European Court of Human Rights upholds French full-face veil ban
63 replies, posted
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;45267761]Security risk? Like, somebody wearing a mask a rob a place or shoot somebody? How is this law going to stop that.[/QUOTE]
It's also a problem with fraud since some people have tried to access bank information while wearing full-face veils and refused to take it off to certify they were the rightful owner of that account.
Then again the amount of people that actually did this is so marginal it's not a nearly good enough reason for that stupid law to even exist - everyone knows the real reason was that the right wing that originally voted for that law just wanted to appeal to far right nutjobs some more (that, and the government was somehow under the false impression that women wearing full face veils were ALL forced to do so by abusive husbands).
I mean we've also had issues with pregnant muslim women refusing help from male doctors when giving brith, which sometimes even sparked fights where the husband would physically assault the doctor who was just trying to do his job, but we didn't specifically write down a law that prevents muslim individuals from refusing medical help from male doctors because that's basically already illegal.
Our women fought for their emancipation and their rights, some loosing their life for it. The Niqab and Burqa are an incredible step backward. Keep in mind this shit is overkill, [url=http://lillianmwoodall.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/typesofmuslimveil.gif]not just some hair coverup[/url]. Regular veils are not targeted by this law.
So yeah no, if they're really fanatic enough to wear this (whom most aren't and do it out of pressure), they can do it in the islamic country of their choice. This is a laic country sure, but it has its limits and boundaries.
[editline]2nd July 2014[/editline]
"everyone knows the real reason was that the right wing that originally voted for that law just wanted to appeal to far right nutjobs some more (that, and the government was somehow under the false impression that women wearing full face veils were ALL forced to do so by abusive husbands)."
Far right wing nutjobs as you call them, represented 20% of the population back then. Now they're representing 30% and growing. They're a good slice of the country and maybe if we stopped calling them nutjobs and understand their concerns, things might go more smoothly.
Soon enough our economy will crumble to greek's standarts, I'd rather have a strong Front National than a weak Golden Dawn.
This is basically what is wrong with these clothes.
I've met young boys and girls from my old schools, and most of them doesn't even know the concept of racism, but they was really afraid of those "black phantoms". I'm really serious about that one, they were genuinely surprised when I told them who they was, and why they was wearing it.
Also, like he said, woman fought so hard to get their right to vote and to have the freedom they have now, and now this stupid thing from the Islamic culture is not even a step backward, it's a 180 from what they worked for.
The thing is, they [B]can't[/B] say it's a religious thing, because never, in any way, it is mentioned it their holy book. It's just in a set of stupid law that stayed because of a bunch of old dude who like to that kind of shit.
France isn't the "do what you want" country. It has religious freedom, yes, but it also have the fact that, in laic public places, there should be no way to recognize the beliefs of someone.
To be fair, even a lot of guy I know find these things stupid, and they believe in the same god than the girls that wear these.
[QUOTE=headshotter;45271647]Our women fought for their emancipation and their rights, some loosing their life for it. The Niqab and Burqa are an incredible step backward. Keep in mind this shit is overkill, [url=http://lillianmwoodall.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/typesofmuslimveil.gif]not just some hair coverup[/url]. Regular veils are not targeted by this law.
So yeah no, if they're really fanatic enough to wear this (whom most aren't and do it out of pressure), they can do it in the islamic country of their choice. This is a laic country sure, but it has its limits and boundaries.[/quote]
The word you're looking for is secular, not laic.
And the fact the country is secular means that you can't vote laws that favor one religion over another. If a part of your religion isn't about you directly harming someone else, then the government has no fucking ground to outlawing it on the grounds that they don't like it. There's no "secular to a point", the entire system boasts about how it stays out of religion's business yet every now and then people still try to pull off this shit.
Oh and you can't vote for a law on the grounds that you think how some people think. If some associations of muslims actually started demanding for a nation-wide ban on full face veils then maybe you'd have some ground but as it stands no one in the religious community even remotely asked for such a thing - we got the complete opposite, women wearing these niqabs and burqas you'd like to believe are some sort of mobile cloth prisons came out in the street and protested against the law, and you're not going to make me believe these women were beaten into submission by their husbands then sent outside on their own to protest.
Stop fucking talking in the name of these who have a mouth. If women have fought so hard for their rights before (and they're still doing it now) then if the niqab and the burqa were such huge deals of oppression then you'd be assured they'd be complaining about it too - people who're easier to take seriously than Femen would complain about it.
[QUOTE=headshotter;45271647]Far right wing nutjobs as you call them, represented 20% of the population back then. Now they're representing 30% and growing. They're a good slice of the country and maybe if we stopped calling them nutjobs and understand their concerns, things might go more smoothly.
Soon enough our economy will crumble to greek's standarts, I'd rather have a strong Front National than a weak Golden Dawn.[/QUOTE]
Yeah well guess what, the Nazi party also had a staggering rise in popularity during the 1930s, that doesn't mean they were any good - and their program at the start did not include anything blatantly evil. The FN was created by a crazy racist man who deeply sympathizes with Petain, who has a well known hatred for judaism and who denied the hollocaust ever happened, and it's his fucking daughter who's at the head of the party now (with parts of the family also assuming important roles among the party as well). Because 30% of the population is desperate and short-sighted enough to vote for lunatics doesn't mean they're right.
[QUOTE=soullink;45271776]This is basically what is wrong with these clothes.
I've met young boys and girls from my old schools, and most of them doesn't even know the concept of racism, but they was really afraid of those "black phantoms". I'm really serious about that one, they were genuinely surprised when I told them who they was, and why they was wearing it.[/quote]
What children think is not accountable when you're voting laws that affect adults in an entire nation. Kids are scared and impressed by all sorts of shit. What next, outlaw night because some kids are scared of the dark ?
[QUOTE=soullink;45271776]Also, like he said, woman fought so hard to get their right to vote and to have the freedom they have now, and now this stupid thing from the Islamic culture is not even a step backward, it's a 180 from what they worked for.[/quote]
Muslim culture, not islamic. That's not the same thing. Also, again, if women have free speech (and they have proven to be able to use it), let them do the fucking talking instead of taking the liberty of taking such huge decisions for them on the grounds of your own impressions and your own impressions alone.
[QUOTE=soullink;45271776]The thing is, they [B]can't[/B] say it's a religious thing, because never, in any way, it is mentioned it their holy book. It's just in a set of stupid law that stayed because of a bunch of old dude who like to that kind of shit.[/quote]
Even if this was true, you can't ban cultural beliefs if they aren't harming others in design. And, no, wearing a piece of cloth over your face does not harm others in design.
Also the veil may not be mentioned in their holy book, but neither are angels in the bible (at least not in the form we depict them as, if anything they're giant balls of murderous light that are trying really, really hard not to incinerate you on a whim). All of religion isn't necessarily written in a book, they don't update it every year to catalog every religious institution in the world. You also can't outlaw religious folklore.
[QUOTE=soullink;45271776]France isn't the "do what you want" country. It has religious freedom, yes, but it also have the fact that, in laic public places, there should be no way to recognize the beliefs of someone.[/quote]
That's not being secular, that's being oppressive. Being secular means that there is no state religion, and that not religion is favored over others. If you decide to make all signs of religious belief disappear from the public place then you are no longer being secular and are instead being a huge oppressive cunt. Also, going with that train of thought would imply that you'd have to demolish all churches and other temples (they're visible from outside and they make noise, obviously a threat to our secular lifestyle am I right), remove religious weddings and burial (they take place partly outside thus they can't be allowed), and outlaw adapted meals at schools for religious children.
[QUOTE=soullink;45271776]To be fair, even a lot of guy I know find these things stupid, and they believe in the same god than the girls that wear these.[/QUOTE]
It's almost like religious people aren't part of a unified drone hivemind and they can think for their own, what a surprise ! Wait, wouldn't that mean women wearing full face veils could also think for themselves ? Who knew !
[quote]
French law says nobody can wear in a public space clothing intended to conceal the face. The penalty for doing so can be a 150-euro fine (£120; $205).[/quote]
Does that relate to all sorts of masks?
[QUOTE=maxumym;45273077]Does that relate to all sorts of masks?[/QUOTE]
According to the BBC, health masks are ok, along with motorcycle helmets.
[QUOTE=maxumym;45273077]Does that relate to all sorts of masks?[/QUOTE]
Yeah, facepunchers beware because wearing a gas mask for no reason will get you fined just as much!
[QUOTE=deltasquid;45274501]Yeah, facepunchers beware because wearing a gas mask for no reason will get you fined just as much![/QUOTE]
i know you're joking but if gas masks weren't an ironic thing now i'd be willing to bet the reaction to this news would be way more divided. i know there used to be a thread about gas masks that had a ton of pages and i would be surprised if no one who posted in there also thinks this is good news
[QUOTE=toaster468;45268866]Good, if you are going to move to a country at least try to assimilate, either that or go back.[/QUOTE]
because you clearly live like a native american...
[QUOTE=toaster468;45268866]Good, if you are going to move to a country at least try to assimilate, either that or go back.[/QUOTE]
Now imagine the reaction if some chucklefuck American had said this about Hispanic immigrants in the US.
There would be outrage.
But it's because "de muslems" it's bad.
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;45274815]Now imagine the reaction if some chucklefuck American had said this about Hispanic immigrants in the US.
There would be outrage.
But it's because "de muslems" it's bad.[/QUOTE]
USA doesn't really have a specific culture like some european countries. It's a huge mishmash of stuff.
[QUOTE=dunkace;45271090]Good! Now if Britain could just do the same![/QUOTE]
it's funny that you take an authoritative stance on this but [URL="http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1404625&p=45222783&highlight=#post45222783"]you're liberal towards smoking and entirely against discouraging it[/URL], on the grounds that it's someone's choice to smoke or not regardless of how much it may or may not hurt them or anyone else (in spite of the fact that it's scientifically proven to do both). so you have no problem with people doing stuff that actually hurts themselves and other people, but someone wearing a mask of their own volition is [I]SUPER HUGE GET THE BBC ON THIS THIS NEEDS TO BE CHANGED[/I].
i mean i'm not saying you're a complete hypocrite but it's almost like you are actually a complete hypocrite
People who wear face cover of any sorts on the streets are weird, suspicious even.
[QUOTE=Cone;45274975] but someone wearing a mask of their own volition is [/QUOTE]
Forcing someone to smoke because it's in their religion is not ok just as forcing someone to wear a ninja robe in public is not ok. Even if it's a small % of women forced to wear that stupid ninja getup it's too high of a % to exist in a modern country.
[QUOTE=pkhzor;45275025]Forcing someone to smoke because it's in their religion is not ok just as forcing someone to wear a ninja robe in public is not ok. Even if it's a small % of women forced to wear that stupid ninja getup it's too high of a % to exist in a modern country.[/QUOTE]
That's fucking retarded. You don't ban something on the ground that there may be a small amount of people that'll be forced to do that one thing.
The amount of hypocrisy in this thread is astounding. Hell the amount of hypocrisy surrounding laws in France that are designed to discriminate against muslims is astounding.
[QUOTE=toaster468;45268866]Good, if you are going to move to a country at least try to assimilate, either that or go back.[/QUOTE]
You can't be for fucking real. Do you have any idea of the reasons behind so many muslims living in France ?
[QUOTE=pkhzor;45275025]Forcing someone to smoke because it's in their religion is not ok just as forcing someone to wear a ninja robe in public is not ok. Even if it's a small % of women forced to wear that stupid ninja getup it's too high of a % to exist in a modern country.[/QUOTE]
i'm not seeing where they were forced to wear that stuff? if a significant percentage of women go without then it should be very obvious that there's no obligation to wear one.
besides, this law ostensibly has nothing to do with allowing women to not wear religious masks, it's supposedly about face concealment and that just happens to coincide. so are you saying that the government forcing people to never conceal their faces is somehow less oppressive because it coincides with your r/atheism boner, or are you saying that this government legislation is actually entirely religiously-oriented, the French government have always had an ulterior motive, and they've exploited their legislative process under false pretenses to get what they want because they knew they couldn't do it normally? either way this bill is immeasurably terrible.
[editline]2nd July[/editline]
if this bill were really about greater liberty then it wouldn't exist
The thing is, it's completely superfluous to even outlaw face-concealing objects in public because if you're wearing it with the intent to break the law then there's already other laws in place to make sure whatever you want to do is illegal.
Every single reason why this bill exists is retarded.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;45275134]That's fucking retarded. You don't ban something on the ground that there may be a small amount of people that'll be forced to do that one thing.
The amount of hypocrisy in this thread is astounding. Hell the amount of hypocrisy surrounding laws in France that are designed to discriminate against muslims is astounding.
You can't be for fucking real. Do you have any idea of the reasons behind so many muslims living in France ?[/QUOTE]
Are you a muslim by any chance? I doubt any of the women are actually "super happy" as they claim to be while wearing the ninja robe from the medieval Japan. I'm sure it gets hot as fuck wearing one during the summer and not being allowed to take it off is kinda horrible, wouldn't you think?
I don't care what religion you are, you shouldn't be allowed to get away with stupid shit because of your religion. Stuff like slicing babydicks/vaginas and wearing ninjarobes because your religious background tells you to is dumb and should just be stopped altogether so we as a people can move on from these stone aged fashion symbols.
EDIT: Also, I bet if you actually took the numbers of the hijab ninjas who started wearing it voluntarily vs the ones who were peer pressured into wearing one by their families/husbands whatevers. You would see how it's really like.
Not sure if true but didn't the hijab ninja thing originate from soldiers being distracted by women so their plan was to cover them up and it somehow stuck?
[QUOTE=pkhzor;45275386]Are you a muslim by any chance? I doubt any of the women are actually "super happy" as they claim to be while wearing the ninja robe from the medieval Japan. I'm sure it gets hot as fuck wearing one during the summer and not being allowed to take it off is kinda horrible, wouldn't you think?
I don't care what religion you are, you shouldn't be allowed to get away with stupid shit because of your religion. Stuff like slicing babydicks/vaginas and wearing ninjarobes because your religious background tells you to is dumb and should just be stopped altogether so we as a people can move on from these stone aged fashion symbols.[/QUOTE]
You using "ninja robes" to define niqabs and burqas sure shows how intelligent you are about the subject.
I'm also not a muslim. I'm not religious at all, and I don't feel threatened by religion at all.
And nothing prevents you from ever leaving your veil, there are muslim women who never wear veils and there are other women that switch over from something less or more concealing. Not later than this afternoon I have seen women in full veil chill out and talk to their friends who were wearing no veil at all or just one that covered their hair and no one was getting stoned or coerced into anything.
People who keep calling niqabs/burqas the absolute epitome of dark ages customs (and people who compare wearing one to fucking excision, like what the shit is wrong with you) are mostly people who have never had any actual interaction with muslims and who just assume the crazy nutjobs from Saudi Arabia are representative of the muslims who live in France.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;45275440]You using "ninja robes" to define niqabs and burqas sure shows how intelligent you are about the subject.
I'm also not a muslim. I'm not religious at all, and I don't feel threatened by religion at all.
And nothing prevents you from ever leaving your veil, there are muslim women who never wear veils and there are other women that switch over from something less or more concealing. Not later than this afternoon I have seen women in full veil chill out and talk to their friends who were wearing no veil at all or just one that covered their hair and no one was getting stoned or coerced into anything.
People who keep calling niqabs/burqas the absolute epitome of dark ages customs (and people who compare wearing one to fucking excision, like what the shit is wrong with you) are mostly people who have never had any actual interaction with muslims and who just assume the crazy nutjobs from Saudi Arabia are representative of the muslims who live in France.[/QUOTE]
I don't assume anything about muslims, I assume a lot about ninja looking people. Are they trying to make a fashion statement is what you're saying then?
[QUOTE=pkhzor;45275025]Forcing someone to smoke because it's in their religion is not ok just as forcing someone to wear a ninja robe in public is not ok. Even if it's a small % of women forced to wear that stupid ninja getup it's too high of a % to exist in a modern country.[/QUOTE]
Actually they are not forced to wear the veil. They make that choice at an age where they feel responsible to take that responsibility. However I believe some are forced to wear due to pressure from family members and I feel that's the real problem. Not the veil it self.
[QUOTE=Hell_Kyrone;45275846]Actually they are not forced to wear the veil. They make that choice at an age where they feel responsible to take that responsibility. However I believe some are forced to wear due to pressure from family members and I feel that's the real problem. Not the veil it self.[/QUOTE]
Yeah if your family is coercing you into wearing certain clothing or behaving in a certain way then it's not even a problem with what they're forcing you with, it's a problem with your family being broken.
i still don't see how a blatantly Orwellian law restricting something as simple as wearing something on your face can somehow be construed as a good thing just cos that happens to also restrict Muslims. it's like the government necessitating that everyone eat at least ten pounds of shellfish a week or face a fine and then someone going "yeah sock it to em!" because that happens to cover Jews. at absolute best this was an unintended side effect of an otherwise immensely shitty law
[editline]2nd July[/editline]
i mean what if it's an especially bad winter and your face is just really cold, you can't even pull a scarf over your nose because people with covered faces are dangerous to civilized society. and it's not like they would ever actually catch someone who was doing illegal things and then prioritize the fact that he was covering his face, "oh yeah you tossed a molotov at a police barricade and horrifically killed an officer and wounded three more but YOU WERE WEARING A SCARF YOU INHUMAN MONSTER"
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;45275134]
You can't be for fucking real. Do you have any idea of the reasons behind so many muslims living in France ?[/QUOTE]
They want free money and to run away from their problems in their countries?
EDIT:
On a serious note. I don't have a problem with muslims, but if you are going to move to another country be prepared to adopt the new culture.
[QUOTE=toaster468;45276026]They want free money and to run away from their problems in their countries?
EDIT:
On a serious note. I don't have a problem with muslims, but if you are going to move to another country be prepared to adopt the new culture.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, you don't have any idea of the reason.
Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco were all French colonies for a long time, up until the 1960s, meaning that a lot of French people ended in these countries and a lot of people from Maghreb ended up in France, brining their culture and religion with them.
So basically the actual immigrants from the past generations have been here for a very long time and the newer generations are as French as anyone else - it doesn't mean that they aren't attached to their culture, however.
Long story short, it's not like we got invaded overnight. This is the consequence of decades of colonization and cultural exchange (however unequal that was). Complaining about muslims and arabs being in France is basically as retarded as complaining about black people being in the United States.
But seriously, I don't think any of these woman wear these because they think it's pretty or fashion.
You are influenced by your family in your childhood.
I'm not a dick because I have chosen to, but because I was educated like that.
It's the same. Young girl was told that they needed to hide their body entirely, and since they saw their mothers and others wear it, they though that it was the way to go. It may not be true for some of them, but hell, it's valid for a lot of things in life. There is no need to force stuff on woman when they were told that all their young life.
Also, a quick reminder that the child of today will be the adult of tomorrow. Don't tell me they don't vote our laws, because they will, and they will remember everything while making a decision.
Saying that they are spooked by the night isn't going to change this. You can't ban the night. But being scared of a set of clothes that can be changed is a valid reason to form a negative opinion on the veil.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;45272374]The word you're looking for is secular, not laic.
And the fact the country is secular means that you can't vote laws that favor one religion over another. If a part of your religion isn't about you directly harming someone else, then the government has no fucking ground to outlawing it on the grounds that they don't like it. There's no "secular to a point", the entire system boasts about how it stays out of religion's business yet every now and then people still try to pull off this shit.
Oh and you can't vote for a law on the grounds that you think how some people think. If some associations of muslims actually started demanding for a nation-wide ban on full face veils then maybe you'd have some ground but as it stands no one in the religious community even remotely asked for such a thing - we got the complete opposite, women wearing these niqabs and burqas you'd like to believe are some sort of mobile cloth prisons came out in the street and protested against the law, and you're not going to make me believe these women were beaten into submission by their husbands then sent outside on their own to protest.
Stop fucking talking in the name of these who have a mouth. If women have fought so hard for their rights before (and they're still doing it now) then if the niqab and the burqa were such huge deals of oppression then you'd be assured they'd be complaining about it too - people who're easier to take seriously than Femen would complain about it.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the language check.
If you're really going to be nitpicky about law, then it doesn't even fucking matter what your definition of a secular country is. Our country outlawed fullface coverup in public, the Niqab / Burqa is a fullface coverup, therefore it is banned. The country being secular, there shouldn't be any exception because of religion.
I'm not suggesting they're being beaten systematicly, but peer-pressure and communautarism are thing. If you were born in an integrist family and/or a community that has strong religious beliefs, you're literally brainwashed into it. You're not going to convince me that if given the choice (misunderstanding in the Quran scriptures) they'll stick to what is, indeed, a clothing prison.
Oh and feminists are complaining about all sort of religious pressure over women's rights, and I'm not talking about nutjobs like Femens. It just takes a bit more balls to criticize such dehumanizing practices since you're immediatly labelled as a racist.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;45272374]Yeah well guess what, the Nazi party also had a staggering rise in popularity during the 1930s, that doesn't mean they were any good - and their program at the start did not include anything blatantly evil. The FN was created by a crazy racist man who deeply sympathizes with Petain, who has a well known hatred for judaism and who denied the hollocaust ever happened, and it's his fucking daughter who's at the head of the party now (with parts of the family also assuming important roles among the party as well). Because 30% of the population is desperate and short-sighted enough to vote for lunatics doesn't mean they're right.[/QUOTE]
Oh enough with this bullshit, it's as if you're believing the crap you're spewing. Let's have an history lesson shall we:
The nazis immediatly took violent actions against the opposition (communists), progressively moved on to various others. Since the very beggining of Hitler's backdoor meetings, hatred towards jews was there.
The FN was created by Jean Marie Le Pen, a man who has fought in the Algerian war, was the first to ask for recognition of the harkis (when everyone, left and right wing wouldn't hear a word about it) and whose best friend's named Cohen. Calling this complex person a "crazy racist man" shows how much you know about him (not much aside from what the TV tells).
And don't bring up the whole Vichy stuff, this is getting old. Petain was elected mostly by SFIO deputies and the Vichy governement had at its head a lot of SFIO guys. Former Président François Mitterand (left wing PS) was a collaborator and kept close ties with them. Now if you want to take the FN as the sole representant of the far-right wing (which is stupid), I'll have you reminded far-right wing militants were amongst the first to join the resistance back in WWII. Communists collaborated until the Moscow pact blew up, SFIO and Parti Radical didn't take strong actions.
Now, since Marine Le Pen took over (elected by the party's members btw), I'll have you reminded the FN is a left wing party with bits of right wing ideology. You could try and turn it however you want, if you keep using the far-right wing terminology you didn't read the programs and thereof shouldn't be talking about it.
Those 30% of "lunatics" as you call them wouldn't be there and growing if the PS and RPR had done their jobs protecting our countries interest for the past 30 years. They literally shat on what De Gaulle tried to protect and dare calling themselves Gaullists. I'm much better off being a lunatic by your standarts than a traitor by mine.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;45276323]Yeah, you don't have any idea of the reason.
Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco were all French colonies for a long time, up until the 1960s, meaning that a lot of French people ended in these countries and a lot of people from Maghreb ended up in France, brining their culture and religion with them.
So basically the actual immigrants from the past generations have been here for a very long time and the newer generations are as French as anyone else - it doesn't mean that they aren't attached to their culture, however.
Long story short, it's not like we got invaded overnight. This is the consequence of decades of colonization and cultural exchange (however unequal that was). Complaining about muslims and arabs being in France is basically as retarded as complaining about black people being in the United States.[/QUOTE]
How long they have been there does not even mean anything. If there are still Maghreb muslism in France after that long then that means that they did not assimilate.
[editline]2nd July 2014[/editline]
Also get off your high horse, I am aware of the history of France fuckwit.
snip
[QUOTE=Cone;45274640]i know you're joking but if gas masks weren't an ironic thing now i'd be willing to bet the reaction to this news would be way more divided. i know there used to be a thread about gas masks that had a ton of pages and i would be surprised if no one who posted in there also thinks this is good news[/QUOTE]
Eh, I think that this first passed before gas masks became an ironic thing and we had a thread about it then as well. I can't remember if that was before or during the period of time in which we had a gas mask thread in GD.
But the reaction was pretty similar.
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