• Black Lives Matter claims child was pepper-sprayed during protest; investigation ordered
    80 replies, posted
[QUOTE=katbug;47731018]The racial aspect directly mirrors the violent crime rates across races, which can be tied back to economic standing and social structure. You could argue that this economic standing is based off of lasting racial issues, but that's another issue entirely.[/QUOTE] [quote]Despite making up 67 percent of the population, African Americans accounted for 85 percent of FPD’s traffic stops, 90 percent of FPD’s citations, and 93 percent of FPD’s arrests from 2012 to 2014.[/quote] [quote]African Americans are 2.07 times more likely to be searched during a vehicular stop but are 26 percent less likely to have contraband found on them during a search. They are 2.00 times more likely to receive a citation and 2.37 times more likely to be arrested following a vehicular stop.[/quote] [quote]African Americans have force used against them at disproportionately high rates, accounting for 88% of all cases from 2010 to August 2014 in which an FPD officer reported using force. In all 14 uses of force involving a canine bite for which we have information about the race of the person bitten, the person was African American.[/quote] [quote]African Americans are more likely to receive multiple citations during a single incident, receiving four or more citations on 73 occasions between October 2012 and July 2014, whereas non-African Americans received four or more citations only twice during that period.[/quote] [quote]African Americans account for 95 percent of Manner of Walking charges; 94 percent of all Fail to Comply charges; 92 percent of all Resisting Arrest charges; 92 percent of all Peace Disturbance charges; and 89 percent of all Failure to Obey charges.[/quote] [quote]African Americans are 68 percent less likely than others to have their cases dismissed by the Municipal Judge, and in 2013 African Americans accounted for 92 percent of cases in which an arrest warrant was issued.[/quote] Sure, black people commit crimes (just like any other people). I'd even cede that black people in America probably commit more crimes, because, as you mentioned, black people in this country are overwhelmingly poor, and poverty is the single biggest indicator of crime. As to WHY they are poor, well, that's just another example of how historical and ongoing racism has led to this toxic situation. But, it is provably untrue that crime statistics mirrors [I]actual[/I] crime rates. We have the Ferguson Report to thank for that, and so much else. It showed that the statistics themselves are directly inflated by the predatory justice system. The Ferguson report took the "[i]I'm Only Racist Because of [b]STATISTICS![/b][/I]" argument and revealed it as a load of shit. Crime statistics are thin misinformation at best. I might even be inclined to go so far as to call them straight propaganda. All of our social reactions to black people today are informed by this fear that they are inherently more criminal than white people. We cite statistics and rap music and look at the deepest most officially abandoned ghettos we can reference as justification for that fear. But the ghettos were created by, and the statistics are cooked. You can no longer hide behind those numbers, because it has been proven that there is a heavy finger on the scale. You can no longer justify this fear and distrust, because the foundations of that fear and distrust are built of shifting lies. To put it in a word: you are wrong. Your argument is wrong. Your perspective is wrong. Your stereotypes are wrong. Your fear is wrong. Your distrust is wrong. Your sense of racial superiority is wrong. Your willingness to discount all evidence contrary to your upbringing is [I]wrong.[/I] You are wrong. Our country is wrong. Please, for the love of God, can middle class white America just realize how fucking ridiculous it is being? Can all the people who have, for so long, been arguing that[I] those uppity blacks need to just pull up their pants and get jobs and stop crying about racism that doesn't exist anymore[/I] realize that they are [b]wrong,[/b] and start working to actually fix this problem?
The Ferguson report is about the situation in Ferguson. It (strongly) suggests widespread racism in the Ferguson Police Department. So that report [I]alone[/I] is not a good basis for the position that police all over the US is racist. (I'm not saying it isn't, by the way. I'm saying things aren't that simple, and honestly, I don't find myself - or anyone else - qualified to make that judgement without thoroughly reviewing a much larger mountain of data, and I don't even know if the data we have is enough.)
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;47748595]But, it is provably untrue that crime statistics mirrors [I]actual[/I] crime rates. [/QUOTE] The statistics you cited from the Ferguson report are talking about non-violent crimes, things easily spurred by racial bias like manner of walking and resisting arrest which come down to the subjective assessment of the officer. I don't think anybody disputes that those show substantial bias. But police bias is not going to magnify homicide, rape, and other violent crimes to anything like the degree you're suggesting. We've seen some cases of bias- black Americans are more likely to be indicted in cases of self-defense, for example, but even there it's not to the degree that would suggest that racism explains the much higher incidence of violent crime. You can't discount the statistics that easily. It's not often that you see correlation like this in crime statistics. To look at evidence strongly suggesting that police homicides within a community are primarily a function of violent crime within that community rather than racial bias and just dismiss it as lies strikes me as [I]extremely[/I] reactionary, and I say that as someone who believes that racial bias amongst police forces is a serious issue.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;47735725]Haha, where the hell are you insecure racist nutters getting this weird sense of persecution from? It defies all logic, dude. An oppressed minority demanding fair treatment does not in any way imply that they think other races should receive less fair treatment.[/QUOTE] 1.) I never said I was oppressed. 2.) There are more races than black and white, believe it or not, and many were/are oppressed. None of this is about me.
[QUOTE=DrTaxi;47749438]The Ferguson report is about the situation in Ferguson. It (strongly) suggests widespread racism in the Ferguson Police Department. So that report [I]alone[/I] is not a good basis for the position that police all over the US is racist. (I'm not saying it isn't, by the way. I'm saying things aren't that simple, and honestly, I don't find myself - or anyone else - qualified to make that judgement without thoroughly reviewing a much larger mountain of data, and I don't even know if the data we have is enough.)[/QUOTE] It's simply delusional to assume that it isn't. Ferguson is not unique. It wasn't chosen for investigation based on anything other than a random consequence of coincidental police violence. To argue that this one small county chosen, essentially, at random for an in-depth investigation because of social unrest after a shooting (a shooting that was ruled justified) [I]just happened[/I] to be the [B]only[/B] bastion of widespread exploitation of minorities by the justice system when this narrative of systemic abuse has been parroted in dozens of major cities around the country for at least the past twenty years? Absurd. Ridiculous. Absolutely laughable. And, frankly, disgusting.
[QUOTE=cody8295;47723986]*all* lives matter[/QUOTE] [img]http://chainsawsuit.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/20141204-patreon.png[/img]
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;47749615]It wasn't chosen for investigation based on anything other than a random consequence of coincidental police violence.[/QUOTE] It was chosen for investigation based on enormous local outcry reaching the national news and staying in the public consciousness for months. I agree with what you're saying that it's illogical to assume that this is just an issue for Ferguson, but you are talking about a town that exploded with riots over a single police shooting that ultimately turned out to be justified. If it weren't for the long-standing racial tension stemming from unfair treatment at the hands of the police force, it wouldn't have resulted in riots, wouldn't have reached the news, and wouldn't have triggered a DoJ inquiry. It's disingenuous to call it essentially a randomly-chosen county when it was chosen specifically because of allegations of racial injustice.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;47749615]It's simply delusional to assume that it isn't. Ferguson is not unique. It wasn't chosen for investigation based on anything other than a random consequence of coincidental police violence. To argue that this one small county chosen, essentially, at random for an in-depth investigation because of social unrest after a shooting (a shooting that was ruled justified) [I]just happened[/I] to be the [B]only[/B] bastion of widespread exploitation of minorities by the justice system when this narrative of systemic abuse has been parroted in dozens of major cities around the country for at least the past twenty years? Absurd. Ridiculous. Absolutely laughable. And, frankly, disgusting.[/QUOTE] Besides what catbarf said: I'm not arguing it "just happens to be the only bastion of widespread exploitation of minorities by the justice system". I'm arguing it doesn't provide [I]proof[/I] that it isn't. It's one point of data, statistically insignificant on its own. If you want to prove widespread racism in the whole country, you need data from the whole country. A single county doesn't cut it. It may be exemplary, or it may not. (Frankly I don't even see why we're having this conversation. Action to reduce racism within the executive, as long as it's just and [I]actually works[/I], seems like a good idea in general, because even if there is no problem, it should help prevent one from coming up in the future)
The thing is this whole "kid getting maced" thing has been blown way out of proportion. The media makes it seem like a cop went up to a kid and put a bear mace bottle straight in his face. The reality of the matter is that a mom took her kid to a protest at 10pm and a group of people continued to move toward police after repeatedly being told to step back and stop approaching. The cop then sprayed mace at the crown, which hits everyone (but not quite like getting it straight in the face). They use these tactics when college kids riot at the U of M campus.
[QUOTE=catbarf;47749695]It was chosen for investigation based on enormous local outcry reaching the national news and staying in the public consciousness for months. I agree with what you're saying that it's illogical to assume that this is just an issue for Ferguson, but you are talking about a town that exploded with riots over a single police shooting that ultimately turned out to be justified. If it weren't for the long-standing racial tension stemming from unfair treatment at the hands of the police force, it wouldn't have resulted in riots, wouldn't have reached the news, and wouldn't have triggered a DoJ inquiry. It's disingenuous to call it essentially a randomly-chosen county when it was chosen specifically because of allegations of racial injustice.[/QUOTE] Yet similar allegations have been being made for how long, and from how many cities? Sure, Ferguson was picked because of social outcry after the shooting, but this outcry wasn't new, and this outcry is not unique to Ferguson, and that is the point I am trying to make. Hell, one of the biggest and most misguided criticisms against "black culture" is the "thug" attitude-- a deep distrust of police and the justice system. This is a heavily recurring theme in subversive rap and hip hop, and it didnt just [I]happen.[/I] Black people didn't arbitrarily decide, "lets distrust the justice system." It grew from unrest, and from a sense of oppressiom and exploitation. This has been inherent to so many major cities for the past twenty years that Ferguson, a previously unheard-of little county of Saint Louis, is essentially meaningless backround noise in that context. So yeah, it [I]is[/I] fair to call this random. That the DoJ started with Ferguson, a county most people have never even heard of, is [I]incredibly[/I] random, but ultimately very lucky. It's lucky because their investigation, with all its statistics and examples and hard evidence, proved that black people were right. They weren't just blowing smoke. They weren't just "pulling the race card." They [I]have[/I] been exploited, and oppressed, and marginalized, and demonized. Here, where the criticisms are just the same as they are in so much of the country, black people have been vindicated in their outcry. That is what Ferguson Report proved. That this one small place, which is unique in no other sense than it just happened to be the first place an investigation of this scale was launched, revealed that the outcry was justified. To then pretend like there's no merit to those allegations elsewhere? Come on, dude. Surely nobody can be that obtuse.
[QUOTE=Judas;47749673][img]http://chainsawsuit.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/20141204-patreon.png[/img][/QUOTE] Except both houses are burning but one is burning a little more intensely [editline]18th May 2015[/editline] not to mention how there are more races than white and black
[QUOTE=katbug;47749945]Except both houses are burning but one is burning a little more intensely [editline]18th May 2015[/editline] not to mention how there are more races than white and black[/QUOTE] You keep saying this like it is somehow relevant? Yes, there are other races. Very astute. And yes, there is prejudice against other races. Hey, you're battin' a hundred! But the scale and intensity of that prejudice, in the United States, is nowhere near the same level as what is experienced by black people. Using your burning house example, oppression and exploitation of black people is a wildfire threatening tens of thousands of acres and entire towns, compared to smoke and sparks and a few tongues of flame. Yes, if ignored the smaller fire could grow into something just as big. It needs to be addressed. All fires need to be put out! But some are currently much bigger and much more actively dangerous, and you're not being the reasonable one by arguing that we need to give equal attention to both.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;47750000]You keep saying this like it is somehow relevant? Yes, there are other races. Very astute. And yes, there is prejudice against races. Hey, you're battin' a hundred! But the scale and intensity of that prejudice, in the United States, is nowhere near the same level. Using your burning house example, oppression and exploitation of black people is a wildfire threatening tens of thousands of acres and entire cities, compared to smoke and sparks and a few tongues of flame. Yes, if ignored the smaller fire could grow into something just as big. It needs to be addressed. All fires need to be put out! But some are currently much bigger and much more actively dangerous, and you're not being the reasonable one by arguing that we need to give equal attention to both.[/QUOTE] You're a fucking fool if you think we shouldn't try to improve all people's lives just because some people have it worse If police violence is reduced, ALL benefit. If police violence were almost eliminated, the most clear and present danger would be almost completely removed. Also, pretending that there aren't more issues than pure white on black racism is irresponsible.
[QUOTE=joes33431;47737093]well obviously there's a problem considering that 30% of killings are against blacks despite them only being [I]13 percent of the population[/I] while whites are only half of police killings despite being [I]77 percent of the population[/I] do you not understand basic proportions or what[/QUOTE] not that i disagree with you, but black people also end up committing disproportional amount of crime, which might account for the higher rate. for example, black people commit [URL="http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded/expanded-homicide-data"]slightly over half of the murders[/URL] despite being only 13% of the population. if i told you that men were [URL="http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/08/police-shootings-michael-brown-ferguson-black-men"]killed around 20 times [/URL]more than women by police, despite each being around half of the population, would you claim there was a war on men? I don't disagree that police are systematically racist, but a lot of these stats you guys are linking aren't conclusive evidence of anything.
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;47750233]not that i disagree with you, but black people also end up committing disproportional amount of crime, which might account for the higher rate. for example, black people commit [URL="http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded/expanded-homicide-data"]slightly over half of the murders[/URL] despite being only 13% of the population. if i told you that men were [URL="http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/08/police-shootings-michael-brown-ferguson-black-men"]killed around 20 times [/URL]more than women by police, despite each being around half of the population, would you claim there was a war on men? [/QUOTE] This also isn't conclusive evidence of anything. Half the people [I]convicted[/I] of murders are black. This could also mean the justice system is much more thorough in convicting people of colour, or ruling a crime a murder rather than e.g. involuntary manslaughter if the offender isn't white. (It also doesn't mean "slightly over half of murders are committed by black people", as one person can commit more than one murder.)
[QUOTE=DrTaxi;47750395]This also isn't conclusive evidence of anything. Half the people [I]convicted[/I] of murders are black. This could also mean the justice system is much more thorough in convicting people of colour, or ruling a crime a murder rather than e.g. involuntary manslaughter if the offender isn't white. (It also doesn't mean "slightly over half of murders are committed by black people", as one person can commit more than one murder.)[/QUOTE] It'd be hard to find a stat on the number of murders committed by a murdered broken down by race though. Also, apparently there are [URL="http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/nov/26/rudy-giuliani/giuliani-black-and-white-people-charged-murder-are/"]no conviction rate statistics broken down by race[/URL] either, although the overall [URL="http://lsr.nellco.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1399&context=harvard_olin"]conviction rate is 85%[/URL]. Even if the conviction rate for black people was 100% (which might imply some convictions are false positives), it seems they still commit a disproportionate amount of murder (or at least they get arrested for a disproportionate amount of murder). Either way, my original point was that if black people commit more crime, you'd expect them to be killed more by police. More police interaction leads to more chances of getting killed by police. Just because there are more deaths by police, doesn't necessarily imply they are being targeted, because there are other factors. Although I'll reiterate that I agree there is systemic racism in the justice system.
[QUOTE=katbug;47750034]You're a fucking fool if you think we shouldn't try to improve all people's lives just because some people have it worse If police violence is reduced, ALL benefit. If police violence were almost eliminated, the most clear and present danger would be almost completely removed. Also, pretending that there aren't more issues than pure white on black racism is irresponsible.[/QUOTE] You have now successfully observed that the entire world has things wrong with it. You have stated that things should be done to curb all the shit equally. Now what do you suggest? Because Black Lives Matter didn't waste time going "well shit Jason maybe we shouldn't start this organization after all there are other groups of people that have problems" They looked at their shit and wanted to get shit done. And to my understanding you're pitching a bitch about their singular focus or what? To reiterate, what do you suggest?
[QUOTE=DrTaxi;47750395]This also isn't conclusive evidence of anything. Half the people [I]convicted[/I] of murders are black. This could also mean the justice system is much more thorough in convicting people of colour, or ruling a crime a murder rather than e.g. involuntary manslaughter if the offender isn't white. (It also doesn't mean "slightly over half of murders are committed by black people", as one person can commit more than one murder.)[/QUOTE] Blacks also make up nearly 50% of murder victims in the US, the overwhelming majority of them (over 80%) killed by other black people. When the murderer and murder victim are both black why would there be racial bias in the police treatment of the case?
[QUOTE=katbug;47750034]You're a fucking fool if you think we shouldn't try to improve all people's lives just because some people have it worse If police violence is reduced, ALL benefit. If police violence were almost eliminated, the most clear and present danger would be almost completely removed. Also, pretending that there aren't more issues than pure white on black racism is irresponsible.[/QUOTE] Yeah, police need better training across the board in order to ensure that overreach of power is as limited as possible. That's a great goal. Everybody should applaud that. Nowhere have I ever argued that no other races experience oppression in the United States, or that we don't need to focus on improving the country as a whole. What I have argued is that it is a verifiable fact that black people face the greatest scale and highest intensity of exploitation and oppression by police officers in this country. It needs to be specifically addressed because it is specifically a problem on a much larger scale than other examples of police overreach. Besides that, this isn't a zero sum game. Making strides to be more fair and judicious towards black people doesn't mean that police officers have to be less fair and judicious to other people to make up for it. [I]What? You never said we couldn't exploit Asians! Just black people![/I] You are not being reasonable here dude, lmao.
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;47750233]not that i disagree with you, but black people also end up committing disproportional amount of crime, which might account for the higher rate. for example, black people commit [URL="http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded/expanded-homicide-data"]slightly over half of the murders[/URL] despite being only 13% of the population. if i told you that men were [URL="http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/08/police-shootings-michael-brown-ferguson-black-men"]killed around 20 times [/URL]more than women by police, despite each being around half of the population, would you claim there was a war on men? I don't disagree that police are systematically racist, but a lot of these stats you guys are linking aren't conclusive evidence of anything.[/QUOTE] that's true. i wasn't trying to suggest otherwise. i was just pointing out that it's stupid to say that whites are more nominally killed in police shootings as evidence that there isn't racism in police departments, when the nominally larger portion that whites hold is a natural result of there being more whites than blacks, and simple proportions indicate an obvious disparity, regardless of what the cause of that disparity may be.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.