[BBC] Zoe Quinn talks about Gamergate. "Big Firms Must Condemn Gamergate"
266 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Muggi;46367347]I would then retort by saying, that in the modern world looking down on anybody, whether they be people of a different race or sex, is considered abnormal since there has been a huge push for equality for the past 50 odd years. The teaching that everyone is equal is seen throughout our education system and collective modern values. That a few people still live in the middle ages in that regard is a problem, but they are a minority.[/QUOTE]
Well I think sexism is still there, as is racism, at least in the communities I've lived in (middle class white myself being a relatively privileged class white male) . It can be small stuff. Eg when my girlfriend went out on nights out with her flatmates, they would never introduce her, this is a problem also mentioned by another girl I know, when my best mate drives and sees a bad woman driver he attributes it to "women drivers" rather than it being just a bad driver (my dad is the same). Often people will say "stupid woman" as if the woman part has some influence on her being stupid. Then theres gender roles. A girl sleeps with a bunch of guys and shes a slut, a guy sleeps with a bunch of girls hes a player. Girl who sleeps round is "unclean". Girl who works out is butch rather than just being fit.
Guys get shit as well, pressured into being manly, pressured into not showing weakness, pressured into being fit, pressured into being good at thing, expected to be able to drink loads, its less of a problem but it is still an issue. I have had depression and my dad has had cancer, there is barely any widespread report for males with those issues. My reason for wanting all of the issues gone is if I have kids I want them to have the best chance possible and not taught to be submissive or taught they must fill some role put upon them by society.
[quote]
I would also like to bring up the point, again, that context is key. You see the damsel in distress cliche as an objectification of women. I would argue that it could also be seen as a metaphor for the strong bond between the protagonist and the kidnapped person in question. Would Mario really put himself through hell just for an object, like a pot of gold? Or, is it critical that it is an actual person that he tries to save, someone he has a personal relationship with?[/quote]
I agree but a personal relationship could be a brother or sister. Instead its a princess, its implied there is some relationship between mario and peach. Its not about saving somebody because of relationship it is about "earning" the kiss/reward for saving the helpless princess, a dangerous lesson to teach kids. "If I do something for the girl I earn a kiss" "I'm a girl so I have to let the boy save me then reward them" I don't want my kids to be brought up with that mindset. It's damaging and gives both sexes an unrealistic perception of healthy relationships.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;46367320]Yeah I'm not gonna stop rockstar from making video games but I am gonna point something out if I find it problematic.
[editline]30th October 2014[/editline]
Dear Rockstar, please add less rapey bits in your next video game
love lambeth[/QUOTE]
Dear Rockstar, please add less stuff in that's not even in the game in the first place - Lambeth.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;46367275]
You mention killing and say "Im not a murderer ,', games don't teach us how to act" this is true but it does normalise that behaviour. Guys will be more likely expect girls to be dependant and weak because that is how they are portrayed in various media, it doesn't make you go outside and say "I'ma gunna beat up some pussy" its a more subtle thing of "girls expect me to help them because they cannot do it themselves" I expect you will bring up the point about murder again so I'll address it [b]primitively[/b]. Murder is not normal, you generally don't want to do it and if you do you will be punished. The situation is different for sexism, for possibly thousands of years, we in europe have indoctrined generation after generation gender roles, specifically man strong, woman weak. Those games are just helping that filthy practice to keep on propagating. [/QUOTE]
Guess you wanted to say "preemptively", but you said (and did) it primitively indeed. That's not how it works. Media does not 'help' propagate anything of the sort, otherwise example of normalizing violence would be true. And it isn't. Media doesn't teach and doesn't influence opinions that directly. Media reflects the expectation of the audience.
The failure of the argument in question can easily be demonstrated by reversing it. Why male characters are prevalent is understood - the gaming industry still operates under, indeed, outdated preconception that primary audience is overwhelmingly male. Female characters are often presented as an "object to save" (that's because [b]they are[/b] objects to save, being a plot device not any more than lead character is, regardless of gender characteristics) because that's the easiest and the most basic of motivations for male characters to do something. Because male character is a cardboard cutout that has no interest in life and all he cares about is the opposite sex and family, so to do ANYTHING of interest to the audience, he has to have a female placed in peril. To come up with anything better than that is too much of a hard work for a writer, it seems.
And despite this "misandrist" (which, according to Opera's auto-correct feature, isn't even a legitimate word) attitude towards male characters they are somehow perceived as somehow done better than female characters. When in fact all characters in basic narratives are done with exactly the same level of attention to detail, varying only in amount of time "on screen" they get, which in turn depends on the role they play in the plot.
And I don't understand how, while acknowledging gender roles being hurtful towards both genders, still manage to attribute issues with poor quality writing to misogyny.
[QUOTE=RayvenQ;46367412]Dear Rockstar, please add less stuff in that's not even in the game in the first place - Lambeth.[/QUOTE]
You admitted that the culty/cannibal scene could be read as rapey
[QUOTE=RayvenQ;46367203] Though I can see how people would assume a naked old guy trying to kidnap a woman would appear to seem like that to people.[/QUOTE]
So I'm not making things up, according to you.
Could be read as =/= actual or implied by the game developers.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;46367427]You admitted that the culty/cannibal scene could be read as rapey
So I'm not making things up, according to you.[/QUOTE]
The fact that you see something in some way that you don't like doesn't really concern anyone all that much. It's not a rape scene, end of story.
[QUOTE=RayvenQ;46367456]Could be read as =/= actual or implied by the game developers.[/QUOTE]
Creator of the work does not take sole ownership of the work. Whatever their intention me and other people heave read the scene that way.
Games should be allowed to have stuff that makes you feel uncomfortable. Do you want the rape of proserpina removed from art galleries, should all rape scenes in literature and film be dummied out? Bad things happen, simulated bad things might make you uncomfortable, but any creative medium should be allowed to feature them and be judged based on context and execution, not purely on content. We can't have this push for games as art and a push for games being sterile of things that are bad at the same time coming from the same people. It's a paradoxical ideology.
[QUOTE=echo78;46367473] any creative medium should be allowed to feature them and be judged based on context and execution, not purely on content.[/QUOTE]
This is exactly what I said earlier in the thread.
fuck the BBC, it's state funded so the only way to actually communicate with the cunts is to not pay your TV license.
[QUOTE=echo78;46367473]Games should be allowed to have stuff that makes you feel uncomfortable. Do you want the rape of proserpina removed from art galleries, should all rape scenes in literature and film be dummied out? Bad things happen, simulated bad things might make you uncomfortable, but any creative medium should be allowed to feature them and be judged based on context and execution, not purely on content. We can't have this push for games as art and a push for games being sterile of things that are bad at the same time coming from the same people. It's a paradoxical ideology.[/QUOTE]
Well because there's still a pretense amongst the industry that all games should be ultimately made for fun which means that whenever a game features a touchy subject like rape, people immediately think that it's wrong to use something like rape for the purposes of enjoyment. Now this is totally the wrong attitude to take because not all games are made for "fun" some are made to be poignant such as Spec Ops: The line, but until the industry actually acknowledges this, I wouldn't expect games to feature more challenging content for a while.
[QUOTE=Muggi;46367347]Would Mario really put himself through hell just for an object, like a pot of gold? Or, is it critical that it is an actual person that he tries to save, someone he has a personal relationship with?[/QUOTE]
Wario would. A character that does not in any way consider women a prize to be a won, truly one of the most progressive characters of this generation.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;46367464]Creator of the work does not take sole ownership of the work. Whatever their intention me and other people heave read the scene that way.[/QUOTE]
Then thats a problem on your end, not the game or the developer.
Thats like saying "This game is racist because one of the protagonists who is black is commiting crimes, therefore it's painting all black people as criminals."
The execution of it is, once you kill the guys trying to [I]kidnap[/I] the woman, she blatantly says "These crazy old men tried to kidnap me!" If you'd actually played the game, you'd know that. And then the further execution, once you run across the Cult itself, which you can do before or after that random event, is that they're a crazy old naked man cannibal cult.
Fun is analogous to enjoyment, I enjoyed schindlers list. It was fun to watch. You can cover dark subject matter while not just turning it into a slog.
[QUOTE=echo78;46367473]Games should be allowed to have stuff that makes you feel uncomfortable. Do you want the rape of proserpina removed from art galleries, should all rape scenes in literature and film be dummied out? Bad things happen, simulated bad things might make you uncomfortable, but any creative medium should be allowed to feature them and be judged based on context and execution, not purely on content. We can't have this push for games as art and a push for games being sterile of things that are bad at the same time coming from the same people. It's a paradoxical ideology.[/QUOTE]
how often have rape scenes in video-games been treated with the same finesse and sympathy as that statue because honestly I find the comparison thin to say the least.
[QUOTE=echo78;46367507]Fun is analogous to enjoyment, I enjoyed schindlers list. It was fun to watch. You can cover dark subject matter while not just turning it into a slog.[/QUOTE]
Schindler's List totally felt like a slog to me.
[QUOTE=The mouse;46367495]Well because there's still a pretense amongst the industry that all games should be ultimately made for fun which means that whenever a game features a touchy subject like rape, people immediately think that it's wrong to use something like rape for the purposes of enjoyment. Now this is totally the wrong attitude to take because not all games are made for "fun" some are made to be poignant such as Spec Ops: The line, but until the industry actually acknowledges this, I wouldn't expect games to feature more challenging content for a while.[/QUOTE]
I think a major problem is that everyone that doesn't play games seem to think games are solely made for kids and immature men, and therefor should not contain any moral values that might have a negative influence on them.
[QUOTE=Lonestriper;46367513]how often have rape scenes in video-games been treated with the same finesse and sympathy as that statue because honestly I find the comparison thin to say the least.[/QUOTE]
I can't say if they have or have not, but if they aren't ever given a chance they never will be.
[QUOTE=RayvenQ;46367501]Then thats a problem on your end, not the game or the developer.
Thats like saying "This game is racist because one of the protagonists who is black is commiting crimes, therefore it's painting all black people as criminals."
The execution of it is, once you kill the guys trying to [I]kidnap[/I] the woman, she blatantly says "These crazy old men tried to kidnap me!" If you'd actually played the game, you'd know that. And then the further execution, once you run across the Cult itself, which you can do before or after that random event, is that they're a crazy old naked man cannibal cult.[/QUOTE]
It's common for women to get kidnapped and then raped in the real world you know.
[editline]30th October 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Lonestriper;46367513]how often have rape scenes in video-games been treated with the same finesse and sympathy as that statue because honestly I find the comparison thin to say the least.[/QUOTE]
Gone Home and Fallout New Vegas once again are the only two that come to mind. Neither of them depict it directly though. Silent Hill 2 maybe?
[QUOTE=echo78;46367523]I can't say if they have or have not, but if they aren't ever given a chance they never will be.[/QUOTE]
completely agree. But it does mean they should be given the same rigorous criticism as any other art-form.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;46367528]It's common for women to get kidnapped and then raped in the real world you know.[/QUOTE]
It's common for men to get shot and killed in the real world, but I dont' see you arguing about men being reduced to nothing more than shooting targets in videogames.
Again, they're a fucking cannibal cult, they kidnap and then eat people, you can deliver people to them both male and female, in equal amounts.
You're calling it for misogynistic for you percieving it to be a rape scene, and yet you've stated yourself you don't mind similar scenes in films as long as they're done towards your taste.
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;46365510]Changing the name would be utterly pointless as the 'journalists' accused of corruption who have done their damnedest to smear GamerGater will just smear any attempt to expose their corruption.[/QUOTE]
Don't give it a name, just talk about journalistic integrity. Can't tarnish a name that doesn't exist.
And even more importantly, [B]don't talk about people, talk about the problems[/B]. I don't know if Zoe is a saint or an asshole deserving all the hate, but calling her names doesn't improve IGN's (example) journalistic integrity. Post about IGN/Gawker/etc.
How many mainstream videogames actually contain rape and doesn't treat it seriously?
No really, I'm curious. I can't think of any.
[QUOTE=RayvenQ;46367551]
You're calling it for misogynistic for you percieving it to be a rape scene, and yet you've stated yourself you don't mind similar scenes in films as long as they're done towards your taste.[/QUOTE]
Yes the presentation of a rape scene matters to me. just like the presentation of getting up in the morning does. or driving to work. How you present any event is incredibly important as people can read wildly different things if you change even the smallest details.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;46367567]Yes the presentation of a rape scene matters to me. just like the presentation of getting up in the morning does. or driving to work.[/QUOTE]
Sadly the presentation of the rape was infact a presentation of a crazy naked guy trying to get some dinner. Luckily you can keep talking circles around that and contradicting your own points until this thread reaches page 20 of the same argument and gets locked.
[QUOTE=Simski;46367560]How many mainstream videogames actually contain rape and doesn't treat it seriously?
No really, I'm curious. I can't think of any.[/QUOTE]
Saints Row 3 had a pretty scummy sidequest
[QUOTE=Lambeth;46367578]Saints Row 3 had a pretty scummy sidequest[/QUOTE]
Oh. I could imagine that.
What was it about?
[QUOTE=Simski;46367583]Oh. I could imagine that.
What was it about?[/QUOTE]
Human trafficking. It was pretty off tone from normal saints row, which is pretty gag-a-minute.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;46367598]Human trafficking. It was pretty off tone from normal saints row, which is pretty gag-a-minute.[/QUOTE]
Yeah that really sounds like a step in the wrong direction
[QUOTE=echo78;46367473]Games should be allowed to have stuff that makes you feel uncomfortable. Do you want the rape of proserpina removed from art galleries, should all rape scenes in literature and film be dummied out? Bad things happen, simulated bad things might make you uncomfortable, but any creative medium should be allowed to feature them and be judged based on context and execution, not purely on content. We can't have this push for games as art and a push for games being sterile of things that are bad at the same time coming from the same people. It's a paradoxical ideology.[/QUOTE]
Just on a similar note, it bothers me that a some people (not the entirety of any one group) attack games which take place in a historical setting, or use elements from a certain time period, as sexist and promoting certain ideology. It particularly bothers me because they seem to be willfully ignorant of history.
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