punished in one way or other, whether that be social shunning or a fine depending on the seriousness of the behavior.
I would also like to bring up the point, again, that context is key. You see the damsel in distress cliche as an objectification of women. I would argue that it could also be seen as a metaphor for the strong bond between the protagonist and the kidnapped person in question. Would Mario really put himself through hell just for an object, like a pot of gold? Or, is it critical that it is an actual person that he tries to save, someone he has a personal relationship with?
[QUOTE=Muggi;46367347]I would then retort by saying, that in the modern world looking down on anybody, whether they be people of a different race or sex, is considered abnormal since there has been a huge push for equality for the past 50 odd years. The teaching that everyone is equal is seen throughout our education system and collective modern values. That a few people still live in the middle ages in that regard is a problem, but they are a minority. And, if you behave like that, you usually get punished in one way or other, whether that be social shunning or a fine depending on the seriousness of the behavior.
I would also like to bring up the point, again, that context is key. You see the damsel in distress cliche as an objectification of women. I would argue that it could also be seen as a metaphor for the strong bond between the protagonist and the kidnapped person in question. Would Mario really put himself through hell just for an object, like a pot of gold? Or, is it critical that it is an actual person that he tries to save, someone he has a personal relationship with?[/QUOTE]
I get what you're saying but your example is awful. Witcher 2 would be better.
All I remember about super mario plot is that generally bowser did a bad thing and mario has to stop him.
I'm obviously reading to much in to Marios plot, but it's just for the sake of using an easily recognisable game franchise, that is notorius for using that specific cliche.
[editline]30th October 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Lambeth;46367382]I get what you're saying but your example is awful. Witcher 2 would be better.
All I remember about super mario plot is that generally bowser did a bad thing and mario has to If games (and media in general) help normalise that kind of behavior, why don't we see more reports of women being looked down on? stop If games (and media in general) help normalise that kind of behavior, why don't we see more reports of women being looked down on? him.[/QUOTE]
Aye, I agree, but it was just sort of the number one game that springs to mind when I think of that specific cliche, and it's a franchise everyone knows.
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