• Czech Parliament Approves Citizens’ Right to Bear Arms
    183 replies, posted
[QUOTE=AaronM202;52419903]Why does it seem like its impossible for even one of these threads to exist without this cartoonish level condescension? Like, nevermind being for or against it, do you really think implying your average american is dodging gunfire on a day to day basis is something thats even remotely close to reality? Like what the fuck does that even mean dude.[/QUOTE] Thats one thing I learned from this thread. I'm surprised I make it to work everyday without being gunned down by rampaging hillybilly warlords, or "infamously trigger happy" police everyday! Its a wonder I still support keeping the monstrous and toxic 2nd amendment. The funny thing is, this thread had nothing to do with America at all and somehow it spiraled into being entirely about america and american gun laws somehow. I'm sure the Czechs will find a way to implement this right in a way that works for them, and I wouldn't have it any other way. I'm happy for any gun enthusiasts in the Czech republic.
[QUOTE=Durandal;52420003]The funny thing is, this thread had nothing to do with America at all and somehow it spiraled into being entirely about america and american gun laws somehow.[/QUOTE] Mainly because of Americans going on about rights infringement probably
[QUOTE=RainbowStalin;52419340]Your posts read like satire. Cars hammers and axes exist to perform functions other than kill people, guns were made for that purpose. And as much as people like you like to pretend otherwise [B]you can't kill the same number of people with any of those compared to a firearm[/B]. I don't really have anything to say in response to your freedom rant but I guess that's another part of American culture I don't understand.[/QUOTE] [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Melbourne_car_attack"]Oh[/URL] [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Berlin_attack"]how[/URL] [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Nice_attack"]wrong[/URL] [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Calgary_stabbing"]you[/URL] [URL="http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/alabama-murder-suspect-ax-kill-people-article-1.2763768"]are[/URL]. Killing with anything is fairly easy, and mass killings regardless of the controls and mechanisms in effect, will always happen.
[QUOTE=bdd458;52419291]It's a retort to both that just because you're an American you're pro-gun, and that if you're not American you're anti-gun.[/QUOTE] :what: You pointed out the fact that some people (once again, a minority) are pro-gun in countries in Europe, Like it was some epic end all argument, I pointed out the fact that people in yours were not. Let's put it this way, We have a very low rate of gun crime in the U.K, mostly stemming from gangs, now if you increase the legality of acquiring guns, this rate will go up will it not? This rate going up increases deaths, is the fact that some people want [I]Easier[/I] access to guns, and the right to take them home worth innocent people dying, that is what makes the "hobby" of shooting so dangerous, the system can be abused, I think we can agree that the vast majority of guns are weapons are designed to kill, and as such they are much easier to kill with than say a car, I'm at work ATM (and on a phone) so I can't bring up the study but there was a study done that hypothesisised that killing with a gun and killing with a knife are quite literal different things to the brain, with a knife you need to be up close, with a gun you do not, creating a mental disconnect. I've shot a gun in the past in Vietnam, I know it can be deemed as a hobby, but is your hobby worth innocent people getting hurt?
[QUOTE=NovaConsors;52419279]And people will also use cars, hammers and axes for things they weren't intended for, but are you paranoid about any of those tools? I find it funny that you can't seem to trust your everyday citizen with a gun, but you probably don't bat an eye at the two ton death machines speeding at 50mph all around you every day. If you can't trust your fellow man, that's a personal issue, all freedoms come at a cost, and if you have no love for freedom, I have no love for you. And personally, I'd rather be a hoplophile than a hoplophobe.[/QUOTE] Guns are extremely efficient and easy tools to use, pulling a trigger from close distance is far easier than bludgeoning someone with a rusty hammer on a street. Sure, cars are dangerous as well but honestly it's easier to stop cars and control traffic than people running around with concealed arms. There is a huge difference between killing someone with a gun and being up close with a blunt object.
[QUOTE=maxspeed3006;52411153]Hope this is not a trend that's going spread to the rest of europe.[/QUOTE] If the people want it, let it be that way. Personally I'd love own a firearm because Poland is full of petty criminals and hooligans, but I wouldn't want it to be easy to get because Poland is full of petty criminals and hooligans
I don't get it when people start calling a gun a 'tool' A knife is a tool because you use it to cut stuff like vegetables, meat, ropes, etc. but it an also be used as a weapon. A gun only serves a primary function, either to injure or kill. How many times you see someone using a gun to start a bonfire, or use it to shoot ropes? Its ineffective. You could say its a tool when it comes to hunting, but you use it to kill the animal you're hunting anyway isn't it?
[QUOTE=Ignhelper;52421074]I don't get it when people start calling a gun a 'tool' A knife is a tool because you use it to cut stuff like vegetables, meat, ropes, etc. but it an also be used as a weapon. A gun only serves a primary function, either to injure or kill. How many times you see someone using a gun to start a bonfire, or use it to shoot ropes? Its ineffective. You could say its a tool when it comes to hunting, but you use it to kill the animal you're hunting anyway isn't it?[/QUOTE] Because it is a tool, you dip. :v: Literally an object you use for specific activities that the object was designed for. A tool.
[QUOTE=Redcoat893;52420524] You pointed out the fact that some people (once again, a minority) are pro-gun in countries in Europe, Like it was some epic end all argument, I pointed out the fact that people in yours were not.[/quote] You've now missed the point TWICE. congratulations. It's a specific response to the condescending remarks of "of course only Americans are defending guns". This statement implies (and states) quite a few wrong things. Firstly, that only Americans like/use guns. Secondly, that just because you're an American you must like/defend guns. That only the other side of the coin is the correct and enlightened ideal. [QUOTE=Redcoat893;52420524]but is your hobby worth innocent people getting hurt?[/QUOTE] Mate, ignoring your loaded question here, the issue with the US goes far beyond guns (which are an easy scapegoat). The main issue that causes the violence in the US is hands down poverty. Poverty leads to some cyclical issues, such as the war on drugs, gangs, things of that nature (In fact, the FBI even stated that around 2009, I think it still holds up today) - which feed off of violence. But their root cause is low economic opportunity and status. Not the guns. More gun control is going to do what exactly for those situations? Not much, I can tell you that. Its shortsighted to say that guns are the problem in those situations. Besides that, it is extremely significant to know that the murder rate has been steadily dropping since the 90s, and continues to do so. Suicides have sadly seen a bit of an uptick, but in order to help that we do need to change our cultural perceptions of mental health and be much more willing to actually help the mentally ill.
[QUOTE=SirJon;52420889]If the people want it, let it be that way. Personally I'd love own a firearm because Poland is full of petty criminals and hooligans, but I wouldn't want it to be easy to get because Poland is full of petty criminals and hooligans[/QUOTE] Yeah, I'd say that's the crux of the issue for me. It's safer for a reasonable and sane person to be armed, but gun deregulation applies to everybody including those you want to be protected from in the first place. It just means increasing lethality all around, and I don't think additional personal protection is worth it if it brings along increased danger. I think it's a tradeoff that would be a net negative for most European countries, especially those with crime issues.
[QUOTE=_Axel;52421137]Yeah, I'd say that's the crux of the issue for me. It's safer for a reasonable and sane person to be armed, but gun deregulation applies to everybody including those you want to be protected from in the first place. It just means increasing lethality all around, and I don't think additional personal protection is worth it if it brings along increased danger. I think it's a tradeoff that would be a net negative for most European countries, especially those with crime issues.[/QUOTE] Aye, I just wish firing ranges weren't so god damn expensive here so I could at least have some safe, responsible fun with firearms without having to sell a kidney.
[QUOTE=Redcoat893;52420524]:what: You pointed out the fact that some people (once again, a minority) are pro-gun in countries in Europe, Like it was some epic end all argument, I pointed out the fact that people in yours were not. Let's put it this way, We have a very low rate of gun crime in the U.K, mostly stemming from gangs, now if you increase the legality of acquiring guns, this rate will go up will it not? This rate going up increases deaths, is the fact that some people want [I]Easier[/I] access to guns, and the right to take them home worth innocent people dying, that is what makes the "hobby" of shooting so dangerous, the system can be abused, I think we can agree that the vast majority of guns are weapons are designed to kill, and as such they are much easier to kill with than say a car, I'm at work ATM (and on a phone) so I can't bring up the study but there was a study done that hypothesisised that killing with a gun and killing with a knife are quite literal different things to the brain, with a knife you need to be up close, with a gun you do not, creating a mental disconnect. I've shot a gun in the past in Vietnam, I know it can be deemed as a hobby, but is your hobby worth innocent people getting hurt?[/QUOTE] From what I know about your country's laws, I think you've got the acquisition process almost right. The technical bans are dumb though, same for the self-defense laws.
[QUOTE=LTJGPliskin;52411180]I don't see the problem with responsible gun ownership. Besides, if someone wanted to use a gun illegally, they'd get their hands on one anyways from the black market.[/QUOTE] Where do you think black market purchases come from? Straw purchases from legal gun sellers. [editline]1st July 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;52411223]Czech Republic has some fairly lax gunlaws as is. You are legally able to own automatics, with a relatively easy to pass background check. Either way, I'm glad to hear this. More countries need the right to keep and bear arms.[/QUOTE] What about countries which already have low crime rates? Japan, for example? You're just going to make the world less safe [editline]1st July 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Dom Pyroshark;52421082]Because it is a tool, you dip. :v: Literally an object you use for specific activities that the object was designed for. A tool.[/QUOTE] A tool for killing people?
[QUOTE=bdd458;52421087]You've now missed the point TWICE. congratulations. It's a specific response to the condescending remarks of "of course only Americans are defending guns". This statement implies (and states) quite a few wrong things. Firstly, that only Americans like/use guns. Secondly, that just because you're an American you must like/defend guns. That only the other side of the coin is the correct and enlightened ideal. Mate, ignoring your loaded question here, the issue with the US goes far beyond guns (which are an easy scapegoat). The main issue that causes the violence in the US is hands down poverty. Poverty leads to some cyclical issues, such as the war on drugs, gangs, things of that nature (In fact, the FBI even stated that around 2009, I think it still holds up today) - which feed off of violence. But their root cause is low economic opportunity and status. Not the guns. More gun control is going to do what exactly for those situations? Not much, I can tell you that. Its shortsighted to say that guns are the problem in those situations. Besides that, it is extremely significant to know that the murder rate has been steadily dropping since the 90s, and continues to do so. Suicides have sadly seen a bit of an uptick, but in order to help that we do need to change our cultural perceptions of mental health and be much more willing to actually help the mentally ill.[/QUOTE] I'm on a phone, so a few words might be autocorrected wrong here and there, and excuse the brief sentences. A) That wasn't me that posted that you dolt, we're not a hive mind.Second it is technically a correct remark, so I don't know what you are getting worked up over, the majority of people defending guns are American, and it has one of the biggest "Gun Cultures". I've never said that Americans shouldn't have guns, you've had a historical reason to use them, and at the moment I see no way to remove them as a factor with the US in its current state. I'm arguing that there is little reason or benefit to have them in European countries. B) Yes, but guns exasperate the issue, it's a viscous cycle, oh have a higher access to guns, you have a higher rate of violence and crime, I'm no expert, but you cannot deny that guns are a issue with crime in the US,it's shortsighted to say that they are not a factor in the crime rate. It's good that the murder rate is dropping, but look at the stats on the previous page, dropping from a high rate is still a high rate. I agree that more focus should be put on Mental Health in both our countries though. Sorry, might be out of service for a couple of days but I'll be back on Monday, it's not because I've gone off in a sulk :downs:.
Ofc you're not a hivenind that's my fucking point????? [editline]1st July 2017[/editline] [t]http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2013/05/SDT-2013-05-gun-crime-1-1.png[/t] [t]http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2013/05/SDT-2013-05-gun-crime-1-3.png[/t] [quote]Researchers have studied the decline in firearm crime and violent crime for many years, and though there are theories to explain the decline, there is no consensus among those who study the issue as to why it happened. There also is debate about the extent of gun ownership in the U.S., although no disagreement that the U.S. has more civilian firearms, both total and per capita, than other nations. Compared with other developed nations, the U.S. has a higher homicide rate and higher rates of gun ownership, but not higher rates for all other crimes. (See Chapter 5 for more details.) In the months since the mass shooting at a Newtown, Conn., elementary school in December, the public is paying close attention to the topic of firearms; according to a recent Pew Research Center survey (Pew Research Center, April 2013) no story received more public attention from mid-March to early April than the debate over gun control. Reducing crime has moved up as a priority for the public in polling this year. Mass shootings are a matter of great public interest and concern. They also are a relatively small share of shootings overall. According to a Bureau of Justice Statistics review, homicides that claimed at least three lives accounted for less than 1% of all homicide deaths from 1980 to 2008. These homicides, most of which are shootings, increased as a share of all homicides from 0.5% in 1980 to 0.8% in 2008, according to the bureau’s data. A Congressional Research Service report, using a definition of four deaths or more, counted 547 deaths from mass shootings in the U.S. from 1983 to 2012.2 Looking at the larger topic of firearm deaths, there were 31,672 deaths from guns in the U.S. in 2010. Most (19,392) were suicides (61%); the gun suicide rate has been higher than the gun homicide rate since at least 1981, and the gap is wider than it was in 1981.[/quote] [url]http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-since-1993-peak-public-unaware/[/url] 1993-2010 saw a 49% drop, that's a huge drop and to dismiss that as "one large number to another" is disingenous and intellectually dishonest. Much of that drop did occur by 2000, however the fact remains that it has not bounced back up and rather has steadied out or is decreasing slower is telling.
Gratz to the Czechs!! As for the whole Europeans all having guns thing. I can kinda see where people are coming from. Although I notice some heavy hypocrisy here. A lot of people in this thread believe american gun laws should be stricter and base that off of what happens in Europe while simultaneously saying in this thread that "WELL IT WORKS FOR AMERICA BUT IT WON'T WORK HERE CUZ OF BLABLABLA" And I agree personally that you can compare the two on this matter. Wherever gun ownership is high there is less crime for obvious reasons. Vice versa with low gun ownership areas. The only way to make a place safe from mass shootings is to literally take away ALL OF THE GUNS. That's why i'm a heavy believer in ALL OF IT IS OKAY OR NONE OF IT IS. It is true that a country with no guns is safer than a country with guns (ignoring guns that law enforcement and military have of course). And again when I say no guns I mean you literally have no black market for it, made sure every household is clear of a firearm. Of course that's pretty much impossible now. Imo there shouldn't be restrictions of firearms, it's silly how there even is restrictions, you're only harming good people in the end. The guns are already here, stop trying to hold back good citizens. I believe all good citizens should be allowed to own any firearm of their choosing. (Depends on the country of course)
[QUOTE=Episode;52421779]Gratz to the Czechs!! As for the whole Europeans all having guns thing. I can kinda see where people are coming from. Although I notice some heavy hypocrisy here. A lot of people in this thread believe american gun laws should be stricter and base that off of what happens in Europe while simultaneously saying in this thread that "WELL IT WORKS FOR AMERICA BUT IT WON'T WORK HERE CUZ OF BLABLABLA" And I agree personally that you can compare the two on this matter. Wherever gun ownership is high there is less crime for obvious reasons. Vice versa with low gun ownership areas. The only way to make a place safe from mass shootings is to literally take away ALL OF THE GUNS. That's why i'm a heavy believer in ALL OF IT IS OKAY OR NONE OF IT IS. It is true that a country with no guns is safer than a country with guns (ignoring guns that law enforcement and military have of course). And again when I say no guns I mean you literally have no black market for it, made sure every household is clear of a firearm. Of course that's pretty much impossible now. Imo there shouldn't be restrictions of firearms, it's silly how there even is restrictions, you're only harming good people in the end. The guns are already here, stop trying to hold back good citizens. I believe all good citizens should be allowed to own any firearm of their choosing. (Depends on the country of course)[/QUOTE] I don't think anybody who's against guns has ever said "It works for America". The point is that it doesn't work for America.
Oh, I didn't even know something like that is happening here... Well, guess it's time to support CZ industry
[QUOTE=maxspeed3006;52411153]Hope this is not a trend that's going spread to the rest of europe.[/QUOTE] firearms and the right to bear them are not the problem. it is the sociosphere around them.
[QUOTE=proboardslol;52421924]I don't think anybody who's against guns has ever said "It works for America". The point is that it doesn't work for America.[/QUOTE] America. Is. Doing. Fine. Actually we are doing much better than you would expect, given the density of guns we have.
[QUOTE=NovaConsors;52422841]America. Is. Doing. Fine. Actually we are doing much better than you would expect, given the density of guns we have.[/QUOTE] Thanks for clearing that up, I was really not sure about this. Finally someone who can confirm this.
[QUOTE=NovaConsors;52422841]America. Is. Doing. Fine. Actually we are doing much better than you would expect, given the density of guns we have.[/QUOTE] I don't think anyone here is suggesting that the homicide rate is linearly proportional to gun density.
[QUOTE=proboardslol;52421924]I don't think anybody who's against guns has ever said "It works for America". The point is that it doesn't work for America.[/QUOTE] I live in America, and I have a gun, and other people around me have guns, and things are looking pretty okay from my perspective.
[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;52423723]I live in America, and I have a gun, and other people around me have guns, and things are looking pretty okay from my perspective.[/QUOTE] Well cool, I guess your specific experience outweighs the thousands of gun deaths per year, and a 3.43/100000 firearm related homicide rate (higher than every single european and east asian country). In fact, the only countries which have higher firearm-related homicide rates than the United States are 3rd world countries, and there are many countries far poorer than the USA with lower firearms related homicide rates. [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate[/url] But no, you, and a few of your friends, that trumps all the data
[QUOTE=proboardslol;52424397]Well cool, I guess your specific experience outweighs the thousands of gun deaths per year, and a 3.43/100000 firearm related homicide rate (higher than every single european and east asian country). In fact, the only countries which have higher firearm-related homicide rates than the United States are 3rd world countries, and there are many countries far poorer than the USA with lower firearms related homicide rates. [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate[/url] But no, you, and a few of your friends, that trumps all the data[/QUOTE] And I'm sure it has absolutely nothing to do with how we treat the poor. Nope, it's because guns have magical powers that make people kill.
[QUOTE=LTJGPliskin;52411180]I don't see the problem with responsible gun ownership. Besides, if someone wanted to use a gun illegally, they'd get their hands on one anyways from the black market.[/QUOTE] Having a large legal gun market would definitely contribute to the illegal one. Getting a gun here in Denmark isn't easy, you're generally buying a bunch of crap and it's very expensive - as far as I'm aware, of course. Accordingly gun crime is very low. Edit: I can see this has already been debated a bit - maybe I'll return tomorrow to catch up on the statistics, maybe not. Either way, I don't personally have any issue with people having access to guns, as long as they have a valid justification (hunting, target shooting), they store their guns safely and that they get a permit. I'd say driving is a more basic privilege than a gun, so I don't think it's unreasonable to have similar requirements, basically.
[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;52425207]And I'm sure it has absolutely nothing to do with how we treat the poor. Nope, it's because guns have magical powers that make people kill.[/QUOTE] Could it be that vast issues such as homicide rates are influenced by more than a single factor?
[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;52425207]And I'm sure it has absolutely nothing to do with how we treat the poor. Nope, it's because guns have magical powers that make people kill.[/QUOTE] There are way poorer countries with lower firearm homicide rates
[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;52425207]And I'm sure it has absolutely nothing to do with how we treat the poor. Nope, it's because guns have magical powers that make people kill.[/QUOTE] I thought video games were the ones that had the magical powers that made people kill? CNN said so!
[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;52425207]And I'm sure it has absolutely nothing to do with how we treat the poor. Nope, it's because guns have magical powers that make people kill.[/QUOTE] Yes, but [I]what[/I] are they killing with? Again I can't bring up the data ATM (Train) but Guns create a mental disconnect whereas knives don't, this makes it more likely for a crime to occour, it's good that the rate is decreasing, but the murder rate per capita is still a heck of a lot higher than most other western countries.
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