• Standoff ends between police, Occupy DC protesters
    54 replies, posted
There needs to be organization though, without organization you have no clear goals
but then how are you going to get anything done i mean the whole "no one leader" idea's great but seriously, look at any modern political form. there has to be a distinct "leadership" in there somewhere, it's not going to work on some hivemind where everyone simultaneously decides what to do.
[QUOTE=InsanePyro;33577902]The armored truck was totally nessesary[/QUOTE] Have you considered that maybe the truck they used was not because it was armored, but it was the only truck avaiable that was tall enough? god damn you americans. Once you hear any words having anything to do with war you piss your pants, put them on your head and go full retard.
[QUOTE=Mio Akiyama;33577936]There needs to be organization though, without organization you have no clear goals[/QUOTE] There are clear goals, it's just that there are a lot of them. If you [I]cannot find them,[/I] look harder. It's about income inequality, it's about corporate influence in government, it's about the myriad of problems that exist within the current system. It is so nuanced an issue that, to just say "this is what it is" in so few words would not do it proper justice. However, here are just a few simple things that have already been proposed: 1. Re-instate the Glass-Steagall Act 2. Set new restrictions on campaign finance, ensure that all or nearly all campaign funds are from the public coffer and thus are publicly accountable. 3. Return top tax bracket to 38% as it was during Clinton's presidency. and so on.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;33578051]There are clear goals, it's just that there are a lot of them. If you [I]cannot find them,[/I] look harder. It's about income inequality, it's about corporate influence in government, it's about the myriad of problems that exist within the current system. It is so nuanced an issue that, to just say "this is what it is" in so few words would not do it proper justice. However, here are just a few simple things that have already been proposed: 1. Re-instate the Glass-Steagall Act 2. Set new restrictions on campaign finance, ensure that all or nearly all campaign funds are from the public coffer and thus are publicly accountable. 3. Return top tax bracket to 38% as it was during Clinton's presidency. and so on.[/QUOTE] but that's just one proposed list. key word = proposed. it's not the actual demands of the entire OWS movement, and that's where the issue lies. ows' failures to do, well, anything apart from get gassed and yell comes from their inability to actually provide an alternative. it's not enough to say "we don't like this defacto" - you need to actually provide a replacement system. they're not doing that, and consequently they're not really appealing to mainstream western society and actually don't provide any option for the change they seek to bring about. as much as i think lenin was a bastard who helped ruin russia for years, as a revolutionary, he had some things right - you can't just be noble, you need to be practical and organised. ows only has one of these things, and that's not enough.
[QUOTE=R3N3GADE;33578112]but that's just one proposed list. key word = proposed. it's not the actual demands of the entire OWS movement, and that's where the issue lies. ows' failures to do, well, anything apart from get gassed and yell comes from their inability to actually provide an alternative. it's not enough to say "we don't like this defacto" - you need to actually provide a replacement system. they're not doing that, and consequently they're not really appealing to mainstream western society and actually don't provide any option for the change they seek to bring about. as much as i think lenin was a bastard who helped ruin russia for years, as a revolutionary, he had some things right - you can't just be noble, you need to be practical and organised. ows only has one of these things, and that's not enough.[/QUOTE] The point of a protest movement is not to be the other party in a political dialogue, it is supposed to be a point of saying "there's something deeply wrong here, do something about it!". Citizen protestors are bound not to know the intricacies of policy and politics, as many of them don't come from organizations of a political nature.
[QUOTE=Mio Akiyama;33577936]There needs to be organization though, without organization you have no clear goals[/QUOTE]There is organization, but everything functions as a collective. There does not have to be some distinct leader for a group to function.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;33578213]The point of a protest movement is not to be the other party in a political dialogue, it is supposed to be a point of saying "there's something deeply wrong here, do something about it!". Citizen protestors are bound not to know the intricacies of policy and politics, as many of them don't come from organizations of a political nature.[/QUOTE] like what, exactly? there actually isn't some simple process to fix deep-rooted socio-economic division and wealth inequality which politicians can follow. saying that "it's not our job to fix it" would therefore allow me to get all my mates and sit in the park for world peace, and by golly if my local MP doesn't set about achieving my world peace, there'll be hell! no, ows actually needs to suggest some kind of opposing system, if they want real change - otherwise, sitting there and expecting "someone else" to do it will achieve squat.
except they've suggested a few things that would assist making the US political and economic system fairer and they're not as detailed or nuanced as I would like, but it's a start
[QUOTE=Contag;33578369]except they've suggested a few things that would assist making the US political and economic system fairer and they're not as detailed or nuanced as I would like, but it's a start[/QUOTE] They're not detailed and nuanced because they're just citizens and workers, not political savants.
Those who make peaceful protest impossible make violent revolution inevitable.
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;33578226]There is organization, but everything functions as a collective. There does not have to be some distinct leader for a group to function.[/QUOTE] Maybe in some applications there does need to be a leader for the group to function, but a protest is not one of them, especially the Occupy protests. That's just a stupid notion.
Nice
[QUOTE=SPESSMEHREN;33576516] Street vendors, food trucks, lemondae stands, the types of things that you'd expect to see in a public park that can no longer operate due to the protests.[/QUOTE] But that food truck would be taking up the space that 2 or even THREE lemonade stands would take up. The lemonade stands can no longer operate due to the food trucks! Arrest the food trucks. My point: everyone in the park is taking up space that could be used by someone else. Public places are, by definition, first come first serve. The protesters have equal right to be there as the food trucks/street vendors/lemonade stands.
I love how people say "you can protest as long as you dont break laws" If there are so many laws that can be used against peaceful protest, the laws become irreverent. Protesters then start using their own moral compass instead of looking to the law for what they can and cant do, thats the fucking point of the protest. Rosa Parks anyone?
[QUOTE=Mattk50;33579503] Rosa Parks anyone?[/QUOTE]Terrorist Criminal Scum.
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;33579698]Terrorist Criminal Scum.[/QUOTE] Not to mention the tremendous inconvenience she caused! I mean really, go on about your "civil rights" all you want but don't get real people wrapped up in it by making the bus late.
[QUOTE=notxmania;33579842]Not to mention the tremendous inconvenience she caused! I mean really, go on about your "civil rights" all you want but don't get real people wrapped up in it by making the bus late.[/QUOTE] Holy fuck the irony hit me in the face like a bowling ball.
I do not understand the whole thing about this building that was put up and why everyone is crying about it being taken down. I mean, seriously. Just because it is a public space does not mean that you can just show up and do whatever you damn well please. BRB. Going to erect myself a new house in the middle of a large intersection - it's public property and I am an AMERICAN and can do whatever the FUCK I WANT!!! Oh, and it will not just be a house. If I hang a little "Occupy (Insert place here)" It'll totally make it legit because it is part of a protest - and when I am a part of anything OCCUPY I can do WHATEVER THE FUCK I WANT ON PUBLIC PROPERTY! Woooo! Let's see how far this gets me! Wish me luck, guys!
[QUOTE=HkSniper;33581453]I do not understand the whole thing about this building that was put up and why everyone is crying about it being taken down. I mean, seriously. Just because it is a public space does not mean that you can just show up and do whatever you damn well please. BRB. Going to erect myself a new house in the middle of a large intersection - it's public property and I am an AMERICAN and can do whatever the FUCK I WANT!!! Oh, and it will not just be a house. If I hang a little "Occupy (Insert place here)" It'll totally make it legit because it is part of a protest - and when I am a part of anything OCCUPY I can do WHATEVER THE FUCK I WANT ON PUBLIC PROPERTY! Woooo! Let's see how far this gets me! Wish me luck, guys![/QUOTE]Aren't you a notorious shit-poster?
[QUOTE=HkSniper;33581453]I do not understand the whole thing about this building that was put up and why everyone is crying about it being taken down. I mean, seriously. Just because it is a public space does not mean that you can just show up and do whatever you damn well please. BRB. Going to erect myself a new house in the middle of a large intersection - it's public property and I am an AMERICAN and can do whatever the FUCK I WANT!!! Oh, and it will not just be a house. If I hang a little "Occupy (Insert place here)" It'll totally make it legit because it is part of a protest - and when I am a part of anything OCCUPY I can do WHATEVER THE FUCK I WANT ON PUBLIC PROPERTY! Woooo! Let's see how far this gets me! Wish me luck, guys![/QUOTE] Actually, roads, high-ways, free-ways, interstates, etc. are owned by their respective states, and therefor not public property. Difference is that they don't have "no trespassing" posted on them because damn, wouldn't that be inconvenient to everyone else?
[QUOTE=Mattk50;33579503]I love how people say "you can protest as long as you dont break laws" If there are so many laws that can be used against peaceful protest, the laws become irreverent. Protesters then start using their own moral compass instead of looking to the law for what they can and cant do, thats the fucking point of the protest. Rosa Parks anyone?[/QUOTE] Actually the discussion was not about "breaking laws," it was about how far one group's stranglehold on a public space should be allowed to go before it begins to infringe on the general public's rights. And if protesters' "moral compasses" are saying that their "messages" are more important than anyone elses, so they should therefore be allowed to take over public spaces and block them from public use, what does that say about Occupy? And would you care to cite specific local ordinances or bylaws in Washington, DC that are being used against peaceful protest? Or are you referring to police department's crowd control methods that prevent giant clusterfucks in the middle of major intersections? [editline]5th December 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Zeke129;33578958]But that food truck would be taking up the space that 2 or even THREE lemonade stands would take up. The lemonade stands can no longer operate due to the food trucks! Arrest the food trucks. My point: everyone in the park is taking up space that could be used by someone else. Public places are, by definition, first come first serve. The protesters have equal right to be there as the food trucks/street vendors/lemonade stands.[/QUOTE] You're absolutely right in that respect. Public parks are public spaces on a first come first serve basis. If you want to hold an event like a concert or something, you can file papers with the city or the park's owner to get it reserved for your use. Want to hold a rally? Get there at opening time. The problem with Occupy though is that they refuse to respect the park's posted closing times. They took the park months ago on a first-come, first-serve basis, and haven't left since. Therefore, the park has not been operating on a "first-come, first-serve" basis ever since Occupy set up their tent city.
[QUOTE=Zero-Point;33581515]Actually, roads, high-ways, free-ways, interstates, etc. are owned by their respective states, and therefor not public property. Difference is that they don't have "no trespassing" posted on them because damn, wouldn't that be inconvenient to everyone else?[/QUOTE] A lot of parks, etc, are state owned and still considered 'public property'...but regardless. Public property does not mean you just show up and do whatever you damn well please. That is not how things work in society. That includes streets, parks, whatever - you can not just show up and start erecting a permanent structure there because it is 'public property'. That does not entitle you to do as you damn well please on it. [editline]5th December 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;33581474]Aren't you a notorious shit-poster?[/QUOTE] No.
[QUOTE=HkSniper;33582270]A lot of parks, etc, are state owned and still considered 'public property'...but regardless. Public property does not mean you just show up and do whatever you damn well please. That is not how things work in society.[/QUOTE] Really? Society is a very subjective thing to discuss amongst other people and how they view it in general. So your society doesn't allow peaceful protest taking up public land while committing no laws whatsoever just because they're a big scene and the land "could be used better" when most of the fucking time I've ever looked at a public park, they seem pretty dead and vacant. I believe if you have a message and can voice it responsibly, that land is yours for as long as you can keep your voice responsible. One thing I like is how the protesters want to keep bad people away from their protests, but no one really mentions that. [QUOTE=HkSniper;33582270]That includes streets, parks, whatever - you can not just show up and start erecting a permanent structure there because it is 'public property'. That does not entitle you to do as you damn well please on it.[/QUOTE] It doesn't include streets unless you can get a permit as far as I'm aware, I don't really know about this to be honest. I also know one of the criteria to be deemed Publicly Intoxicated in California specifically is to be blocking a major thoroughfare like a street or highway, so you can't do what you want on a road unless you shelve out the money for say a parade permit or something. As for parks, yes you can because it's public land and the public can use it how they see fit, and these protesters are members of the public so stop with this "they can't do this on that!" bullshit. I know they were making houses and what not here, but they're not really going to be permanent. It may go up, but I'm fairly sure the protesters would have torn it down in joy if any of their demands were met.
I would have arrested them too. That building looks awful. No way that's up to code. Probably did not pull permits to erect it either.
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