[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;26705013]Because it's immoral, we can punish people for doing it.
I never said that making it illegal won't have some effect on the sale of guns, I just said it wouldn't stop it completely.
You can't expect people to stop selling illegal guns by simply making it illegal. That is not an effective method.[/QUOTE]
Selling illegal guns can also be immoral, and we can also punish people for it. Naturally, more will need to be done than simply making it illegal, but there's nothing wrong with doing so as a first step.
[QUOTE=Dr_Funk;26705077]Selling illegal guns can also be immoral, and we can also punish people for it. Naturally, more will need to be done than simply making it illegal, but there's nothing wrong with doing so as a first step.[/QUOTE]
Which is exactly my point.
[QUOTE=Dr_Funk;26705077]Selling illegal guns can also be immoral, and we can also punish people for it. Naturally, more will need to be done than simply making it illegal, but there's nothing wrong with doing so as a first step.[/QUOTE]
It is illegal to sell illegal guns.
WHAT DO YOU THINK ILLEGAL GUNS ARE
[QUOTE=zombiefreak;26705092]It is illegal to sell illegal guns.
WHAT DO YOU THINK ILLEGAL GUNS ARE[/QUOTE]
Try looking at the context next time, champ. I was talking about the morality of selling illegal guns - guns which would become illegal if it was made a crime to sell guns to criminals.
[QUOTE=Dr_Funk;26705646] guns which would become illegal if it was made a crime to sell guns to criminals.[/QUOTE]
you lost me there.
There are a lot of good sources and arguments for gun control... but this isn't one.
[QUOTE=Camundongo;26701176]First of all, I apologise about the rather biast language used in the article, but it does raise interesting questions about licensing and the sale of firearms (or more importantly, the people who sell them).
[url=http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-weapons-fuel-mexican-drug-wars-2159590.html]Source[/url][/QUOTE]
Interesting, because automatics aren't legal for general sale here. Neither are .50 BMG machine guns, nor full-auto AK-47s and AR-15s. Nice source...UK, too, which explains the massive ignorance behind it all. Nannyland FTW, eh, guys? With informed people like this, it's no wonder you guys don't control 1/4th of the world anymore.
Also, "sniper rifles" aren't available either. And it's laughable to even call anything in .223 caliber a "sniping" weapon - DM at most, and that's pushing it. These people don't even know what they're talking about..Class 3 dealers aren't especially common, and they're certainly not handing off assault weapons to non-citizens at a reasonable rate (the process to get one is long, hard, and is frequently interrupted). I've seen footage of people with M60s over there - are you telling me they walked into Dave's gun mall and walked off with a cart full of machine guns? Give me a break and don't make me laugh - this stuff was already disproven anyway, since automatics are [I]not[/I] easily available for legal use in the US (and any coming from here are probably illegal sold or stolen anyway). The cartels have so much money they could probably buy whatever they want from sellers on the black market, for cheaper than legally-aquired NFA weapons.
Blaming the US for cartels using obviously illegal ordinance is like saying that Mikhail Kalashnikov is a murderer for inventing the most used weapon on the planet, or that it's a car manufacturer's fault you drove it off a cliff. Somebody's not doing their rightful part, and here's a hint: it isn't the people "selling" these guns.
Next they'll claim silencers make firearms hearing-safe and imperceptible to people standing ten feet away.
[QUOTE=Camundongo;26704563]So you prevent citizens from going through unnecessary searches like a criminal so criminals can get through?[/QUOTE]
So you treat regular citizens like criminals because you are so afraid of criminals that you are willing to let them?
[QUOTE=Jenkem;26707057]Blaming the US for cartels using obviously illegal ordinance is like saying that Mikhail Kalashnikov is a murderer for inventing the most used weapon on the planet, or that it's a car manufacturer's fault you drove it off a cliff. Somebody's not doing their rightful part, and here's a hint: it isn't the people "selling" these guns.[/QUOTE]
Another quality Jenkem post.
You familiar with the concept of a serial number? When authorities find US-legal weapons in the hands of Mexican cartels, they're able to trace them back right to the gun shops they came from.
[quote]The overwhelming majority of weapons fuelling Mexico's drugs war are being sold in the US, where gun dealers are responsible for supplying at least 60,000 of the illegally trafficked firearms seized by the authorities since 2006.[/quote]
Or do you think that they just pull the numbers out of their ass?
60,000 guns sold in the US, most probably without the knowledge of the gun store owner, to cartels.
[QUOTE=Prismatex;26707226]Another quality Jenkem post.
You familiar with the concept of a serial number? When authorities find US-legal weapons in the hands of Mexican cartels, they're able to trace them back right to the gun shops they came from.
Or do you think that they just pull the numbers out of their ass?
60,000 guns sold in the US, most probably without the knowledge of the gun store owner, to cartels.[/QUOTE]
So what do you suggest be done about it?
[QUOTE=Dr_Funk;26705646]guns which would become illegal if it was made a crime to sell guns to criminals.[/QUOTE]
Huh? I think you derped. It [i]is[/i] a crime to sell guns to criminals..
[QUOTE=Prismatex;26707226]Another quality Jenkem post.
You familiar with the concept of a serial number? When authorities find US-legal weapons in the hands of Mexican cartels, they're able to trace them back right to the gun shops they came from.
Or do you think that they just pull the numbers out of their ass?
60,000 guns sold in the US, most probably without the knowledge of the gun store owner, to cartels.[/QUOTE]
Except, again, you're telling me something that's completely impossible. Class 3 weapons aren't getting into cartels' hands through legal channels. End of story.
Are you familiar with NFA regulations? I don't think a person, or even several, ordered 60,000 outdated Class 3 firearms at tremendous cost to give to non-citizens. Something would've been done, because the government would've noticed (it has to go through the ATF, who can deny your requests at a whim - and 60,000 in a short period of time would've gotten their attention).
This is just the government spewing out more garbage and jacked-up figures to manipulate the public's thinking, as usual. The US weapon laws aren't at fault. They cannot be, in this case - what the article is implying is not possible to do through completely legitimate channels anywhere in the US. Also, you conveniently ignored other points I made, such as them referring to .223 "sniper" rifles, which don't exist. The source talking about a weapon chambering something that weak as being anything more than a DM weapon is hilarious.
[QUOTE=GunFox;26707317]So what do you suggest be done about it?[/QUOTE]
He'll probably suggest more restrictions on "assault" weapons or just an outright ban, since that'll obviously fix criminals illegally getting a hold of weapons that aren't legal to buy to begin with.
Mexico is a country south of the United States
[QUOTE=Kalibos;26707648]Mexico is a country south of the United States[/QUOTE]
I was pretty sure it was north and everyone in Mexico liked ice hockey.
[QUOTE=GunFox;26701879]AK-47's aren't being sold. They are exceedingly rare and expensive inside the United States.
.50 caliber machine guns aren't being sold. Again, M2 browning machineguns are extremely rare and expensive. Not to mention ammunition costs. And no they aren't "armor piercing" rounds. They are just .50 caliber rounds. A 12 gauge slug will go through just about anything, but it isn't an "armor piercing round." You would be hard pressed to find a vest capable of reliably stopping a basic FMJ 7.62x51 NATO round, but that doesn't mean it is "armor piercing".
.223 caliber "sniper rifles" are actually just bolt action hunting rifles.[/QUOTE]
While I agree with most of that post, If you've seen pictures of captured cartel-caches, those folks have some really, really heavy hardware. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they had M2s among them. The cartels are basically much better equipted than the government and military in Mexico.
While that sort of shit is hard to find in the US, the reason for that is because legit owners are hard to come by, and all the gun-runners that do have them have a much higher demand for them down in Mexico and less trouble selling them there, of course they are going to sell them there. Not a whole lot of people in the US trying to illegally acquire .50 armaments, and the ones that do usually get caught.
Ive seen better pictures, but google images isn't always exactly reliable for finding good pictures so here is what off the top of my head...
[IMG]http://www.allaboutaddiction.com/addiction/wp-content/uploads/mexico_drug_war.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://tucsoncitizen.com/morgue/files/2008/11/l102060-1.jpg[/IMG]
fuckin pimping, broseph
[IMG]http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/CRIME/07/20/us.mexico.cartel.reward/art.guns.gulf.cartel.afp.gi.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;26707874]While I agree with most of that post, If you've seen pictures of captured cartel-caches, those folks have some really, really heavy hardware. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they had M2s among them. The cartels are basically much better equipted than the government and military in Mexico.[/quote]
None of that looks particularly impressive. The hand grenades are about the most impressive thing in any of those pictures. The Barret .50's are at least .50 caliber rifles, but they remain rifles.
Of course the hand grenades, M203's, 40mm grenades, short barreled rifles, and the vests all were probably stolen. The vests in particular given that they still appear to have some sort of police identifier on them.
[QUOTE=Jenkem;26707374]Except, again, you're telling me something that's completely impossible. Class 3 weapons aren't getting into cartels' hands through legal channels. End of story.
Are you familiar with NFA regulations? I don't think a person, or even several, ordered 60,000 outdated Class 3 firearms at tremendous cost to give to non-citizens. Something would've been done, because the government would've noticed (it has to go through the ATF, who can deny your requests at a whim - and 60,000 in a short period of time would've gotten their attention).[/quote]
I never said Class 3 weapons were being sold to cartels, and the article doesn't say that either. At least 60,000 weapons legally sold in the US, mostly semi-automatic hunting rifles, have been found in Mexico.
[quote]He'll probably suggest more restrictions on "assault" weapons or just an outright ban, since that'll obviously fix criminals illegally getting a hold of weapons that aren't legal to buy to begin with.[/QUOTE]
If you would read the thread, which is obviously too hard for you, you would see that I had been suggesting more stringent enforcement of current laws. It looks like it's already happening, since the Feds have already opened an investigation into one of the gun store chains mentioned in the article.
[QUOTE=Camundongo;26702672]I'm not sure when the right wing felt that mexican drug dealers should be able to buy guns, but it does seem like a fairly major policy shift from "shoot the bastards".
Or is this just to give them a fair chance?[/QUOTE]
Foreign citizens can't buy firearms in the United States, dipshit
[editline]15th December 2010[/editline]
[QUOTE=Prismatex;26702762]All OP said was B, that there's a loophole, and the cartel guys are exploiting that. You can't argue that the gun store owners don't have some inkling of what's going on - if a guy comes in and buys 14 AK-style hunting rifles with cash, wouldn't that set off some alarm bells?[/QUOTE]
Not really considering Obama-Mania (where Kentucky alone had the amount of firearms purchased between November 2008 and April 2010 actually outnumber the total population of the state), with those weapons banned from sale at gunshops for 10 years, along with the fact firearms can only be purchased using cash money
[editline]15th December 2010[/editline]
[QUOTE=Camundongo;26703255]And that doesn't worry you at all? I respect that states need individuality, and should be proud of it, but selling criminals firearms should be federal offense. Hell, they can take the firearms across an international border, what stops them crossing to neighbouring states?[/QUOTE]
Actually it's a federal felony to lie on the form to purchase a firearm, and another federal felony to cross a International border with even ammunition without express written permission from the Government
Also what about Neighboring states? what do you want, Internal Passports like the Soviet Union?
[editline]15th December 2010[/editline]
[QUOTE=JDK721;26703298]I hope that they can prove he knowingly sold firearms to a felon or to someone who he knew would use the firearms illegally and charge him with a felony.
he deserves it.[/QUOTE]
Pretty hard to prove, considering he can rake in money all day long since he isn't liable for what happens to the weapons he sells to someone who passes the NICS background check at the point of purchase once it leaves his front door, and the drug cartels can always pay some 18 or 21 year old with no felonies to act as a proxy to buy the guns for them
[editline]15th December 2010[/editline]
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;26707874]While I agree with most of that post, If you've seen pictures of captured cartel-caches, those folks have some really, really heavy hardware. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they had M2s among them. The cartels are basically much better equipted than the government and military in Mexico.
While that sort of shit is hard to find in the US, the reason for that is because legit owners are hard to come by, and all the gun-runners that do have them have a much higher demand for them down in Mexico and less trouble selling them there, of course they are going to sell them there. Not a whole lot of people in the US trying to illegally acquire .50 armaments, and the ones that do usually get caught.
Ive seen better pictures, but google images isn't always exactly reliable for finding good pictures so here is what off the top of my head...
[img_thumb]http://www.allaboutaddiction.com/addiction/wp-content/uploads/mexico_drug_war.jpg[/img_thumb]
[img_thumb]http://tucsoncitizen.com/morgue/files/2008/11/l102060-1.jpg[/img_thumb]
fuckin pimping, broseph
[img_thumb]http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/CRIME/07/20/us.mexico.cartel.reward/art.guns.gulf.cartel.afp.gi.jpg[/img_thumb][/QUOTE]
The only weapon I can spot in there that's clearly was bought in the US is the bullpup Barrett rifle
Also why did you invoke my name without me even posting?
[editline]15th December 2010[/editline]
[QUOTE=JDK721;26703337]not necessarily. some gun dealers actually have integrity and would rather not go to prison.[/QUOTE]
It's very hard to prove a illegal sell, considering the fact felonless 18 year olds are abundant and the gunshop owners have no obligation to refuse sell of a firearm if the purchaser can pass the background check at the counter
Most of the time you hear of gunshops being shut down is due to them fucking up paperwork, and fucking up the taxes
[editline]15th December 2010[/editline]
[QUOTE=zombiefreak;26703972]"In Texas, 3,800 gun dealers are freely permitted to sell high-powered equipment such as AR-15s, AK-47s, and armour-piercing .50-calibre machine guns"
Fuck, if that was true i'd be shitting my pants and/or buying one right now. Automatics are so fucking expensive (>$20,000), and AK-47s, and M2s go for around $100k, and they have to background check the person, and go through extensive paperwork.[/QUOTE]
First off, Automatics can be in the sub ten-thousand dollar range, secondly, m2s go for $30k, AK-47s are like $12k, and what not
I think Armor Piercing bullets may be legal
Though I know a guy who sold his full-auto SKS (yes it was fucking legal) for $1700 for some fucked up reason I can't comprehend other than not wanting it stolen while he's off in the Army, like my Uncle's Full Auto AK47 he had from Vietnam he smuggled back to be registered in the 1968 amnesty for shit you weren't supposed to have
[editline]16th December 2010[/editline]
[QUOTE=Camundongo;26704094]Randomised checks on people who have bought firearms. If you can present the firearm and the license to hold it, not a problem. If you brought a firearm, and you can't provide evidence of it's location, you need to provide a license for it and within a certain timeframe the firearm. Still open for abuse, I agree, but harder to fake than the current system.[/QUOTE]
HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA, oh wow
You do realize Texas has no gun registration and licensing at all, and forbidden to do so under the Texas Constitution
Not only that, but checks on people who are legally exercising their civil right to bare arms is a violation of both the constitutions of Texas and the United States, with a registry being implicitly banned by the Texas Constitution, and explicitly banned by Federal law on the Federal Level
[editline]16th December 2010[/editline]
[QUOTE=Prismatex;26703989]That still doesn't nullify the point of the article, which is that some gun dealers in Texas have been knowingly selling guns to cartel members.[/QUOTE]
And they have no obligation to not sell firearms to the persons, even if they state the intended illegal use of said firearms, as all statements are fictional stories until proven otherwise, if they can:
A: Prove Continuous U.S. Residence In State Of Purchase For A Period Longer Than 90 Days
B: Present A Valid Hunting License As Issued By The State Of Purchase
C: Fill Out The ATF Form 4473 Which Includes Name, Valid Address Proved With A Utility Bill, Valid Visa Status In The United States
D: Pass And Approved By The Federal National Instant Criminal Background Check System
E: Pay For The Purchase Fully In United State Dollars
[editline]16th December 2010[/editline]
[QUOTE=Prismatex;26707226]Another quality Jenkem post.
You familiar with the concept of a serial number? When authorities find US-legal weapons in the hands of Mexican cartels, they're able to trace them back right to the gun shops they came from.
Or do you think that they just pull the numbers out of their ass?
60,000 guns sold in the US, most probably without the knowledge of the gun store owner, to cartels.[/QUOTE]
And out of a batch of 80,000, the ATF can only get pings on the serial numbers of 11,000, with a even smaller number of 9,300 being traceable to the civilian gunshops, even then a vast majority of those were legally sold to legal owners, both of which have no legal liability due to the fact the owner bought the weapon legally, and private sales of firearms are legal
[editline]16th December 2010[/editline]
[QUOTE=Sharp;26707324]Huh? I think you derped. It [i]is[/i] a crime to sell guns to criminals..[/QUOTE]
No it isn't
[editline]16th December 2010[/editline]
[QUOTE=Prismatex;26709667]I never said Class 3 weapons were being sold to cartels, and the article doesn't say that either. At least 60,000 weapons legally sold in the US, mostly semi-automatic hunting rifles, have been found in Mexico.
If you would read the thread, which is obviously too hard for you, you would see that I had been suggesting more stringent enforcement of current laws. It looks like it's already happening, since the Feds have already opened an investigation into one of the gun store chains mentioned in the article.[/QUOTE]
Oh wow, [I]sixty thousand[/I], so [B][I]big[/I][/B] number considering 4 million firearms were sold in Kentucky alone in 2008-2009
[QUOTE=Broseph_;26726734]No it isn't[/quote]
What do you mean? How isn't it a crime to sell a gun to a criminal? If they don't pass the background check, etc. and the dealer sells them the gun anyway, then it is a crime. I'm on your side, btw.
[QUOTE=Sharp;26727508]What do you mean? How isn't it a crime to sell a gun to a criminal? If they don't pass the background check, etc. and the dealer sells them the gun anyway, then it is a crime. I'm on your side, btw.[/QUOTE]
Define "criminal"
[QUOTE=Mr_Razzums;26702358]I'm the most pro gun, and pro gun control supporter. Ironic but I really don't give a shit if ammo casings are encoded with IDs to trace shit back to the owner. Background checks are too easy to pass, I'm sure the government can figure something out.[/QUOTE]
I'm sure the government will try and find more ways to fuck us over instead of the cartel.
I'm pretty sure they've been doing that for the past 30 years or so.
Oh my god broseph_ I tip my hat to you.
[editline]16th December 2010[/editline]
[QUOTE=Broseph_;26727982]Define "criminal"[/QUOTE]
He means if you sell to a person who fails the criminal check.
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