Judge Vinson maintains Healthcare law Unconstitutional. Gives Obama 7 days to appeal.
333 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Broseph_;28414591]Meanwhile when does the absolute need to insure 36 million Americans (many of which I suspect didn't have it out of choice rather than unaffordability), suddenly give the government the right to walk in and force me to buy insurance or pay a fine that's about a thousand times less than any insurance premium for simply being a citizen?[/QUOTE]
I'm not defending that mandate, nor should anyone. That's not an effective healthcare system. But it's what the bill was reduced to by republicans.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;28414585]Myth 1: Taxes are bad
Myth 2: Population is the issue.
How does a larger population make it worse? How does that break a national healthcare service and how does that justify having a worse system?[/QUOTE]
How are you going to import a system to the third largest country by population when most other countries enacted this same system nearly a hundred or so years ago when their populations were in the sub-ten millions levels?
Also how does population not factor into it? Considering the People's Republic of China, a Communist country(!), doesn't even have Universal Health Care, and India's attempt to introduce universe health care has been a complete failure?
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;28414247]Shut up. You want a corporatist nightmare. One can say the same of your vision of our world, except, there are actual social democracies doing quite well.[/QUOTE]
I love how you keep using "corporatist" to attack me when such a term when applied to me is so very very inaccurate.
The only powers corporations have are the ones granted to them by the bureaucracy something I am very much against.
Corporations don't want the free market I envision, they are very much against freedom. They want all the privileges their lobbyists can round up from the officials who are elected by supplying special favors to constituents.
So no, you shut up.
[QUOTE=Broseph_;28414618]How are you going to import a system to the third largest country by population when most other countries enacted this same system nearly a hundred or so years ago when their populations were in the sub-ten millions levels?[/QUOTE]
by making a system that works under the conditions of the US. No one said anything about bringing in the same system as somewhere else, as mentioned before, it's likely not going to work. It needs a system set up just for it.
[editline]3rd March 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Strider*;28414635]I love how you keep using "corporatist" to attack me when such a term when applied to me is so very very inaccurate.
The only powers corporations have are the ones granted to them by the bureaucracy something I am very much against.
Corporations don't want the free market I envision, they are very much against freedom. They want all the privileges their lobbyists can round up from the officials who are elected by supplying special favors to constituents.
So no, you shut up.[/QUOTE]
You're the one who acts like "socialist" governments are the devil and that anyone who's like that is doing worse than the US. Which isn't true.
And that's the first time I've ever called you corporatist. Which you've shown me no proof you're not.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;28414414]The current healthcare bill is not what the country needs. But it does need one.
If a social democracy is a terrible society, then I guess I'll weep for all those poor Canadians, and Scandinavians and British people all living a destitute poor, pathetic life in those countries with healthcare.[/QUOTE]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXJgkvF19QA[/media]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2jijuj1ysw[/media]
[editline]4th March 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;28414639]And that's the first time I've ever called you corporatist. Which you've shown me no proof you're not.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough.
[QUOTE=Strider*;28414680][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXJgkvF19QA[/media]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2jijuj1ysw[/media][/QUOTE]
great argument, i see your point.
Wait, you don't fucking have one. We're better at healthcare than you, and do better cancer research. Yes, there are fucking wait times, there are horror stories, and I love how you can't argue against it EXCEPT with fucking horror stories. There are horror stories of your system too, but our system has been found to work better.
[QUOTE=Strider*;28414680][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXJgkvF19QA[/media]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2jijuj1ysw[/media]
[editline]4th March 2011[/editline]
Fair enough.[/QUOTE]
Falling back onto Youtube a for a argument is not a good indicator of your ability to carry the argument forward
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;28414699]great argument, i see your point.
Wait, you don't fucking have one. We're better at healthcare than you, and do better cancer research. Yes, there are fucking wait times, there are horror stories, and I love how you can't argue against it EXCEPT with fucking horror stories. There are horror stories of your system too, but our system has been found to work better.[/QUOTE]
I get better healthcare than you ever will in your system by paying for it (shocking!).
[editline]4th March 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Broseph_;28414710]Falling back onto Youtube a for a argument is not a good indicator of your ability to carry the argument forward[/QUOTE]
John Stossel does a great investigation, I couldn't show the material better myself.
[QUOTE=Strider*;28414739]I get better healthcare than you ever will in your system by paying for it (shocking!).
[editline]4th March 2011[/editline]
John Stossel does a great investigation, I couldn't show the material better myself.[/QUOTE]
[citation needed]
Really? You do? Oh man, that's... well, that's shocking. But guess what? You spend more on healthcare than anyone else for LESS. I know you like your dollar value, so that must make you fucking happy, huh?
[QUOTE=Strider*;28414635]I love how you keep using "corporatist" to attack me when such a term when applied to me is so very very inaccurate. [/QUOTE]
Like what you do with the word socialist? But really if you look at real socialist democracies you will see that that is not true. Without laws restricting people to own slaves they will. Sure there will still be slavery if you make it illegal but far less. I mean minimum wage is the only thing keeping businesses from even paying there workers as much as they do. I don't see why you think taking off the chains of businesses will some how stop them from being abusive like you see with china or africa.
[QUOTE=Strider*;28414739]I get better healthcare than you ever will in your system by paying for it (shocking!).[/QUOTE]
Yeah isn't one of the main obstacles to health care in the United States, this mindset that if you have to buy it it has to be better than the free alternative? Since most people want a alternative to the free/cheap shit
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;28414789][citation needed]
Really? You do? Oh man, that's... well, that's shocking. But guess what? You spend more on healthcare than anyone else for LESS. I know you like your dollar value, so that must make you fucking happy, huh?[/QUOTE]
I have met two people who have migrated from Canada to the United States. One was the son of a doctor and the other a girl whose family was fed up with the Canadian system.
I pay for more advanced clinics, higher trained doctors, superior technology, and some of the fastest treatment in the world.
Which country do you think most medical advancements come from?
[QUOTE=Strider*;28414739]I get better healthcare than you ever will in your system by paying for it (shocking!).
[/QUOTE]
Good thing everyone has money or else they would be fucked.
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;28414812]I don't see why you think taking off the chains of businesses will some how stop them from being abusive like you see with china or africa.[/QUOTE]
Workers in China and Africa are better off with their jobs than they were before that industry was introduced to their country.
The more those industries grow the better off the workers will be.
China and Africa need industry and with industry comes higher wages and improved production.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;28414789][citation needed]
Really? You do? Oh man, that's... well, that's shocking. But guess what? You spend more on healthcare than anyone else for LESS. I know you like your dollar value, so that must make you fucking happy, huh?[/QUOTE]
And with Obama Care and the massive opposition to nationalization of anything in the United States, it will cost EVEN MORE for the same, and now you have NO CHOICE to opt out of our shitty system!
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;28414823]Good thing everyone has money or else they would be fucked.[/QUOTE]
Yeah so let's shackle everyone to pay for health insurance because there are those out there who cannot afford it.
Sounds great... to a fascist.
[QUOTE=Strider*;28414837]Workers in China and Africa are better off with their jobs than they were before that industry was introduced to their country.
The more those industries grow the better off the workers will be.
China and Africa need industry and with industry comes higher wages and improved production.[/QUOTE]
China is a massive shithole though
Also what we need to tackle is the cost of living and not dick around with employers
I was talking about the no chains capitalism thing. I mean you could also look at the industrial revolution and how great those guys were treated. Really what makes you think they will get paid more? isn't the whole reason why businesses outsource to other countries is because they don't have to pay them the same?
[QUOTE=Strider*;28414820]I have met two people who have migrated from Canada to the United States. One was the son of a doctor and the other a girl whose family was fed up with the Canadian system.
I pay for more advanced clinics, higher trained doctors, superior technology, and some of the fastest treatment in the world.
Which country do you think most medical advancements come from?[/QUOTE]
Canada is ahead of you in world research on cancer fighting. Yeah, you're sooooo great.
Seriously, you're making me laugh with your shitty arguments. Come on, anecdotal bullshit? More american exceptionalism?
[QUOTE=Broseph_;28414859]China is a massive shithole though[/QUOTE]
The vast majority of the country is.
The most well off people in the entirety of China are the citizens of Hong Kong who have decided to embrace free market principles in their economy.
Hong Kong is the beacon of light in the dark void that is China.
[QUOTE=Strider*;28414879]The vast majority of the country is.
The most well off people in the entirety of China are the citizens of Hong Kong who have decided to embrace free market principles in their economy.
Hong Kong is the beacon of light in the dark void that is China.[/QUOTE]
keep on digging.
I still don't care what you conservative Americans say, but socialized medicine is great. I have gone to the hospital several times. Everytime I was waiting less than 30 minutes. That's great if I don't have to pay it out of my own pocket. The thing that makes no sense to me at all is WHY you are still paying for healthcare. The United States spends way more money on health care per person per year, $5711, vs us Canadians at $2998 per person per year. That should be more than enough to spend on your healthcare.
[img]http://www.visualeconomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/worldhealthcare.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=Strider*;28414857]Yeah so let's shackle everyone to pay for health insurance because there are those out there who cannot afford it.
Sounds great... to a fascist.[/QUOTE]
Well if you aren't tossing around the term 'fascist', that is somewhat a accurate description of fascist economics... I think
Yep those workers would have been paid more if they just believed in capitalism more. Really, the reason they get paid so little is because they can get away with it and because it makes products cheaper meaning that poor people can buy it.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;28414875]Canada is ahead of you in world research on cancer fighting. Yeah, you're sooooo great.[/QUOTE]
I doubt that claim, but I'll consider it.
In the United States the government accounts for only a small amount (less than 5%) of the drugs currently in production on the market the free profit driven medical industry accounts for the rest.
Keep in mind much of the world relies on the drugs invented and produced in the United States.
[editline]4th March 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;28414894]keep on digging.[/QUOTE]
[img]http://vincentvanderveken.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/hong-kong.jpg[/img]
Beautiful.
[QUOTE=OogalaBoogal;28414903]I still don't care what you conservative Americans say, but socialized medicine is great. I have gone to the hospital several times. Everytime I was waiting less than 30 minutes. That's great if I don't have to pay it out of my own pocket. The thing that makes no sense to me at all is WHY you are still paying for healthcare. The United States spends way more money on health care per person per year, $5711, vs us Canadians at $2998 per person per year. That should be more than enough to spend on your healthcare.
[img_thumb]http://www.visualeconomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/worldhealthcare.jpg[/img_thumb][/QUOTE]
Because the U.S. population is too large and diverse to introduce it, while most other countries introduced it decades, or even over a century ago
[QUOTE=Strider*;28414915]I doubt that claim, but I'll consider it.
In the United States the government accounts for only a small amount (less than 5%) of the drugs currently in production on the market the free profit driven medical industry accounts for the rest.
Keep in mind much of the world relies on the drugs invented and produced in the United States.[/QUOTE]
I don't expect you to believe it, you're an american exceptionalist.
Yeah, i think, your country having the Pharma industry it does is a double edged sword, it's not that great, and it's not the right industry to tout and be proud of. As much as it potentially helps people.
[editline]3rd March 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Broseph_;28414926]Because the U.S. population is too large and diverse to introduce it, while most other countries introduced it decades, or even over a century ago[/QUOTE]
I don't think it's too difficult, I think the US just needs it's own specially designed system.
[QUOTE=Strider*;28414915]I doubt that claim, but I'll consider it.
In the United States the government accounts for only a small amount (less than 5%) of the drugs currently in production on the market the free profit driven medical industry accounts for the rest.
Keep in mind much of the world relies on the drugs invented and produced in the United States.[/QUOTE]
Your main problem is that you think the US is the greatest country in the world.
And that's fucking retarded.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;28414931]I don't expect you to believe it, you're an american exceptionalist.
Yeah, i think, your country having the Pharma industry it does is a double edged sword, it's not that great, and it's not the right industry to tout and be proud of..[/QUOTE]
I'm proud of what remains of our free market.
I am in every sense of the word a capitalist exceptionalist not an American.
[QUOTE=Strider*;28414960]I'm proud of what remains of our free market.
I am in every sense of the word a capitalist exceptionalist not an American.[/QUOTE]
Keep telling yourself that.
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