• US weapons fuel Mexican drug wars
    111 replies, posted
[QUOTE=GunFox;26703997]I don't doubt firearms are being sold, but only because I've heard it before. As we've determined, the process is already highly illegal and is being investigated by law enforcement. The problem remains however that the goddamn article is full of lies. Shit like this is what gets innocuous things like teflon (Not that it was actually really teflon) coatings for bullets banned.[/QUOTE] An article in a UK newspaper is unlikely to effect the US - and I mentioned in the OP that article was biased. And again, the lie was about the type of gun being sold - regardless of what varient or type is being sold, firearms being sold to criminals is illegal. [quote=zombiefreak]Welp, what do you (US Government) intend on doing?[/quote] Randomised checks on people who have bought firearms. If you can present the firearm and the license to hold it, not a problem. If you brought a firearm, and you can't provide evidence of it's location, you need to provide a license for it and within a certain timeframe the firearm. Still open for abuse, I agree, but harder to fake than the current system.
[QUOTE=zombiefreak;26704011]Welp, what do you (US Government) intend on doing?[/QUOTE] holy fuck if you would read the article you'd know [quote]The problems authorities face are illustrated by the case of George Iknadosian, who owned a gun store called X-Caliber and was caught on tape telling undercover agents posing as gunrunners how to sneak weapons across the border, advising them to cross on weekends, when border agents might be off fishing. Although he sold 47 guns later linked to crimes in Mexico, [b]charges against him were thrown out by a judge.[/b] [/quote]
[QUOTE=Camundongo;26704094]An article in a UK newspaper is unlikely to effect the US - and I mentioned in the OP that article was biased. And again, the lie was about the type of gun being sold - regardless of what varient or type is being sold, firearms being sold to criminals is illegal.[/QUOTE] aka black market dealers. It is impossible to root these guys out, unless you do it by force. All dealers have some form of a federal background check required when selling guns. [editline]14th December 2010[/editline] [QUOTE=Prismatex;26704191]holy fuck if you would read the article you'd know[/QUOTE] That isn't what I was referring to. I was referring to how are you going to PREVENT it?
[QUOTE=zombiefreak;26704225]That isn't what I was referring to. I was referring to how are you going to PREVENT it?[/QUOTE] Go after the ones who are doing it?
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;26702502]ITT: Another anti-gun dude gets torn up by Facepunch's gun army.[/QUOTE] His argument was full of holes anyway to begin with.
[QUOTE=Prismatex;26704278]Go after the ones who are doing it?[/QUOTE] That's not stopping the initial crime though. We already have federal and statewide background checks, the government can't do much more effectively without infringing upon the rights of the citizens.
[QUOTE=zombiefreak;26704225]aka black market dealers. It is impossible to root these guys out, unless you do it by force. All dealers have some form of a federal background check required when selling guns. [editline]14th December 2010[/editline] That isn't what I was referring to. I was referring to how are you going to PREVENT it?[/QUOTE] You seem to be suggesting that the US gives up. I can see that'll work well. Or maybe the US can improve it's screening process, provide stricter regulations on the sale of firearms, or hell, make citizens register to purchase firearms?
[QUOTE=zombiefreak;26704334]That's not stopping the initial crime though. We already have federal and statewide background checks, the government can't do much more effectively without infringing upon the rights of the citizens.[/QUOTE] Obviously these background checks aren't being done, else they wouldn't be selling guns to non-US citizens.
[QUOTE=Camundongo;26704422]You seem to be suggesting that the US gives up. I can see that'll work well. Or maybe the US can improve it's screening process, provide stricter regulations on the sale of firearms, or hell, make citizens register to purchase firearms?[/QUOTE] No, I suggest that we leave it alone. How can you improve a screening process when you are checked if you have been CONVICTED of a domestic abuse? Making citizens register to purchase firearms won't do any good that background checks already do, and just cost the government millions (See: Canadian Gun Registration). We already have enough regulations on legal firearms as it is, there's nothing that's effective that the black market can't skate around.
[QUOTE=Camundongo;26704094]An article in a UK newspaper is unlikely to effect the US - and I mentioned in the OP that article was biased. And again, the lie was about the type of gun being sold - regardless of what varient or type is being sold, firearms being sold to criminals is illegal. Randomised checks on people who have bought firearms. If you can present the firearm and the license to hold it, not a problem. If you brought a firearm, and you can't provide evidence of it's location, you need to provide a license for it and within a certain timeframe the firearm. Still open for abuse, I agree, but harder to fake than the current system.[/QUOTE] But that doesn't help this at all. They buy the guns and then leave the country. And a license to own is rarely necessary in the US. Owning a firearm is considered a normal thing. We don't force every citizen to be subjected to unnecessary searches like a criminal. Unless they want a board plane. Then we treat every citizen like a criminal! Hoor-wait. shit.
[QUOTE=Prismatex;26704479]Obviously these background checks aren't being done, else they wouldn't be selling guns to non-US citizens.[/QUOTE] As I said, black market dealers. You can't regulate them.
[QUOTE=Camundongo;26704422] Or maybe the US can improve it's screening process, provide stricter regulations on the sale of firearms, or hell, make citizens register to purchase firearms?[/QUOTE] People like the fact that you can buy a firearm and the government can't trace you (unless you purchase one online, but that's almost entirely different beast altogether), I'd argue that's what keeps the government somewhat on it's toes and nervous of the population. Plus in the courts such a measure to make people register their firearms, that is going to be met with some incredible legal resistance and people arguing that its a step down the road for Gun Control/Disarmament. It will not fly. [QUOTE=GunFox;26704498]But that doesn't help this at all. They buy the guns and then leave the country. And a license to own is rarely necessary in the US. Owning a firearm is considered a normal thing. We don't force every citizen to be subjected to unnecessary searches like a criminal. Unless they want a board plane. Then we treat every citizen like a criminal! Hoor-wait. shit.[/QUOTE] And also this.
[QUOTE=zombiefreak;26704508]As I said, black market dealers. You can't regulate them.[/QUOTE] Alright, but why not regulate the legal dealers who are [i]giving the criminals advice on how to cross the border[/i]?
[QUOTE=GunFox;26704498]But that doesn't help this at all. They buy the guns and then leave the country. And a license to own is rarely necessary in the US. Owning a firearm is considered a normal thing. We don't force every citizen to be subjected to unnecessary searches like a criminal. Unless they want a board plane. Then we treat every citizen like a criminal! Hoor-wait. shit.[/QUOTE] So you prevent citizens from going through unnecessary searches like a criminal so criminals can get through?
[QUOTE=Prismatex;26704537]Alright, but why not regulate the legal dealers who are [i]giving the criminals advice on how to cross the border[/i]?[/QUOTE] And how do you plan on doing that? Laws can only go so far. [editline]14th December 2010[/editline] [QUOTE=Camundongo;26704563]So you prevent citizens from going through unnecessary searches like a criminal so criminals can get through?[/QUOTE] We do check citizenship and crime record.
[QUOTE=Prismatex;26704537]Alright, but why not regulate the legal dealers who are [i]giving the criminals advice on how to cross the border[/i]?[/QUOTE] I'd say it's a matter of corruption and giving Law Enforcement more resources to do investigations like this. That's one way of cracking down on this.
[QUOTE=zombiefreak;26704583]And how do you plan on doing that? Laws can only go so far. [editline]14th December 2010[/editline] We do check citizenship and crime record.[/QUOTE] Jeez, I dunno, by making it illegal?
[QUOTE=Prismatex;26704537]Alright, but why not regulate the legal dealers who are [I]giving the criminals advice on how to cross the border[/I]?[/QUOTE] Have you ever crossed the US-mexico border? Nobody asks you for anything when you walk into mexico, you could literally just CARRY weapons over and no one would stop you. It's just like a couple gates and suddenly everyone is tanned and yelling at you.
[QUOTE=Camundongo;26704658]Jeez, I dunno, by making it illegal?[/QUOTE] You completely disregarded the latter half of my post. Making shit illegal doesn't necessarily inhibit it's activity, it's the actual enforcement of it.
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;26704671]Have you ever crossed the US-mexico border? Nobody asks you for anything when you walk into mexico, you could literally just CARRY weapons over and no one would stop you. It's just like a couple gates and suddenly everyone is tanned and yelling at you.[/QUOTE] That doesn't magically make it alright. And to address zombiefreak, I'm not entirely sure that the citizenship and criminal records are wokring 100% here.
[QUOTE=Camundongo;26704745]That doesn't magically make it alright. [/QUOTE] Having gunsmiths register themselves or whatever you're suggesting isn't going to stem the flow of guns into Mexico, because it's really goddamn easy to get the guns in. Anyone can make guns, hell, my step-grandfather was a gunsmith.
[QUOTE=Camundongo;26704745]That doesn't magically make it alright. And to address zombiefreak, I'm not entirely sure that the citizenship and criminal records are wokring 100% here.[/QUOTE] They're working as much as they actually can. People can be naturally dodgy of the law (myself included), and never get caught. Making something illegal without proper enforcement doesn't prevent it's use except for law abiding citizens. [editline]14th December 2010[/editline] [QUOTE=sloppy_joes;26704779]Having gunsmiths register themselves or whatever you're suggesting isn't going to stem guns being poured into Mexico, because it's really god damn easy to get the guns in. Anyone can make guns, hell, my step-grandfather was a gunsmith.[/QUOTE] Just to add on to your comment, making something like a sten is extremely easy that the average garage dude can make.
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;26704779]Having gunsmiths register themselves or whatever you're suggesting isn't going to stem guns being poured into Mexico, because it's really god damn easy to get the guns in. Anyone can make guns, hell, my step-grandfather was a gunsmith.[/QUOTE] What I'm suggesting is that people don't sell guns to criminals - which is illegal anway, as far as I know.
[QUOTE=Camundongo;26704827]What I'm suggesting is that people don't sell guns to criminals - which is illegal anway, as far as I know.[/QUOTE] Money speaks louder than morals, to some. Only saying "don't do this, k thanks" isn't going to stop anything.
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;26704842]Money speaks louder than morals, to some.[/QUOTE] It might do, but it's still against the law. [quote=sloppy_joes]Only saying "don't do this, k thanks" isn't going to stop anything.[/quote] Why bother having laws about anything then?
[QUOTE=Camundongo;26704862]It might do, but it's still against the law.[/QUOTE] As I've said before, making something illegal doesn't stop it's use. Look at J-Walking for example, many cops won't prosecute you for it even if they see it. It's a law that isn't enforced, therefore it's possible to skate around it quiet easily.
[QUOTE=Camundongo;26704862]It might do, but it's still against the law.[/QUOTE] I don't know what kind of idealist society you're living in, but making something against the law doesn't really stop that thing from happening. Look at illegal substances in western countries, during prohibition there was a massive underground liquor smuggling society, which the mob profited off immensely. Same deal here.
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;26704886]I don't know what kind of idealist society you're living in, but making something against the law doesn't really stop that thing from happening. Look at illegal substances in western countries, during prohibition there was a massive underground liquor smuggling society, which the mob profited off immensely. Same deal here.[/QUOTE] I agree. Murder is illegal, but people still kill other people. Why do we even make it illegal?
[QUOTE=Camundongo;26704972]I agree. Murder is illegal, but people still kill other people. Why do we even make it illegal?[/QUOTE] Because it's immoral, we can punish people for doing it. I never said that making it illegal won't have some effect on the sale of guns, I just said it wouldn't stop it completely. You can't expect people to stop selling illegal guns by simply making it illegal. That is not an effective method.
[QUOTE=Camundongo;26704972]I agree. Murder is illegal, but people still kill other people. Why do we even make it illegal?[/QUOTE] Because it's much easier to find out when someone dies than telling someone how to cross the boarder.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.