Shitstorm's a brewin' - Ukrainian military kill 5 pro-russian militants - Russia begins military exc
60 replies, posted
[QUOTE=NoDachi;44633206]there were plenty of posts about how they need to start hitting police stations, barracks, getting units to defect
plus the usual facepunch gun lobby reminding us this is the very reason why they collect guns[/QUOTE]
As I said, care to back that up? I saw a lot of people supporting what the protesters were doing, I saw none of that.
[QUOTE=l337k1ll4;44633211]As I said, care to back that up? I saw a lot of people supporting what the protesters were doing, I saw none of that.[/QUOTE]
You don't win an argument by making it too tedious to function lmao
i don't care enough about this to deal with selective alzheimer's
I'm sure other people remember
[QUOTE=NoDachi;44633234]You don't win an argument by making it too tedious to function lmao
i don't care enough about this to deal with selective alzheimer's
I'm sure other people remember[/QUOTE]
You're just completely pulling this shit out of your ass though.
This thread is filled with logical flaws and mainly responses that soldiers deserve to die. Their cause/causer may deserve to die (but usually imprisoned), but [i]never[/i] the soldiers. [i]Never[/i].... (fade out with echo please this is serious)
[QUOTE=l337k1ll4;44633248]You're just completely pulling this shit out of your ass though.[/QUOTE]
Ask Trunk Monkey (he's in this thread) or JoeSkylynx.
I'm sure they won't deny what they said previously.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;44633303]Ask Trunk Monkey (he's in this thread) or JoeSkylynx.
I'm sure they won't deny what they said previously.[/QUOTE]
what did I say previously in regards to what?
[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;44633343]what did I say previously in regards to what?[/QUOTE]
That the pro-EU protesters are legitimate in using firearms.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;44633376]That the pro-EU protesters are legitimate in using firearms.[/QUOTE]
if they're being shot at, yea. don't see why them returning fire would be a controversial thing.
[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;44633405]if they're being shot at, yea. don't see why them returning fire would be a controversial thing.[/QUOTE]
do you extend this clause to the pro-russian protests?
[QUOTE=NoDachi;44633411]do you extend this clause to the pro-russian protests?[/QUOTE]
If they were actually protests then yes. But they're protesters in the same way the Confederates or the IRA were protesters. Having a political reason to do what you do doesn't make what you're doing a protest once you start taking miltary action.
The Ukranian government didn't push them into grabbing guns and stealing tanks and taking over government buildings and kidnapping people, they just started doing it.
[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;44633109]Nothing will happen. Literally nothing will happen. Even if Russia continues to have their fighters do imaginary strafing runs on US ships, if one gets shot down a whole war isn't going to break out over it.
The war exercises going on right now are just a kind of "Don't fuck with us" display that the US and Russia is doing.[/QUOTE]
Pretty sure that Russia can annex Ukraine all the way up to the Dniester River and link up with the breakaway region of Transnistria, and the West will do absolutely nothing beyond more sanctions.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;44633411]do you extend this clause to the pro-russian protests?[/QUOTE]
Not really sure you can call them protests
[QUOTE=l337k1ll4;44633421]The Ukranian government didn't push them into grabbing guns and stealing tanks and taking over government buildings and kidnapping people, they just started doing it.[/QUOTE]
so what you're saying that the difference between your horror at the clampdown at maidan and your support of the clamp down in eastern ukraine is the difference in legitimacy of the both sides?
I'm not saying I necessarily disagree with this - I just find it fascinating how people quickly draw themselves into set ideological camps over this.
[editline]24th April 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;44633453]Not really sure you can call them protests[/QUOTE]
Whats the difference?
They stormed government buildings, took hostages, used firearms in both cases.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;44633465]so what you're saying that the difference between your horror at the clampdown at maidan and your support of the clamp down in eastern ukraine is the difference in legitimacy of the both sides?
I'm not saying I necessarily disagree with this - I just find it fascinating how people quickly draw themselves into set ideological camps over this.
[editline]24th April 2014[/editline]
Whats the difference?
They stormed government buildings, took hostages, used firearms in both cases.[/QUOTE]
The difference is that the people in Kiev were protesters, the people in Eastern Ukraine are a military operation.
To use a previous example, people who take to the streets to protest English rule are protesters, the IRA are terrorists.
this sound effect is playing in my head
[url]http://www.pond5.com/sound-effect/7900402/crowdteenschantfight.html[/url]
[QUOTE=l337k1ll4;44633479]The difference is that the people in Kiev were protesters, the people in Eastern Ukraine are a military operation.[/QUOTE]
so the difference between the two is only the level of equipment and outside support available.
[editline]24th April 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=l337k1ll4;44633479]To use a previous example, people who take to the streets to protest English rule are protesters, the IRA are terrorists.[/QUOTE]
So you're saying this is a picture of a terrorist?
[img]http://rt.com/files/news/22/a6/e0/00/bul-1.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=NoDachi;44633494]so the difference between the two is only the level of equipment and outside support available.
[editline]24th April 2014[/editline]
So you're saying this is a picture of a terrorist?
[img]http://rt.com/files/news/22/a6/e0/00/bul-1.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
Considering that at that point in the protest they were being actively attacked by armed Berkut officers, that's self defense. The Ukranian government did nothing to illicit a violent response from these militia groups.
So if the police/army are called in to clear the protests in eastern-ukraine, they're no longer terrorists, but self-defense-units?
[QUOTE=NoDachi;44633537]So if the police/army are called in to clear the protests in eastern-ukraine, they're no longer terrorists, but self-defense-units?[/QUOTE]
If the government are silencing legitimate and civilized protests with armed forces, they're the ones who are completely in the wrong.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;44633465]
Whats the difference?
They stormed government buildings, took hostages, used firearms in both cases.[/QUOTE]
in your mind, where does protesting start becoming terrorism?
[QUOTE=NoDachi;44633465]so what you're saying that the difference between your horror at the clampdown at maidan and your support of the clamp down in eastern ukraine is the difference in legitimacy of the both sides?
I'm not saying I necessarily disagree with this - I just find it fascinating how people quickly draw themselves into set ideological camps over this.[/QUOTE]
It is entirely natural for people to view their own national/geopolitical background as a force for good (or at least, rationalize it so) while applying critique to the opposing side. And then when faced with double standard accusations such people tend to backpedal out of it by grasping at mostly irrelevant straws that don't really cancel out said accusations. I've been doing the same thing as well, really.
Seldom do you see a person who is entirely objective when it comes to these things, because it is very difficult to disregard your national pride, no matter how faint it may be, or other preconceived notions, in order to view things as clearly and plainly as they are in reality.
[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;44633557]in your mind, where does protesting start becoming terrorism?[/QUOTE]
it depends entirely on your personal ideology considering the difference between them is often abstract.
But I wouldn't calling those groups in eastern ukraine terrorists just yet, it cheapens the word greatly.
[editline]24th April 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=l337k1ll4;44633547]If the government are silencing legitimate and civilized protests with armed forces, they're the ones who are completely in the wrong.[/QUOTE]
I agree but
if the maidan protests were not so remarkably civilized as they were before the first police clamp down, then their protest would be illegitimate and the former president not in the wrong?
[QUOTE=l337k1ll4;44633421]If they were actually protests then yes. But they're protesters in the same way the Confederates or the IRA were protesters. Having a political reason to do what you do doesn't make what you're doing a protest once you start taking miltary action.
The Ukranian government didn't push them into grabbing guns and stealing tanks and taking over government buildings and kidnapping people, they just started doing it.[/QUOTE]
And you just played Anarchy in the UK in my head by mentioning IRA :)
[QUOTE=NoDachi;44633572]it depends entirely on your personal ideology considering the difference between them is often abstract.
But I wouldn't calling those groups in eastern ukraine terrorists just yet, it cheapens the word greatly.
[editline]24th April 2014[/editline]
so if the maidan protests were not so remarkably civilized as they were before the first police clamp down, then their protest would be illegitimate and the former president not in the wrong?[/QUOTE]
If they were forming a military organization then yes the government would be well within its bounds to stop them. Yanukovich would still be a corrupt douche but for completely different reasons.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;44633572]
I agree but
if the maidan protests were not so remarkably civilized as they were before the first police clamp down, then their protest would be illegitimate and the former president not in the wrong?[/QUOTE]
If the original protesters just straight up started firing on cops and annexing government buildings right from the start, then they'd have been in the wrong. But regardless, the issue is not so black and white that one side has to be right and the other wrong.
[quote]Russian President Vladimir Putin said that if the Kiev government "has started to use the army against the population inside the country, it, beyond any doubt, is a very serious crime."
[/quote]
by all definitions, armed guys blocking public access and taking over goverment buildings and military bases is terrorism or a rebellion
russia however has stated in syria where the [I]same thing by their metric[/I] is happening that the goverment is justified in using its forces to restore order, ukraine is doing the same here
Great. All we need now is a shot in Sarajevo and we're set.
the zone will stop the russians
Well, Kiev self-defence was rather too soon, and included throwing bricks and concrete at Berkut. Then, SUDDENLY it evolved into Molotovs. And after that, those strange snipers shooting both at protestors and law forces. They blamed each other, and began shootout.
And just before that protestors began to crack up government buildings, but failed. So, "Han shot first".
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