• Thousands sign petition to publicly hang West Virginia man accused of raping, murdering baby girl
    248 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Jarokwa;51169623]if he's guilty, he very much deserves it. and if he is guilty, anyone who stands up for him is just a naive moron. drop the online ''holier than thou'' act, it just makes you look stupid after a while.[/QUOTE] literally no one is standing up for him dude theres a difference between defending the criminal and being against the punishment [QUOTE=Skerion;51169668]If the people standing up for him were also the kind of people who refused to consider the possibility that any murderer/rapist can have the completely worse personalities with just about no merits or believed that rehab for psychopaths is a super easy piece of cake, you'd definitely be right about them being naive.[/QUOTE] I believe in rehab but I really doubt he'll ever recover. Fucker needs prison or anything that isn't blind revenge. This isn't the type of dude that recovers. He's permanently screwed in the head. No one is saying it'd be a piece of cake either. But if you don't try you don't get results. And if you pretend like you'll never try, you'll NEVER get results for sure.
[QUOTE=ZakkShock;51169415]Well this thread is exactly how I pictured it. Euro's saying it's barbaric to execute this guy (it's not.)[/QUOTE] It is
Whats next, executing people in the street even when they surrender? I mean hey, that school shooter, you KNOW he's guilty, but he surrendered, but I mean WHY NOT. Just lay him on the road, and shoot.
[QUOTE=Pretiacruento;51168886]For a guy this deranged, I'd say he'd think he's getting away with it. He can't distinguish right from wrong, surely he doesn't have nothing to lose. Just like Manson in jail - he doesn't sound all that remorseful after all these years. That's my other concern, that fuckheads like these assume that life inprisonment feels like they "got away with it".[/QUOTE] I have to ask... why does it matter? Who cares how much they're enjoying it or don't absolutely hate their time in prison? The only important bit is that, if they can't be rehabilitated, they're [b]kept away from the rest of society.[/b] It sounds like you just want people to suffer because it feels good to you, which is fucked up. [editline]8th October 2016[/editline] As for "he forfeited his rights": no. Fuck that. That's fucking ridiculous. The [b]entire idea of human rights[/b] is that you can't forfeit them or have them stripped away. If you have [b]any provisions[/b] that allow for human rights to be forfeited, [b]even in cases like this[/b], you've compromised the ENTIRE system.
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;51168672]Okay so lock him up for life then either way - society is rid of a murderer, law is upheld despite emotional factors involved, life goes on.[/QUOTE] Either way he's getting the death penalty or 24/7 solitary confinement in fear of losing his life, so I don't really care what he's sentenced to. [editline]8th October 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;51168675]Isn't there a thing on the Bill of Rights talking about something to the effect of cruel and unusual punishment? I'm fundamentally opposed to the death penalty but if you're gonna do it at least give him a lethal injection or something. Don't do this barbaric bullshit, I don't care how much he """""deserves it."""""[/QUOTE] Yes. It doesn't matter how many people are calling for a hanging, it can't happen legally.
[QUOTE=J!NX;51169749]I believe in rehab but I really doubt he'll ever recover. Fucker needs prison or anything that isn't blind revenge. This isn't the type of dude that recovers. He's permanently screwed in the head. No one is saying it'd be a piece of cake either. But if you don't try you don't get results. And if you pretend like you'll never try, you'll NEVER get results for sure.[/QUOTE] I wasn't saying rehab was impossible nor am I against it being used (I'm really hoping it gets vastly improved at some point in the future). I was just mentioning the rehab and the worst-personalities because Jarokwa was acting like everyone who so much as slightly criticizes the act of publicly hanging someone is too naive and childish, and I honestly see defending these kind of people as more of a controversial and unusual thing to do than a necessarily naive one (Unless you're not expecting a negative reaction from doing so). Sorry if I wasn't being clear enough about I felt about Jarokwa's post.
[QUOTE=Megadave;51169666]Are we really trying to defend baby murderers and rapist now?[/QUOTE] Nah we're just trying to regress into the middle ages by brutally murdering those who wrong us.
[QUOTE=paul simon;51168959]Governments need to uphold their own laws, including human rights. So we should all ignore human rights because some [I]criminals[/I] ignore them?[/QUOTE] No, I'm saying for we should do so selectively.
[QUOTE=Govna;51169325]You're never going to get through to them. This is such a tired, old subject, and it always goes around and around in the same circles. They don't seem to understand that rights can be revoked, especially when it comes to people pointlessly violating the rights of innocent people (like that Australian bloke, and as well this guy). We revoke their rights because they have no regard for anybody else's, that makes them dangerous, and we have to segregate/punish them in order to keep ourselves safe and satisfied. It's like when they argue about emotions but then call capital punishment "barbaric". That in and of itself is an emotional argument. What is and isn't barbaric is a matter of opinion, not a matter of fact, but that doesn't matter to them. That's why I always like talking with professionals about this subject: they actually know what they're talking about. Cops, lawyers, doctors, prison employees, and cleanup crewmen know what it's like to deal with these kinds of twisted, broken individuals, and they know how hopelessly lost they are. Most of them don't want to keep these people alive because they know they're dangerous to those of us who just want to live quiet, peaceful lives (in other words: normal people), and because they know it's a complete waste of time what with them being beyond help. And better still, they also know that it's a perfectly natural reaction to feel anger towards them because most humans (again, the normal ones) have a moral compass that tells them right from wrong... and raping, torturing, and murdering innocent people is wrong. But this is what happens when you listen to a bunch of people who have no hands-on experience with this kind of depravity. Odds are they haven't had it inflicted on them personally (and if they have, there's a whole lot of interesting psychological implications I could delve into on why they might sympathize with this guy), they haven't had to clean up the mess that was left afterwards (the gore and viscera of the victim I mean), they haven't had to deal with dead bodies or funeral arrangements in these situations (or in general), they've never had to notify people of terrible things that have been done to their loved ones and have never had to deal with their reactions, they've never had to guard, feed, give medical care to, or care for in general a person like this when they were incarcerated, etc. They're just sheltered is all, but they'll be damned if they'll admit it. They'll twist and turn any which way they can to try and preserve their high-minded idealism about why it's wrong to kill people who do terrible things, and you're never going to convince them they're wrong-- not when discussing murderers and serial killers, not war criminals, not even terrorist leaders. Their opinion is not worth much. Don't get too worked up over it. Just recognize it for what it is and move on. Also, take comfort in the knowledge that a lot of people who have actually dealt with these kinds of cases and the lovely individuals who commit them feel just about the same way as we do... because they actually know better, from experiences so horrific most people would be literally sick to their stomachs if they so much as had to listen to them be recounted. [editline]8 October 2016[/editline] You remember back when bin Laden was killed and people were complaining about his death being celebrated because "he was a person too"? Remember the ones who were shaming people over it and acting like they were better than everybody else because they weren't celebrating? It's kind of the same mindset people against the death penalty have-- [i]not exactly[/i] the same mind you, but it's in the same vein. It's retarded, but they're not going to stop. Not saying this guy is as big of a deal as bin Laden or that I agree he needs to be hanged publicly (I don't think he should be), but him being executed would not be an unfortunate thing at all-- nor would it be unfortunate if we gave others who were definitively guilty the same treatment. The death penalty (contrary to the story they try and spin about loads of innocent people dying) is not something that's imposed like it's no big deal; you have to have [i]a lot[/i] of red marks and a long history on your criminal record to wind up on death row in general in the United States.[/QUOTE] This whole post is stupid because you argue that people who are against the death penalty are using "appeals to emotion..." Then go on to argue that the poor people who deal with this shit and clean up corpses and patrol prisons and treat victims and arrange funerals are so sickened by it, so they believe that public execution by hanging (which, by the way, kinda goes against the Constitution so good luck getting that overthrown with a little petition), is alright, which is also an appeal to emotion based entirely of the emotional responses by the people experiencing the horror (which also means lack of objectivity, which is not how judgement is actually passed in a civilized society. We don't let victims or funeral directors or prison guards or doctors or crime scene cleaners pass judgement, so their opinions on who lives and who dies are utterly worthless in a court of law. We let either an impartial judge or an impartial jury do it. But I shouldn't need to explain that, honestly). Your argument is also based in the idea that these people must be killed in order to protect the sanctity of our society... Without realizing that if a convicted felon is in prison they are no longer a threat to the sanctity of our society. Basically just a bunch of hypocritical nonsense.
All arguments for the death penalty are feel good reactionary responses
[QUOTE=ZakkShock;51169415]Well this thread is exactly how I pictured it. Euro's saying it's barbaric to execute this guy (it's not.)[/QUOTE] "It's not barbaric to hang someone in public" Albeit you're one of those weirdos that goes into a thread about someone stubbing their toe to say how you're going to buy the latest assault rifle with FMJ explosive incendiary ammunition to protect your feet so there is something wrong with you in the first place.
[QUOTE=J!NX;51169749]I believe in rehab but I really doubt he'll ever recover. Fucker needs prison or anything that isn't blind revenge. This isn't the type of dude that recovers. He's permanently screwed in the head. No one is saying it'd be a piece of cake either. But if you don't try you don't get results. And if you pretend like you'll never try, you'll NEVER get results for sure.[/QUOTE] Like I'm not even arguing for rehabilitating this guy. I'm just saying that I see no social or economical value in just executing a dude by hanging.
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;51169974]Like I'm not even arguing for rehabilitating this guy. I'm just saying that I see no social or economical value in just executing a dude by hanging.[/QUOTE] if you ask me does executing him bring the baby back? no does executing him stop others from doing it? no does executing cost less than prison? no so... what does executing him do? give a little sense of satisfied revenge? Ok cool was it worth the effort for 1 dude you could instead have thrown in solitary and be done with? no its like... why even waste money energy on the shit head
[QUOTE=elowin;51169251]We can all agree that killing a person is bad, right? Sure it can be justified when in self-defense or someone else's defense, but killing someone in prison doesn't help anybody so I don't really see how you can justify it. To me it doesn't really seem much better than killing someone because you don't like them or because they made you angry.[/QUOTE] I think there are cases where people deserve death, or where death would likely be the most pragmatic course of action. I think this man deserves death, because he is beyond redemption, and beyond mental help. We shouldn't have the death penalty because our justice system is far from perfect, and innocents will inevitably be caught in the cracks. In an impossible system, where we are able to perfectly determine guilt beyond any doubts, then the death penalty would be justified in only the very most heinous of cases.
[QUOTE=J!NX;51169980]if you ask me does executing him bring the baby back? no does executing him stop others from doing it? no does executing cost less than prison? no so... what does executing him do? give a little sense of satisfied revenge? Ok cool was it worth the effort for 1 dude you could instead have thrown in solitary and be done with? no its like... why even waste money energy on the shit head[/QUOTE] On a purely pragmatic level it just makes no sense. But maybe we should stop appealing so much to emotion and instead worry about the emotions of people who deal with this shit and get sick to their stomach when they think about it.
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;51169998]On a purely pragmatic level it just makes no sense.[/QUOTE] pretty much yeah
[QUOTE=SIRIUS;51169942]All arguments for the death penalty are feel good reactionary responses[/QUOTE] Same as all the rehab arguments lol. You really think someone like this could become a pediatrician? You said so in the last thread, lmao.
[QUOTE=GhillieBacca;51170005]Same as all the rehab arguments lol. You really think someone like this could become a pediatrician? You said so in the last thread, lmao.[/QUOTE] Could I get an ACTUAL argument against it?
I don't set how government sanctioned killing of people via a fallible justice system can be defended as long as there's a possibility that it can kill innocent people. I'd rather have all the people executed in prisons come back to life to drain the federal budget than have a single innocent person die in jail.
Here's the issue with the "KILL HIM" posts: There's a good possibility that [URL="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/28/innocent-death-penalty-study_n_5228854.html"]up to 4 percent of death row inmates sentenced to death are likely actually innocent[/URL] In the United States, since 1973, [URL="http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/innocence-list-those-freed-death-row"]156 inmates on death row have been freed[/URL]. This isn't even covering the fact that if wrongfully executed, states literally attempt to cover up the evidence such as [quote] In the case of Joseph Roger O'Dell III, executed in Virginia in 1997 for a rape and murder, a prosecuting attorney argued in court in 1998 that if posthumous DNA results exonerated O'Dell, "it would be shouted from the rooftops that ... Virginia executed an innocent man." The state prevailed, and the evidence was destroyed[/quote] Regardless of the fact that there is zero motivation to press for wrongful execution, [I]AND[/I] the fact that evidence is actively covered up,[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrongful_execution"] there have still been nine cases of people in the United States who were exonerated [I]AFTER[/I] death, including someone who had a mental age of six.[/URL] This is too much. One wrongful conviction is too much, let alone four percent of all convictions in the united states alone- and who knows how many more, considering the fact that no funding is given to research wrongful conviction after the fact even if it is likely that the person was truly innocent. On top of all of that, this man is merely accused. He isn't even convicted. What if he's innocent? The fact that media even has access to suspect's names and identities is fucking disgusting, he hasn't even been convicted yet and even if he is never found guilty he'll likely still be murdered.
[QUOTE=SIRIUS;51170010]Could I get an ACTUAL argument against it?[/QUOTE] Anyone who's raped a toddler should never be trusted as a pediatrician imo [editline]a[/editline] No matter what this guy does with the rest of his life, he still raped and murdered a child. I don't want to see him anywhere near children ever again.
we all know that signing the petition doesn't mean shit there are laws for a reason and this guy will definitely pay for what he did and that's good enough
if you're going to execute someone just put them in a nitrogen chamber [editline]8th October 2016[/editline] it isn't something that should be turned into a spectacle
[QUOTE=meatwad253;51169627]There's no rehabilitating a sick freak like that bro...[/QUOTE] What makes you say that, exactly? I see a lot people saying this, but nobody really has any sensible justification to it. Who are we to assume he cannot ever change? What if we're wrong? [QUOTE=Megadave;51169666]Are we really trying to defend baby murderers and rapist now?[/QUOTE] From being publicly executed because of an internet poll, yeah why not.
[QUOTE=Govna;51169325]You're never going to get through to them. This is such a tired, old subject, and it always goes around and around in the same circles.[/quote] Don't pretend this is true for both sides, and don't pretend this does not apply to most important, delicate issues. People have strong opinions and it's hard for them to change them. Good job being unnecessarily aggressive and trying to paint yourself as more englightened because "them" don't understand. [quote] They don't seem to understand that rights can be revoked[/quote] Rights are 100% human fabrication, and the reason we create them in the first place is that we would be worse without them. If you think about it, we already partially revoke the right of freedom whenever we throw somebody in jail, and completely when we do that for life. It's an ugly thing, but unfortunately, it's necessary. If there were a way to prevent somebody from harming society while still allowing them to wander freely we would do it. There is absolutely no reason, however, to revoke what could be considered the most important right of all. Is the fact that a few fucked up guys keep living worth the potential for government-approved killings? [quote] , especially when it comes to people pointlessly violating the rights of innocent people (like that Australian bloke, and as well this guy). We revoke their rights because they have no regard for anybody else's, that makes them dangerous, and we have to segregate/[B]punish[/B] them in order to keep ourselves safe and [B]satisfied[/B].[/quote] Please keep in mind these two words. [quote] It's like when they argue about emotions but then call capital punishment "barbaric". That in and of itself is an emotional argument. What is and isn't barbaric is a matter of opinion, not a matter of fact, but that doesn't matter to them.[/quote] Yes, so keeping somebody alive is a matter of emotion. We (the against-death-penalty group) are emotional. However, [B]you[/B] are the guy who just 2 lines ago proposed a completely logical statement, "We revoke [some] of their rights because they have no regard for anybody's else's, that makes them dangerous, and we have to segregate them in order to keep ourselves safe", which is basically how the justice system works to this day, as I've already said in the first part of this answer; only to pollute this completely and make it counter-defeating because you put "punish" and "satisfied" in it. Punishment has literally zero effect on somebody who is going to be in jail for life, we can discuss what effect it has for people who could reasonably get out and reoffend, but that's arguably a discussion for another day. That "satisfied" thingy is 100% appeal to emotion. A logical person would be "satisfied" without punishment because they know the fucker is locked up for life and he can't do anything to them. If you put "satisfied" in the context of "punishment", however, that only means some thing: "please, please, somebody quench my murderboner!". It's a completely normal thing to feel for revenge. It's the way our brain are wired. It's not normal, or at least not beneficial, to let this emotion get the hold of yourself to the point you become nothing less than an agent for the same thing that made you so disgusted in the first place, ESPECIALLY when doing that has literally (this is not an internet literally) 0 positive, physical, practical effects. Only a big waste of money. [quote] That's why I always like talking with professionals about this subject: they actually know what they're talking about. Cops, lawyers, doctors, prison employees, and cleanup crewmen know what it's like to deal with these kinds of twisted, broken individuals, and they know how hopelessly lost they are. Most of them don't want to keep these people alive because they know they're dangerous to those of us who just want to live quiet, peaceful lives (in other words: normal people)[/quote] Ok, but why do you need to kill them? Did people start making prisons out of rubber while I wasn't looking? [quote] and because they know it's a complete waste of time what with them being beyond help.[/quote] That can or cannot be true, still I don't see how this is an argument for the death penalty. At best, it's an argument against rehab (which is equally retarded, mind you, but out fo the scope of this discussion). [quote]And better still, they also know that it's a perfectly natural reaction to feel anger towards them because most humans (again, the normal ones) have a moral compass that tells them right from wrong... and raping, torturing, and murdering innocent people is wrong. [/quote] Agreed [quote]But this is what happens when you listen to a bunch of people who have no hands-on experience with this kind of depravity. Odds are they haven't had it inflicted on them personally (and if they have, there's a whole lot of interesting psychological implications I could delve into on why they might sympathize with this guy), they haven't had to clean up the mess that was left afterwards (the gore and viscera of the victim I mean), they haven't had to deal with dead bodies or funeral arrangements in these situations (or in general), they've never had to notify people of terrible things that have been done to their loved ones and have never had to deal with their reactions, they've never had to guard, feed, give medical care to, or care for in general a person like this when they were incarcerated, etc. They're just sheltered is all, but they'll be damned if they'll admit it. They'll twist and turn any which way they can to try and preserve their high-minded idealism about why it's wrong to kill people who do terrible things, and you're never going to convince them they're wrong-- not when discussing murderers and serial killers, not war criminals, not even terrorist leaders.[/quote] Ok, so in this big post against using emotions to argue against the death penalty, you use the emotion of people to argue [I]for[/I] the death penalty. Tell me, why does any of this call for the death of the man? If the man dies, to the crewmen get a pass on cleaning the gore? Does the undertaker stop digging the grave? Do the loved ones forget about the death of the kid? [quote]Their opinion is not worth much.[/quote] Neither is yours, it doesn't matter how many appeal to emotions and appeal to authority you make. I spoke with the pope, barack obama, and the prince of nigeria, and they all told me the death penalty is wrong!!! [quote] Don't get too worked up over it. [/quote] Here continues your not-very-subtle subtle approac to make yourself look like a calm, collected individual, while trying to make your opposition look like a bunch of babies. [quote]Just recognize it for what it is and move on.[quote] You do realize that abandoning a discussion means you lost, not that you won, right? [quote]Also, take comfort in the knowledge that a lot of people who have actually dealt with these kinds of cases and the lovely individuals who commit them feel just about the same way as we do...[/quote] I'd assume an equal, if not larger, amount of people also feel the opposite of the way you do, you know, considering the death penalty is mostly illegal right now. [quote] because they actually know better, from experiences so horrific most people would be literally sick to their stomachs if they so much as had to listen to them be recounted.[/quote] This is an appeal to authority just like the ones before, but honestly it's not even an actual appeal to authority, it's not like you know for sure everybody in those categories supports the death penalty, so not only you're appealing to an authority, you're appealing to an imaginary authority you made up in your head which so happens to have the characteristics you want it to have. Also, I'll reiterate, if all these important, authoritative people have the "right" opinion, and the right opinion is that the death penalty is a-ok, then why is the death penalty illegal in most places in the world? Did the sheltered, ignorant people somehow get enough authority to overcome the actual authority? You may have to admit there are more shades to this than "Experts say yes" and "Ignorants say no". [I'm not gonna answer the part about Bin Laden because I was thirteen when that happened and I lack the kind of knowledge one would need to discuss it]
It's nice that the justice system is separate from popular opinion [sp]except our elected judges[/sp]
[QUOTE=gk99;51170079]Anyone who's raped a toddler should never be trusted as a pediatrician imo [editline]a[/editline] No matter what this guy does with the rest of his life, he still raped and murdered a child. I don't want to see him anywhere near children ever again.[/QUOTE] That isn't an argument
[QUOTE=J!NX;51169749]I believe in rehab but I really doubt he'll ever recover. Fucker needs prison or anything that isn't blind revenge. This isn't the type of dude that recovers. He's permanently screwed in the head. No one is saying it'd be a piece of cake either. But if you don't try you don't get results. And if you pretend like you'll never try, you'll NEVER get results for sure.[/QUOTE] I'm not ruling out the possibility of him never recovering, but it's quite shocking how many pieces of shits out there have been successfully reintigrated into society as a normal person. I'm not entirely sure about someone to this extent, however, but then again you rarely ever hear about these sort of crimes happening in places with actually decent prison systems.
Would be far better if he was in solitary for life, and under suicide watch so that he can live on isolated forever.
[QUOTE=ZakkShock;51169415]Well this thread is exactly how I pictured it. Euro's saying it's barbaric to execute this guy (it's not.)[/QUOTE] Those pesky euros!!!! Getting in the way of my revenge fantasy wet dream
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