The article cited about 0 sources that I can see.
But let's just ignore that. Lets ignore that the numbers provided have nothing to be compared against, such as the total number of guns seized in Mexico, or the fact that with a crooked government the cartels can get automatic weapons from their own damn country.
[QUOTE=M308;26702931]First of all, I live in New York. In case you don't know what that means, let me cue you in: New York is the second only to California in firearm restriction. I'm 17 and I own a Browning BPS Trap so that I can shoot clay pigeons on weekends. Before you spout any technical nonsense and label me, why don't you look up what exactly a BPS is?
In fact, before you slip up and don't know what you're even talking about, don't even reply unless you either know the terms I'm using or research the ones you don't.
I'm outright infuriated at the nonsense on all sides of the spectrum when it comes to firearms. And it's not only because of the social risk that I take being a teenager who owns a firearm after all the hype from Columbine. No, my issue? It's so fucking easy to solve the problems in this country, but everybody's got a large stick up their ass or they're too afraid of a backlash from tightening restriction in other states or something.
When you say "Texas" you're making a null point, because last I checked, it's the same state that picked Creationist science textbooks over Biology textbooks in schools. Texas is selling guns to criminals because [i]there are no laws[/i] that say that they can't. Not like in New York and California where it's damned near impossible to buy a firearm if you've committed any type of felony within the state.
That's not to say that I don't recognize the importance of firearm control or anything. I have a huge issue with pistols being allowed to be sold in the rest of the country without government permit, especially when people are allowed to get all-carry licenses for no good reason.
But it is laughable at how stupid both sides of the argument really are. Sure, it's stupid enough that there aren't laws in some places that prohibit felons from buying any firearms. But then people like you, and people who wrote the article in the OP, step in with arguments referring to specific models or parts, and rile others up when in reality you have no idea what the difference between a "flash suppressor" and "barrel shroud" is.
So, you know what my argument is? It is not only a request that you stop with your nonsensical articles, written by people who haven't handled even the most basic firearms personally before, but it is a reminder for all the people who are going to defend nonsensical lack of laws and ungodly amounts of corruption related to protecting the rights for the scum of Earth to possess their automatic AR-15s (points to West Virginia) that they cannot justify civilians being allowed weaponry under such loose constraints.
I will now walk out quietly and hope that this thread dies after an idle post or two.[/QUOTE]
The thread isn't about whether certain "scary" accessories should be sold, it's about the government not prosecuting gun dealers who knowingly sell weapons of any kind to cartels.
[editline]14th December 2010[/editline]
[QUOTE=dogmachines;26702941]the fact that with a crooked government the cartels can get automatic weapons from their own damn country.[/QUOTE]
obviously not enough that some don't come across the border and buy semi-automatic hunting rifles here
[QUOTE=Prismatex;26702914]4 of the 12 American gun stores where weapons seized from cartels can be sourced to are owned by one guy.
Don't pretend that the gun store owners don't know what's going on.
[editline]14th December 2010[/editline]
OP isn't calling for a ban on selling any kind of guns, he's just saying that the government needs to crack down on dealers who knowingly sell to cartels.[/QUOTE]
What I mean't to say was that although the owner DOES know what's going on, he's not going to do anything about it for profits.
[QUOTE=GunFox;26701518]Yeah Smallfry pretty much said it. Anyone who knows anything about firearms can look at that article and tell immediately that the writer is full of shit.[/QUOTE]
Except the article isn't about firearms. Sure, he might use scare words to refer to guns, but it doesn't stop the main point that gun store owners have been knowingly selling guns to cartel buyers and the government hasn't been stopping them.
No one has been calling for a ban on any kind of guns, just a desire for the government to do its job.
Isn't that what you guys said about the Arizona immigration bill? The government needs to do its job?
[editline]14th December 2010[/editline]
[QUOTE=tier56;26702987]What I mean't to say was that although the owner DOES know what's going on, he's not going to do anything about for profits.[/QUOTE]
Exactly, which is why the government needs to step in and start prosecuting people who knowingly sell guns that will be illegally smuggled across the border.
There's a certain gun-nut crowd on FP that will, as soon as anyone mentions guns in any context, start bitching about technical terms used in the article and start raising the specter of a ban, even when no one's talking about bans.
[editline]14th December 2010[/editline]
No one's even calling for stricter laws, just better enforcement of the laws we already have.
[QUOTE=M308;26702931]First of all, I live in New York. In case you don't know what that means, let me cue you in: New York is the second only to California in firearm restriction. I'm 17 and I own a Browning BPS Trap so that I can shoot clay pigeons on weekends. Before you spout any technical nonsense and label me, why don't you look up what exactly a BPS is?
In fact, before you slip up and don't know what you're even talking about, don't even reply unless you either know the terms I'm using or research the ones you don't.
I'm outright infuriated at the nonsense on all sides of the spectrum when it comes to firearms. And it's not only because of the social risk that I take being a teenager who owns a firearm after all the hype from Columbine. No, my issue? It's so fucking easy to solve the problems in this country, but everybody's got a large stick up their ass or they're too afraid of a backlash from tightening restriction in other states or something.
When you say "Texas" you're making a null point, because last I checked, it's the same state that picked Creationist science textbooks over Biology textbooks in schools. Texas is selling guns to criminals because [i]there are no laws[/i] that say that they can't. Not like in New York and California where it's damned near impossible to buy a firearm if you've committed any type of felony within the state.
That's not to say that I don't recognize the importance of firearm control or anything. I have a huge issue with pistols being allowed to be sold in the rest of the country without government permit, especially when people are allowed to get all-carry licenses for no good reason.
But it is laughable at how stupid both sides of the argument really are. Sure, it's stupid enough that there aren't laws in some places that prohibit felons from buying any firearms. But then people like you, and people who wrote the article in the OP, step in with arguments referring to specific models or parts, and rile others up when in reality you have no idea what the difference between a "flash suppressor" and "barrel shroud" is.
So, you know what my argument is? It is not only a request that you stop with your nonsensical articles, written by people who haven't handled even the most basic firearms personally before, but it is a reminder for all the people who are going to defend nonsensical lack of laws and ungodly amounts of corruption related to protecting the rights for the scum of Earth to possess their automatic AR-15s (points to West Virginia) that they cannot justify civilians being allowed weaponry under such loose constraints.
I will now walk out quietly and hope that this thread dies after an idle post or two.[/QUOTE]
All you did there is spout technical information, without providing a solid argument. If you paid attention (I hope you did), I apologised for the biased language in the article in the OP, which was ridiculously anti-firearm. Personally, I'm anti-firearm for the UK, but I also realise that the US is a different country, with a different culture, of which firearms are an integral part, for several reasons. However, there is no reason, cultural or otherwise, why selling firearms to criminals is a good idea, and I'm not sure why you are attacking peripheral parts of my arguments, instead of the main one.
Oh, something else I forgot to remind people of.
Better enforcement from [i]who?![/i] Need I remind you again that states make their own respective laws for firearms? And the fact that Texas doesn't have any laws for selling guns to criminals?
The only generalized influence on firearms that the government has is the second amendment. And that gives people the right to own weapons, doesn't take any away.
[QUOTE=M308;26703172]The only generalized influence on firearms that the government has is the second amendment. And that gives people the right to own weapons, doesn't take any away.[/QUOTE]
BATF?
It gives people the right to own guns, but it doesn't give them the right to sell them to criminals and give said criminals advice for smuggling them across the border.
let's refer to two instances from the article:
[quote]On one occasion, a man bought 15 .223-calibre sniper rifles, worth $9,000, from one store on a single day.[/quote]
[quote]One member of the gang bought 14 AK-47s in one day from a single dealer. He paid cash.[/quote]
are you guys telling me that the dealers didn't get suspicious at all about these purchases? FIFTEEN rifles in one instance, and FOURTEEN rifles in another instance... all paid for with cash.
if I was the gun shop owner, I'd refuse to sell to these people.
[QUOTE=Camundongo;26703141]However, there is no reason, cultural or otherwise, why selling firearms to criminals is a good idea, and I'm not sure why you are attacking peripheral parts of my arguments, instead of the main one.[/QUOTE]If YOU were paying attention, you'd realize that I agreed with you in the first place, you insufferable fool.
And [i]because you can't make a main argument unless the peripheral parts are accurate.[/i] You don't get credibility for just saying "guns are bad." You get credibility for actually knowing about the very things you're trying to get rid of.
[QUOTE=smallfry;26701456]Nothing to see here, move along[/QUOTE]
[quote]US weapons fuel Mexican drug wars
[B]By Guy Adams in [U]Los Angeles[/U][/B][/quote]
[QUOTE=M308;26703172]Oh, something else I forgot to remind people of.
Better enforcement from [i]who?![/i] Need I remind you again that states make their own respective laws for firearms? And the fact that Texas doesn't have any laws for selling guns to criminals?
The only generalized influence on firearms that the government has is the second amendment. And that gives people the right to own weapons, doesn't take any away.[/QUOTE]
And that doesn't worry you at all? I respect that states need individuality, and should be proud of it, but selling criminals firearms should be federal offense. Hell, they can take the firearms across an international border, what stops them crossing to neighbouring states?
[QUOTE=JDK721;26703218]let's refer to two instances from the article:
are you guys telling me that the dealers didn't get suspicious at all about these purchases? FIFTEEN rifles in one instance, and FOURTEEN rifles in another instance... all paid for with cash.
if I was the gun shop owner, I'd refuse to sell to these people.[/QUOTE]
This guy's sold at least 150 guns to cartels, and jokes about guns going to Mexico.
[quote]Mr Carter has yet to be successfully charged with making an illegal sale. In a newspaper advertisement in April, he joked: "Why all the talk about guns going south when so many drugs are coming north that our cows along the interstate are gettin' high off the fumes!"
[/quote]
To say that he doesn't know what's going on would be ridiculous.
I hope that they can prove he knowingly sold firearms to a felon or to someone who he knew would use the firearms illegally and charge him with a felony.
he deserves it.
[url]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/13/AR2010121305963.html[/url]
Oh look, the feds are investigating billboard guy's store.
This is all OP was calling for, not a ban on guns or stricter laws.
[QUOTE=JDK721;26703218]are you guys telling me that the dealers didn't get suspicious at all about these purchases?[/QUOTE]
any gun dealer wouldn't give a shit about it they just want their money
[QUOTE=Ermac20;26703310]any gun dealer wouldn't give a shit about it they just want their money[/QUOTE]
not necessarily. some gun dealers actually have integrity and would rather not go to prison.
The basic idea behind the article is correct: Mexican cartels are getting their guns from legitimate dealers and some of those dealers are doing it on purpose. However, the author's explanations about the gun laws of Texas and the types of guns being sold are incorrect.
Pro-gun: Don't just focus on the author's biased views.
Anti-gun: Don't ignore the inaccuracy about Texas gun laws.
[QUOTE=M308;26703225]If YOU were paying attention, you'd realize that I agreed with you in the first place, you insufferable fool.
And [i]because you can't make a main argument unless the peripheral parts are accurate.[/i] You don't get credibility for just saying "guns are bad." You get credibility for actually knowing about the very things you're trying to get rid of.[/QUOTE]
First of all, your language is fairly hostile, and it does seem like the majority of bile in your post was directed at me. And I did say that the article was left-biased, but brought up interesting points. But I'm sorry for having misinterpreted your post. :love:
I thought it was proven that most guns were stolen from the Mexican military? To me that would be easier then smuggling them across the border.
[QUOTE=ExplodingGuy;26701410]Of course a majority of firearms used by Cartels are going to be from the US, we're the nearest damn country that has stable armament manufacturing.[/QUOTE]
Sweden makes tons of guns too, but you don't see uprising Danish cartels all over the place.
It's not the guns causing it, it's your ass-backwards government that inflates cartels through legislation that builds up black markets.
[QUOTE=Prismatex;26703023]Except the article isn't about firearms. Sure, he might use scare words to refer to guns, but it doesn't stop the main point that gun store owners have been knowingly selling guns to cartel buyers and the government hasn't been stopping them.
No one has been calling for a ban on any kind of guns, just a desire for the government to do its job.
Isn't that what you guys said about the Arizona immigration bill? The government needs to do its job?[/QUOTE]
"you guys"?
He isn't using "scare words" he is just flat out wrong. Incorrect. Utterly and completely pulling shit out of his ass. A huge portion of his article is just complete fabrication and yet you want to use part of it as actual valid evidence.
The author has been proven to have no idea what he is talking about, listening to anything written in the article would be silly.
[QUOTE=GunFox;26703776]"you guys"?
He isn't using "scare words" he is just flat out wrong. Incorrect. Utterly and completely pulling shit out of his ass. A huge portion of his article is just complete fabrication and yet you want to use part of it as actual valid evidence.
The author has been proven to have no idea what he is talking about, listening to anything written in the article would be silly.[/QUOTE]
point out the "fabrications."
[QUOTE=JDK721;26703824]point out the "fabrications."[/QUOTE]
AK-47.
Armor piercing round.
.50 caliber machine gun.
[QUOTE=GunFox;26703776]"you guys"?
He isn't using "scare words" he is just flat out wrong. Incorrect. Utterly and completely pulling shit out of his ass. A huge portion of his article is just complete fabrication and yet you want to use part of it as actual valid evidence.
The author has been proven to have no idea what he is talking about, listening to anything written in the article would be silly.[/QUOTE]
I guess that's why one of the gun dealers mentioned in the article is currently being investigated for illegally selling firearms to mexican drug cartels, because the article is wrong.
To reiterate, the complaint here is against corrupt gun dealers - not US gun laws.
[QUOTE=JDK721;26703824]point out the "fabrications."[/QUOTE]
"In Texas, 3,800 gun dealers are freely permitted to sell high-powered equipment such as AR-15s, AK-47s, and armour-piercing .50-calibre machine guns"
Fuck, if that was true i'd be shitting my pants and/or buying one right now. Automatics are so fucking expensive (>$20,000), and AK-47s, and M2s go for around $100k, and they have to background check the person, and go through extensive paperwork.
[QUOTE=zombiefreak;26703972]"In Texas, 3,800 gun dealers are freely permitted to sell high-powered equipment such as AR-15s, AK-47s, and armour-piercing .50-calibre machine guns"
Fuck, if that was true i'd be shitting my pants and/or buying one right now. Automatics are so fucking expensive (>$20,000), and AK-47s, and M2s go for around $100k, and they have to background check the person, and go through extensive paperwork.[/QUOTE]
That still doesn't nullify the point of the article, which is that some gun dealers in Texas have been knowingly selling guns to cartel members.
[QUOTE=Camundongo;26703902]I guess that's why one of the gun dealers mentioned in the article is currently being investigated for illegally selling firearms to mexican drug cartels, because the article is wrong.
[b]To reiterate, the complaint here is against corrupt gun dealers - not US gun laws.[/b][/QUOTE]
Ok, you literally can't do shit about that. We already have enough checks and paperwork for that kind of shit.
[QUOTE=Camundongo;26703902]I guess that's why one of the gun dealers mentioned in the article is currently being investigated for illegally selling firearms to mexican drug cartels, because the article is wrong.
To reiterate, the complaint here is against corrupt gun dealers - not US gun laws.[/QUOTE]
I don't doubt firearms are being sold, but only because I've heard it before.
As we've determined, the process is already highly illegal and is being investigated by law enforcement. The problem remains however that the goddamn article is full of lies.
Shit like this is what gets innocuous things like teflon coatings for bullets banned.
No it doesn't, but it shows that whoever wrote the article either has a bad case of bias or didn't do their homework
[QUOTE=Prismatex;26703989]That still doesn't nullify the point of the article, which is that some gun dealers in Texas have been knowingly selling guns to cartel members.[/QUOTE]
Welp, what do you (US Government) intend on doing?
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