Wisconsin Governor Pranked by Pretend Koch Brother Confirming Union Busting Motive
113 replies, posted
You do know there's a difference between "Sell" and "sell out" right? Besides, I never supported Unions. Even FDR was against Government Unions. Heck, with what I know about him, it sounds like even he would side with Walker on this.
[quote=Washington Times][B]FDR vs. Wisconsin Teachers[/B]
The big issue in Wisconsin today is whether or not public sector workers should have collective bargaining rights. In an Aug. 16, 1937 letter to Luther Steward, the president of the National Federation of Public Employees, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt had something to say about that:
[M]eticulous attention should be paid to the special relationships and obligations of public servants to the public itself and to the Government.
All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations when applied to public personnel management. The very nature and purposes of Government make it impossible for administrative officials to represent fully or to bind the employer in mutual discussions with Government employee organizations. The employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives in Congress. Accordingly, administrative officials and employees alike are governed and guided, and in many instances restricted, by laws which establish policies, procedures, or rules in personnel matters.
Roosevelt would have absolutely rejected the mass demonstrations aimed at blocking access or regress from the state's legislative building, and at keeping children out of school:
Particularly, I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place in the functions of any organization of government employees. Upon employees in the Federal service rests the obligation to serve the whole people, whose interests and welfare require orderliness and continuity in the conduct of Government activities. This obligation is paramount. Since their own services have to do with the functioning of the Government, a strike of pubic employees manifests nothing less than an intent on their part to prevent or obstruct the operations of Government until their demands are satisfied. Such action, looking toward the paralysis of Government by those who have sworn to support it, is unthinkable and intolerable.
Yet now we have a president of the United States using his political organization, Organizing For America, to encourage militant tactics that would obstruct the operations of a SOVEREIGN state government, in order to keep collective bargaining of the sort that the great liberal icon and friend of unions, FDR, said has "distinct and insurmountable limitations."
It appears as if FDR would say that President Obama is wrong on substance, and dangerously out of line with regard to tactics.[/quote]
[url]http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/watercooler/2011/feb/18/fdr-vs-wisconsin-teachers/[/url]
[Quote=Heritage Foundation][B] F.D.R. Warned Us[/B]
“It is impossible to bargain collectively with the government.”
That wasn’t Newt Gingrich, or Ron Paul, or Ronald Reagan talking. That was George Meany — the former President of the AFL-CIO — in 1955. Government unions are unremarkable today, but the labor movement once thought the idea absurd.
The founders of the labor movement viewed unions as a vehicle to get workers more of the profits they help create. Government workers, however, don’t generate profits. They merely negotiate for more tax money. When government unions strike, they strike against taxpayers. FDR considered this “unthinkable and intolerable.”
Government collective bargaining means voters do not have the final say on public policy. Instead their elected representatives must negotiate spending and policy decisions with unions. That is not exactly democratic – a fact that unions once recognized.
George Meany was not alone. Up through the 1950s, unions widely agreed that collective bargaining had no place in government. But starting with Wisconsin in 1959, states began to allow collective bargaining in government. The influx of dues and members quickly changed the union movement’s tune, and collective bargaining in government is now widespread. As a result unions can now insist on laws that serve their interests – at the expense of the common good.
Union contracts make it next to impossible to reward excellent teachers or fire failing ones. Union contracts give government employees gold-plated benefits – at the cost of higher taxes and less spending on other priorities. The alternative to Walkers’ budget was kicking 200,000 children off Medicaid.
Gov. Walker’s plan reasserts voter control over government policy. Voters’ elected representatives should decide how the government spends their taxes. More states should heed the AFL-CIO Executive Council’s 1959 advice:
[I]in terms of accepted collective bargaining procedures, government workers have no right beyond the authority to petition Congress—a right available to every citizen.[/I][/quote]
[url]http://blog.heritage.org/2011/02/19/fdr-warmed-us/[/url]
Oh, and you're right about me on the Bloggo issue.
Yeah, today = 1950's, and all the same rules and reasons apply glaber. nothing has changed.
But didn't FDR's suspicions come true? I mean who pays the Public school Teachers here. The Tax payer. And when they go on strike, who are they striking against? The Tax Payer.
These Striking Teachers in Wisconsin also aren't really doing anything for their students. By going on strike like this, they effectively closed the Schools making the students have a longer school year to make up for the lost school days. If I was a Wisconsin student, I would be very upset with that.
Just because it's not the 1950's, doesn't mean that the words of the past can't be right from time to time. History does repeat itself. The thing that changed was the Unions stance on Collective bargaining with the government.
Okay, so if we get rid of unions to pay off Governor walkers campaign contribution and bribes, then what good does this do for the tax payer? What good does this do for the working man? Your schools are already some of the worst in the western world, and you just want to deprive the teachers of any reason to work?
I know you've admitted to wanting to scrap the education budget before any other budget, but I'd like to let you know that if you do this, your nation, already one of the dumbest industrialized ones, will just get dumber. Case and point, you want to bust unions to pay for his bribes.
[QUOTE=Glaber;28265438]But didn't FDR's suspicions come true? I mean who pays the Public school Teachers here. The Tax payer. And when they go on strike, who are they striking against? The Tax Payer.
These Striking Teachers in Wisconsin also aren't really doing anything for their students. By going on strike like this, they effectively closed the Schools making the students have a longer school year to make up for the lost school days. If I was a Wisconsin student, I would be very upset with that.
Just because it's not the 1950's, doesn't mean that the words of the past can't be right from time to time. History does repeat itself. The thing that changed was the Unions stance on Collective bargaining with the government.[/QUOTE]
Yes they are paid for by the taxpayer but the taxpayer receives a service in exchange for said taxes. Teachers making more money would encourage more teachers to apply and lower the student-to-teacher ratio and also enable teachers to devote more of their time to teaching rather than being under the stress of paying bills.
Hell, teachers can't even work JUST as teachers. They need summer jobs most of the time, hell, I know teachers who've had to work another job on top of the teaching job during the school year. They aren't paid a lot, and taking away their right to bargain, benefit, or even their reason to work(reasonable pay) is not a good idea.
[editline]24th February 2011[/editline]
I figured out how we fix the problem! WE JUST LET THE HONOURABLE FOX 'NEWS' CHANNEL TEACH EVERYONE! THEY NEVER LIE!
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;28265662]Hell, teachers can't even work JUST as teachers. They need summer jobs most of the time, hell, I know teachers who've had to work another job on top of the teaching job during the school year. They aren't paid a lot, and taking away their right to bargain, benefit, or even their reason to work(reasonable pay) is not a good idea.
[editline]24th February 2011[/editline]
I figured out how we fix the problem! WE JUST LET THE HONOURABLE FOX 'NEWS' CHANNEL TEACH EVERYONE! THEY NEVER LIE![/QUOTE]
I live in a state that's in the bottom five for per-pupil spending and has no collective bargaining rights, right-to-work laws, and total union membership is less than 5% for ALL careers. Average teacher salary in many high schools is less than 30,000.
[QUOTE=RBM11;28265697]I live in a state that's in the bottom five for per-pupil spending and has no collective bargaining rights, right-to-work laws, and total union membership is less than 5% for ALL careers. Average teacher salary in many high schools is less than 30,000.[/QUOTE]
Hey, hey, you know that's dem democrats faults.
Nevermind, our total union membership is 3.5% and lowest in the entire country.
[editline]24th February 2011[/editline]
Broken automerge :argh:
[QUOTE=RBM11;28265755]Nevermind, our total union membership is 3.5% and lowest in the entire country.
[editline]24th February 2011[/editline]
Broken automerge :argh:[/QUOTE]
Clear and definite proof that union busting is fucking bad.
It's amazing that you quote those articles as if FDR is speaking directly in them. He's quoted a total of two times; his words are taken from the middle of the sentence and out of context. Don't come in here posting opinion pieces written decades after FDR's death and then slap the late president's name on it, it doesn't fool anyone. Here's a full quote by Roosevelt: "The right to bargain collectively is at the bottom of social justice for the worker." He then went on to say: "The denial or observance of this right means the difference between despotism and democracy."
[QUOTE=Sega Saturn;28265816]It's amazing that you quote those articles as if FDR is speaking directly in them. He's quoted a total of two times; his words are taken from the middle of the sentence and out of context. Don't come in here posting opinion pieces written decades after FDR's death and then slap the late president's name on it, it doesn't fool anyone. Here's a full quote by Roosevelt: "The right to bargain collectively is at the bottom of social justice for the worker." He then went on to say: "The denial or observance of this right means the difference between despotism and democracy."[/QUOTE]
FUCK YOU
how DARE YOU INSINUATE THAT THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION WOULD LIE
I AM GLABER, MASTER OF TRUTH
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;28265811]Clear and definite proof that union busting is fucking bad.[/QUOTE]
Well to be fair we never had unions to begin with lol. I know the major cities have them and we also have excellent universities but most of the economy is agricultural.
[editline]24th February 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Sega Saturn;28265816]It's amazing that you quote those articles as if FDR is speaking directly in them. He's quoted a total of two times; his words are taken from the middle of the sentence and out of context. Don't come in here posting opinion pieces written decades after FDR's death and then slap the late president's name on it, it doesn't fool anyone. Here's a full quote by Roosevelt: "The right to bargain collectively is at the bottom of social justice for the worker." He then went on to say: "The denial or observance of this right means the difference between despotism and democracy."[/QUOTE]
Hey guyz Darwin didn't believe in evolution lol XD jesuz #1
[quote]To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree.[/quote]
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;28265538]Okay, so if we get rid of unions to pay off Governor walkers campaign contribution and bribes, then what good does this do for the tax payer? What good does this do for the working man? Your schools are already some of the worst in the western world, and you just want to deprive the teachers of any reason to work?
I know you've admitted to wanting to scrap the education budget before any other budget, but I'd like to let you know that if you do this, your nation, already one of the dumbest industrialized ones, will just get dumber. Case and point, you want to bust unions to pay for his bribes.[/QUOTE]
Have you still not connected the dots? Some of our worst schools are PUBLIC Schools. Why Just take a look at Detroit for example!
[quote=Mlive][B]Detroit Public Schools students rank last on national science test for large urban districts[/B]
Results of a national science assessment show Detroit Public Schools students continue to perform poorly on tests.
National Assessment of Educational Progress Trial Urban District Assessment scores released Thursday rank Detroit students last among 17 large urban cities.
[B][I]Eighty percent of Detroit eighth-graders and 74 percent of fourth-graders scored below basic on the tests given in 2009. Only three percent scored proficient on the test. None scored at an advanced level.
Schools emergency financial manager Robert Bobb says the results are not surprising given Detroit students placed last in reading and math on the same assessment. [/I][/B]Those scores were released in 2009.
Each of the tests was given before Bobb took over the district's finances in March 2009. He since has instituted a more rigorous curriculum.[/quote]
[url]http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2011/02/detroit_studens_rank_last_on_n.html[/url]
Keep in mind that most of Detroit's schools are Public Schools. Now because of Michigan's budget problems and the fact that no alternative funding source were found yet, nearly half of Detroit's Public schools will be closed. And yet, Teacher unions are fighting this as well. (Why didn't they teach better if they wanted to avoid this?)
[quote=Wall Street Journal] [B]Detroit Schools' Cuts Plan Approved [/B]
The state of Michigan approved a plan for Detroit to close about half of its public schools and increase the average size of high-school classrooms to 60 students over the next four years to eliminate a $327 million deficit.
The plan was submitted in January by Robert Bobb, Detroit Public Schools' emergency financial manager, as a last-ditch scenario if the district couldn't find new revenue sources, which it hasn't so far. Final approval came after Mike Flanagan, the state superintendent of public instruction, cleared Mr. Bobb's initial plan with some new requirements, including that the district not file for bankruptcy protection during Mr. Bobb's remaining months in office.
The state approved the plan in a Feb. 8 letter, which the Detroit public-schools district released Monday.
Mr. Bobb said the deep cuts were necessary if the district hoped to be solvent again without additional state aid. But he said the strategy was ultimately ill-advised because it will likely drive even more students away, depriving the district of needed state funds, which Michigan apportions on the basis of enrollment.
"This is the route we're forced to take under state law," Steven Wasko, Detroit Public Schools' assistant superintendent for communications, said Monday. "However we continue to look for longer-term plans so we can avoid this."
Mr. Bobb is now moving to shrink the district to 72 schools from 142, as enrollment is expected to decline to 58,570 students by 2014 from about 73,000 students today.
Mr. Bobb was appointed emergency financial manager for the district two years ago to help close what was then a $218 million deficit, and moved quickly to close schools and root out waste. But the deficit deepened during his tenure, weighed down by salary, pension and health-care obligations. The longtime municipal manager said that without the cuts and cost-savings measures he has made since 2009, the district would face a deficit of more than $500 million today.
Meanwhile, many of his efforts to restructure the district's academics and finances were derailed by clashes with unions and with the elected school board, which recently won a court fight to control academics and select the next superintendent.
Anthony Adams, the chairman of the school board, didn't respond Monday to a request for comment. The school board has sought an infusion of funds from the state and an end to outside control of the district.
Mr. Bobb has agreed to stay a few more months beyond his appointed term, through the end of June. A spokeswoman for Republican Gov. Rick Snyder said Monday that he was considering appointing another emergency manager to succeed Mr. Bobb, which would keep the elected board of education largely sidelined on financial matters for the near future.
Organized labor is fighting back. The Detroit Federation of Teachers called for an emergency lobbying day Tuesday in Lansing, the state capital, to protest bills granting emergency financial managers broad power over cities and school districts in financial crisis. Under those bills, emergency managers could toss out union contracts, dissolve school boards and set wage and benefit levels without collective bargaining. Mr. Bobb is generally supportive of the bills, said Mr. Wasko, the assistant superintendent.
Calls to union officials weren't immediately returned Monday.[/quote]
[url]http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703610604576158783513445212.html[/url]
Teachers can demand higher pay, but if they don't improve or continue to turnout students with high grades. Why should we continue to pay teachers who can't teach? And if they strike, are they not doing a disservice to the students? Do we even know the success rates of the schools where these Teachers who are on strike teach?
step 1: be glaber
step 2: ignore when you are proven wrong
step 3: change the subject
step 4: claim victory
[QUOTE=Glaber;28266487]Have you still not connected the dots? Some of out worst schools are PUBLIC Schools. Why Just take a look at Detroit for example![/QUOTE]
I think that's because most of the schools in America are public schools.
[QUOTE=Glaber;28266487]Keep in mind that most of Detroit's schools are Public Schools. Now because of Michigan's budget problems and the fact that no alternative funding source were found yet, nearly half of Detroit's Public schools will be closed. And yet, Teacher unions are fighting this as well. (Why didn't they teach better if they wanted to avoid this?)[/quote]
How do you recommend they "teach better"? No amount of wanting to teach better is going to make better teaching materials (text books, computers, etc.) appear out of thin air.
[QUOTE=Glaber;28266487]Teachers can demand higher pay, but if they don't improve or continue to turnout students with high grades. Why should we continue to pay teachers who can't teach? And if they strike, are they not doing a disservice to the students? Do we even know the success rates of the schools where these Teachers who are on strike teach?[/QUOTE]
Well then tell me, what times is it okay for teachers to strike? Or is it just never?
Mr. Scorpio. What was it I was proven wrong about?
[QUOTE=Sega Saturn;28264644]:hurr:
When Blagojevich tried to sell Obama's senate seat back in 08 you probably railed against him with the rest of us for being corrupt as all get out. Now that Walker has tried to sell out the teachers, public workers, and power plants as kickback to the companies who paid for his campaign, you vouch for him, and pledge your support to his decisions. I hope you realize that your integrity is exactly equivalent to the integrity of those you stand behind.[/QUOTE]
Hey now, Illinois could have really used the money made from selling the Senate seat to fix it's budget problems. :downs:
Fair elections have gone on unchecked for far too long.
[QUOTE=Glaber;28266770]Mr. Scorpio. What was it I was proven wrong about?[/QUOTE]
is the top half of your computer monitor broken
i know you're not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed, but don't tell me you couldn't read the first post on this page
Question. What does Detroit have to do with the governor of Wisconsin?
[QUOTE=Glaber;28266487]Have you still not connected the dots? Some of out worst schools are PUBLIC Schools. Why Just take a look at Detroit for example!
[url]http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2011/02/detroit_studens_rank_last_on_n.html[/url]
Keep in mind that most of Detroit's schools are Public Schools. Now because of Michigan's budget problems and the fact that no alternative funding source were found yet, nearly half of Detroit's Public schools will be closed. And yet, Teacher unions are fighting this as well. (Why didn't they teach better if they wanted to avoid this?)
[url]http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703610604576158783513445212.html[/url]
Teachers can demand higher pay, but if they don't improve or continue to turnout students with high grades. Why should we continue to pay teachers who can't teach? And if they strike, are they not doing a disservice to the students? Do we even know the success rates of the schools where these Teachers who are on strike teach?[/QUOTE]
It's because they're poor jesus christ.
[editline]24th February 2011[/editline]
The students I mean. Economic status is a huge influence on a kid's development and the largest determining factor in their success in school and life.
[QUOTE=Glaber;28266487](Why didn't they teach better if they wanted to avoid this?)[/QUOTE]
Oh my. I don't even.
There's plenty of reasons teachers don't just 'teach better,' but the lack of decent pay encourages the best of the best to avoid teaching. When you don't pay competitively, you shouldn't expect much quality in return.
And you want schools shut down? Do you have even the slightest hint of understanding as to how the world worked before readily available public schooling? Areas with bad public schooling leaves kids unable to leave where they grew up, and they remain in poverty. This increases violence and crime dramatically. The best way to solve these problems has repeatedly been shown to be improving the schooling in an area to allow people to get better lives, avoiding crime. You want to take the worst areas and crush them further into the ground. You're a sick, twisted individual.
Private schooling can never solve this - poor people can't afford enough schooling to cease being poor.
[QUOTE=Thy Reaper;28267124]Oh my. I don't even.
There's plenty of reasons teachers don't just 'teach better,' but the lack of decent pay encourages the best of the best to avoid teaching. When you don't pay competitively, you shouldn't expect much quality in return.
And you want schools shut down? Do you have even the slightest hint of understanding as to how the world worked before readily available public schooling? Areas with bad public schooling leaves kids unable to leave where they grew up, and they remain in poverty. This increases violence and crime dramatically. The best way to solve these problems has repeatedly been shown to be improving the schooling in an area to allow people to get better lives, avoiding crime. You want to take the worst areas and crush them further into the ground. You're a sick, twisted individual.
Private schooling can never solve this - poor people can't afford enough schooling to cease being poor.[/QUOTE]
Yeah as someone who's going to work as a programmer, I'm not going to take a 50% cut in pay and benefits just to teach some brats how to program. I'll just go ahead and be chained to a desk all day.
[QUOTE=RBM11;28266939]It's because they're poor jesus christ.
[editline]24th February 2011[/editline]
The students I mean. Economic status is a huge influence on a kid's development and the largest determining factor in their success in school and life.[/QUOTE]
No it isn't, life is capitalistic, can't you see? Everything is about how hard you work. If you're retarded, you can work hard and own the country. CAN'T YOU SEE!?
[editline]24th February 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Thy Reaper;28267124]Oh my. I don't even.
There's plenty of reasons teachers don't just 'teach better,' but the lack of decent pay encourages the best of the best to avoid teaching. When you don't pay competitively, you shouldn't expect much quality in return.
And you want schools shut down? Do you have even the slightest hint of understanding as to how the world worked before readily available public schooling? Areas with bad public schooling leaves kids unable to leave where they grew up, and they remain in poverty. This increases violence and crime dramatically. The best way to solve these problems has repeatedly been shown to be improving the schooling in an area to allow people to get better lives, avoiding crime. You want to take the worst areas and crush them further into the ground. You're a sick, twisted individual.
Private schooling can never solve this - poor people can't afford enough schooling to cease being poor.[/QUOTE]
Dude, you're 100% right, but don't expect glaber to see the least bit of reason in what you said. As far as he's concerned, poor people can't advance because they don't care to try.
[QUOTE=Glaber;28266487]Have you still not connected the dots? Some of out worst schools are PUBLIC Schools. Why Just take a look at Detroit for example!
[url]http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2011/02/detroit_studens_rank_last_on_n.html[/url]
Keep in mind that most of Detroit's schools are Public Schools. Now because of Michigan's budget problems and the fact that no alternative funding source were found yet, nearly half of Detroit's Public schools will be closed. And yet, Teacher unions are fighting this as well. (Why didn't they teach better if they wanted to avoid this?)
[url]http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703610604576158783513445212.html[/url]
Teachers can demand higher pay, but if they don't improve or continue to turnout students with high grades. Why should we continue to pay teachers who can't teach? And if they strike, are they not doing a disservice to the students? Do we even know the success rates of the schools where these Teachers who are on strike teach?[/QUOTE]
I love how you completely ignored Sega Saturn's post when he nailed you for twisting FDR's words to suit your beliefs. Once again, Glaber Logic prev(f)ails.
[QUOTE=Glaber;28266487]Have you still not connected the dots? Some of out worst schools are PUBLIC Schools. Why Just take a look at Detroit for example!
[url]http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2011/02/detroit_studens_rank_last_on_n.html[/url]
Keep in mind that most of Detroit's schools are Public Schools. Now because of Michigan's budget problems and the fact that no alternative funding source were found yet, nearly half of Detroit's Public schools will be closed. And yet, Teacher unions are fighting this as well. (Why didn't they teach better if they wanted to avoid this?)
[url]http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703610604576158783513445212.html[/url]
Teachers can demand higher pay, but if they don't improve or continue to turnout students with high grades. Why should we continue to pay teachers who can't teach? And if they strike, are they not doing a disservice to the students? Do we even know the success rates of the schools where these Teachers who are on strike teach?[/QUOTE]
I love how you bash me for not connecting the dots, but you haven't even tried to look at the fucking dots.
Also, you got fucking owned by sega saturn. You just ignored it. You constantly prove why we can't take your dumb ass seriously.
I was listening to Rush "Painkiller" Limbough the other day just because I could, and he says the darndest things.
"I like the increased productivity from the people who work for me because I pay them more than I have to, but if they were in a union I wouldn't pay these guys shit."
Paraphrased from memory, but the message is the same.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;28266816]is the top half of your computer monitor broken
i know you're not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed, but don't tell me you couldn't read the first post on this page[/QUOTE]
I read it, but I also read RBM11's post below it where it mentioned Darwin and gave an example of Darwin contradicting his own theory of Evolution and Natural Selection.
[QUOTE=Sega Saturn;28265816]Here's a full quote by Roosevelt: "The right to bargain collectively is at the bottom of social justice for the worker." He then went on to say: "The denial or observance of this right means the difference between despotism and democracy."[/QUOTE]
Now To rebut this, it appears that FDR also contradicted himself in the same way Darwin did. but the fact still remained that he believed that Collective Bargaining was incompatible with Government as it would obstruct government from doing what it's suppose to. Also the quote wasn't cited. How am I suppose to know that this is a real quote without a citation or source?
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;28266729]I think that's because most of the schools in America are public schools.
How do you recommend they "teach better"? No amount of wanting to teach better is going to make better teaching materials (text books, computers, etc.) appear out of thin air.
Well then tell me, what times is it okay for teachers to strike? Or is it just never?[/QUOTE]
Well then, I guess that should say something about their quality, wouldn't it?
How? Get the students more involved somehow. Get them interested in learning, actually teach the subject you're suppose to teach, and don't promote a political objective of either side. (Yes this even means to not promote Conservative or Liberal objectives in schools)
I'd only find it acceptable to strike if the recipients of the strike were the Districts, not the entire State. and even then it would have to be about stuff that actually would benefit students like better supplies, more funding towards programs that are more educational than sports (sorry sports supporters, but education is more important). When teachers just strike for more money or to get exempt from the same hardships we're all facing, I just can't support that, even Less so when state laws don't allow for Public Union Teachers to legally Strike, like in Wisconsin. If the schools do have up to date supplies, I see no reason for Teachers to strike. If Teachers have to get second jobs, then welcome to the real world. Some of us have to get 2 jobs weather we like it or not. Heck I'd be happy to even find one job, but that's just my situation.
[QUOTE=Thy Reaper;28267124]Oh my. I don't even.
There's plenty of reasons teachers don't just 'teach better,' but the lack of decent pay encourages the best of the best to avoid teaching. When you don't pay competitively, you shouldn't expect much quality in return.
And you want schools shut down? Do you have even the slightest hint of understanding as to how the world worked before readily available public schooling? Areas with bad public schooling leaves kids unable to leave where they grew up, and they remain in poverty. This increases violence and crime dramatically. The best way to solve these problems has repeatedly been shown to be improving the schooling in an area to allow people to get better lives, avoiding crime. You want to take the worst areas and crush them further into the ground. You're a sick, twisted individual.
Private schooling can never solve this - poor people can't afford enough schooling to cease being poor.[/QUOTE]
[Citation Needed] Where did I say I wanted Schools to shut down? My example of what my State is doing to try to balance the Budget? Nice (Bad)reading between the lines there.
I don't doubt you being right about the effects of shutting down schools in poor districts, but what can you do? Raise Taxes on already poor families? I really would like to see some better options. Life is full of tough choices and not all of them are good. Sometimes the choices available leave us with no good option and we have to try to figure out the one that does the least harm that's the most viable. Do I want to see these schools close? No! Because then Students would have even less time with their teachers one on one and don't even get me started on how crowed the classes would get. (I'm imaging 2 classes in one room right now) I really have to wonder how they could fit that many students into a room made for half as many.
[QUOTE=PvtCupcakes;28267329]Yeah as someone who's going to work as a programmer, I'm not going to take a 50% cut in pay and benefits just to teach some brats how to program. I'll just go ahead and be chained to a desk all day.[/QUOTE]
I'd hate to be your student! Imagine the harm you'd be doing to your students. Even if you do consider them brats, it's still your job to teach them. What if Your programming Teacher felt the same way as you? (assuming you had one) How much programming do you think you would of had to learn on your own? You know what? Some of the best teachers are those who work in the same field they teach. Though some times even they can mess up. (My animation teacher taught me how to animate flexes on 3d models, but not how to make them.)
Glaber, so, your rebuttal is "FDR contradicted himself, I'm still right" and that you know schools being shut down is bad, you know it's not helping anyone, but what can you do but raise taxes? Oh, I dunno, so many things besides union busting.
It's like you don't realize what's coming out of your mouth, and how little what you suggest would help.
You know what glaber, I wish we could see the world EXACTLY as you want it. I wish we could.
[QUOTE=Glaber;28267849]but the fact still remained that he belied that Collective Bargaining was incompatible with Government[/QUOTE]
So the opinions you posted on the last page are "fact" now? Whelp. Guys, it's no use. Glaber has been posting FACTS this whole time, no use arguing any further.
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