Just in: North and South Korea 'exchange land border fire'
73 replies, posted
[QUOTE=joshdasmif;46198995]They should of had the brains to see that NK won't allow this kind of shit, it's the people of SK who did in fact start this. They know what their northern brothers are like[/QUOTE]
activists did the balloons, not the SK army, NK was just dumb enough to shoot at balloons with mobile AA aimed toward SK. It's their fault for doing stupid shit that would merit return fire
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;46199610]There's a good chance that North Korea will win this[/QUOTE]
NK will amass their army along the border, and have the shit bombed out of it by US jets from their carrier they keep nearby and their bases in Japan. They will scatter, many will defect, China has said NK is on their own if they're the aggressor, yet SK will have the US, and possibly the EU and Canada as well. NK has no hope in hell of winning a war with the South because of the US, else they'd have done it by now.
[QUOTE=Swebonny;46199412]I just read that the North didn't fire artillery shells towards the South, but they fired this
[img]http://i.imgur.com/0qMH97S.jpg[/img]
toward the balloons.
Kinda funny I think :v:[/QUOTE]
Enemy air assault, open fire!
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;46199610]There's a good chance that North Korea will win this[/QUOTE]
Only, not. Because it would be tantamount to invading US territory. See: Our various military bases there. Their kit is 70+ years outdated, their soldiers in shambles, and their leader missing. Tell me how they win that conflict.
[QUOTE=Showgun;46198734]you do know the North has 5,000,000 soldiers at their disposal right? they're not gonna just walk straight to Pyongyang, even if the Norths equipment and training suck compared to the South and its allies it'll be a bloodbath[/QUOTE]
5000000 soldiers that are fed like 50k and most likely will defect the second they get the chance.
[QUOTE=Whiplash~;46198978]Something has to be done, we shouldn't just sit around apathetically while they're oppressing people like this and we all know it.[/QUOTE]
No, no we shouldn't. I'm tired of the WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING mentality my country has. If NK wants to throw the first stone and invade SK, then sure, we should do something. But until then, Nope. It's not our place to say Hey you're doing this wrong we're going to change it by force, and use up billions of dollars and thousands of lives to achieve what will essentially be making things worse. Look at Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam. Especially Vietnam. What good did we do there? Not a fucking thing, and it's almost a great place now, no thanks to us what so ever, yet look at all the money and death that took place. For nothing.
[QUOTE=Killuah;46199813]5000000 soldiers that are fed like 50k and most likely will defect the second they get the chance.[/QUOTE]
I don't there's any grounds for saying the NK army numbers 5m men. Sure, they could theoretically get to that number, but I'm pretty sure thy wouldn't be able to put them to use in any way. Even their (few) fighter pilots aren't getting any training.
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;46199610]There's a good chance that North Korea will win this[/QUOTE]
No.
South Korea has one of the most powerful militaries in the world. They're far more powerful than North Korea. I remember an interview with a retire American general and he said that one of the main reasons why the US can't leave South Korea is because within a month of leaving, they would invade North Korea and destroy them.
[QUOTE=TheTalon;46199867]No, no we shouldn't. I'm tired of the WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING mentality my country has. If NK wants to throw the first stone and invade SK, then sure, we should do something. But until then, Nope. It's not our place to say Hey you're doing this wrong we're going to change it by force, and use up billions of dollars and thousands of lives to achieve what will essentially be making things worse. Look at Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam. Especially Vietnam. What good did we do there? Not a fucking thing, and it's almost a great place now, no thanks to us what so ever, yet look at all the money and death that took place. For nothing.[/QUOTE]
I think it's highly debatable whether the middle east is more fucked than it was before (okay, ISIS, yeah, but as far as I understand, life has improved for many people, girls are going to school, etc.), but NK is just a completely different place. There are basically extermination camps, and I think an unstable NK would be better than an NK where people are worked to death. NK can't get much more fucked than it already is.
[QUOTE=joshdasmif;46198995]They should of had the brains to see that NK won't allow this kind of shit, it's the people of SK who did in fact start this. They know what their northern brothers are like[/QUOTE]
On the other hand the North Koreans opened fire, on balloons.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;46199935]I think it's highly debatable whether the middle east is more fucked than it was before (okay, ISIS, yeah, but as far as I understand, life has improved for many people, girls are going to school, etc.), but NK is just a completely different place. There are basically extermination camps, and I think an unstable NK would be better than an NK where people are worked to death. NK can't get much more fucked than it already is.[/QUOTE]
How bad things are doesn't make a huge difference. What matters is the fact that NK has suffered under a horrific, oppressive Communist regime for the past sixty years. For most North Koreans, spending your entire life under the heel of a military state is simply a fact of life. I don't know whether they really think NK is the best country on Earth, but the entire country, or most of it, has been brainwashed into believing that their leader is actually a living god.
Under those conditions, you don't turn it into a successful Western-style democracy simply by blowing up a few government buildings, occupying the country, setting up polling stations and telling them they can vote now.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;46199661]Not really. It might end up real bloody, but while the NK army is large, it's far from modern or really well trained. Not saying it'll be like the Gulf War (I'm no military expert by any means (who on this forum is, though)), but they're really not very well equipped.
Not saying I think a war is the way to resolve this.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Explosions;46199928]No.
South Korea has one of the most powerful militaries in the world. They're far more powerful than North Korea. I remember an interview with a retire American general and he said that one of the main reasons why the US can't leave South Korea is because within a month of leaving, they would invade North Korea and destroy them.[/QUOTE]
North Korea has nukes
having nuclear arms =/= guaranteed victory.
NATO, ABCA etc. have a lot more arms (In general.)
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I'm not taking a jab at anyone in particular but why does every armchair general assume North Korea could successfully win anything just because of the manpower they have, they are on the same level of a army training wise circa world war one, and if WW1 taught us anything it's that military manpower doesn't mean a whole lot if you don't know how to use it properly.
Also since North Korea begs for re-unification I doubt they'd be very quick to the idea of using nuclear arms on South Korea.
in the hypothetical situation of North Korea invading the South they'd probably retreat after a couple days after they run out of food and ammo.
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;46200317]North Korea has nukes[/QUOTE]
They've made 3 nuclear tests - iirc one or two fizzles and in general just below the expected yield. They may have a bomb or two, but we (meaning "I") really don't know how many they've manufactured, and whether their size is manageable. It's reasonable to assume that the gadgets are pretty big, so they'd probably have to use a IL-28 to deliver one of those. Total air superiority would be achieved by SK/US in a fairly short time span, and one of those old planes would have trouble getting anywhere.
The NK Air Force bases are also (probably) pretty well-known locations - chances are they'd have trouble even getting their planes of the runway before being shot down.
I know quite a few people stationed in SK. Once a month they do cbrne drills (chemical, biological, radioactive nuclear, high yield explosives) so that goes to show how serious we take the north Korean threat.
[QUOTE=Explosions;46199928]No.
South Korea has one of the most powerful militaries in the world. They're far more powerful than North Korea. I remember an interview with a retire American general and he said that one of the main reasons why the US can't leave South Korea is because within a month of leaving, they would invade North Korea and destroy them.[/QUOTE]
Why would the US care if NK gets destroyed or not? NK is an enemy of the US
Even if you're a mechanic or a pencil pusher, when you deploy to SK they make sure you're proficient with an M16 and an M9 just like if you were going to Iraq or Afghanistan.
[QUOTE=breakyourfac;46200533]Even if you're a mechanic or a pencil pusher, when you deploy to SK they make sure you're proficient with an M16 and an M9 just like if you were going to Iraq or Afghanistan.[/QUOTE]
yeah um, even if you're a pencil pusher in washington state they make sure you're a proficient soldier/marine/sailor/airman, every branch of the military makes you it's not unique to deployments with green and red zones.
I wonder if just pumping these things across the border on a regular basis would be enough to make them plow through their stores of ammunition.
I mean, think about it: If they waste a couple hundred rounds of ammunition on each balloon (IE they suck at aiming at shit, can't train when you can't eat), and we send a couple thousand balloons across the border, it might be worth it.
Well the odd part is that, at least in the air force, we don't have any specialized training with weapons unless we're going to Iraq or Afghanistan, which are full fledged deployments. South Korea isn't a war zone but it's treated as such.
Not sure if the NK army has changed much since the Korean War, but what happened in that war was that North Korea were able to overwhelm a small force of American and South Korean soldiers, then NATO/US reinforcements arrived and pushed them all the way back to the Chinese border.
And then China got involved and the US/NATO were pushed back to the current border.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;46200397]They've made 3 nuclear tests - iirc one or two fizzles and in general just below the expected yield. They may have a bomb or two, but we (meaning "I") really don't know how many they've manufactured, and whether their size is manageable. It's reasonable to assume that the gadgets are pretty big, so they'd probably have to use a IL-28 to deliver one of those. Total air superiority would be achieved by SK/US in a fairly short time span, and one of those old planes would have trouble getting anywhere.
The NK Air Force bases are also (probably) pretty well-known locations - chances are they'd have trouble even getting their planes of the runway before being shot down.[/QUOTE]
Even one is enough to kill a lot of South Koreans. Realistically, they probably have around a dozen
You don't underestimate the enemy, there's a reason why South Korea and NATO haven't toppled the Juche regime yet
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;46201101]Even one is enough to kill a lot of South Koreans. Realistically, they probably have around a dozen
You don't underestimate the enemy, there's a reason why South Korea and NATO haven't toppled the Juche regime yet[/QUOTE]
NK didn't prove any nuclear capability until 2006 - what was the reasoning before that?
Anyway, I'm not saying it would be the easiest thing ever - it would be a really bloody conflict - but the notion that NK could potentially win is misguided, in my opinion. Sure, they could *potentially* bomb Seoul, but what then?
[QUOTE=Crash155;46199104]Most of them can't even fire a gun without shitting their pants, though[/QUOTE]
Well they also don't have guns to fire so...
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;46201125]Sure, they could *potentially* bomb Seoul, but what then?[/QUOTE]
terror and panic
the point is we don't want ANY civilians dying, regardless if the good guys win.
[QUOTE=zupadupazupadude;46200873]Not sure if the NK army has changed much since the Korean War, but what happened in that war was that North Korea were able to overwhelm a small force of American and South Korean soldiers, then NATO/US reinforcements arrived and pushed them all the way back to the Chinese border.
And then China got involved and the US/NATO were pushed back to the current border.[/QUOTE]
NK hasn't changed much, but everyone else has. China has stated they won't aid NK if a war with the south occurs, and both SK and the US have bulked up considerably in the last 60 years.
People forget, with NK you are not just trying to free a country, you are also trying to disband an entire religion
A majority of NK's people believe Kim is a god, yes a lot of people know better but a large section won't and they will fight for it.
And the much much MUCH worse thing...
If say, NK IS free'd what would happen next, the entire country would fall prey to the countries around it like china who could expand with minimal effort if they so wished
and to rebuild after a war this bloody would take trillions of $ because not only would the winning side have to establish a goverment, but during it, it would also have to provide for the citizens because if they DON'T it could be labeled a war crime
NK doesn't have the tech to help it's people
in some parts it wouldn't be suprising to find they drink from dirty water
if say... USA invaded, stomped out the goverment, they would be left with a few million starving, helpless, defenceless and zelot citizens, and NO NEWS STATION on earth would ever make them forget that now, they have to establish order, import food, import medical supplies and deal with unrest
the idea of freeing NK is great, but it's just simply impractical and would cause more damage than it might help.
[QUOTE=Gamerman12;46201173]terror and panic
the point is we don't want ANY civilians dying, regardless if the good guys win.[/QUOTE]
I'm just asking how that's really gonna help NK in any way. They'd be bombed back to the stone age (not that that would be that many periods back for NK). Sure, the regime is irrational, but that would simply cut their chances of survival to basically nil.
Anyway, it's not gonna happen. The nukes are deterrence, and they're not even a needed deterrent. North Korea wouldn't attack because they're just gonna lose, no matter how many poor North Koreans they throw at the crossfire. South Korea isn't gonna attack because it's a waste of people and money. And even when they win, they lose - they'll have to care for the North Korean people, and that's gonna be so monumentally expensive it's not even funny. South Koreans are also less and less inclined to pay for that, not just because of the growing financial barrier, but because the people who actually got their family ripped apart in 1949-1953 are dead now. There aren't any incentives for South Korea to attack the North, really.
[QUOTE=Gamerman12;46201173]terror and panic
the point is we don't want ANY civilians dying, regardless if the good guys win.[/QUOTE]
That is unfortunately an unrealistic belief if you're going to war. Civilians will die, the objective in to minimize the number of civilians who die, because some of them dying is going to be unavoidable.
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