Lol Macron got more votes than Le Pen in the first round? She's completely fucked, as expected.
[QUOTE=LTJGPliskin;52141198]Okay but seriously what the fuck even is anarcho-communism, I'm pretty sure an anarchist government wouldn't be compatible with a communist economy.[/QUOTE]
Communism is workers ownership of the means of production and production is utilized for the needs of individuals over the profit. It's stateless, and moneyless. Communism comes with post-scarcity and is essentially what happens when technology and production radically change to the point where capitalism is obsolete.
Since Communism is "stateless" (Anarchists and Marxists have had constant debate on the definition of the state) Anarchists percieve the means of achieving communism is through a swift and total abolishment of the state apperatus through action of the masses. Society is siezed by workers councils and such. Marxists view the means to achieve socialism is to sieze the state apperatus and use it to create the conditions that will one day make the state obsolete (communism).
So essentially, Anarcho Communists believe in decentralized planned economies, production for need over profit and all the other stuff that comes with Communism, but no state to act for transition between capitalism and communism.
Can't see why people from FP are hyped over Macron. I'm not ready to give all my source code, along with all private credentials, passphrases and SSH keys to my government.
"Communism" in the anarchist sense often also means communalism rather than communist economics. Which means communal ownership of land and a society built up of federated communes rather than nations.
[QUOTE=GrizzlyBear;52141411]Lol Macron got more votes than Le Pen in the first round? She's completely fucked, as expected.[/QUOTE]
It's not over yet, she's in front now. There's a bit of distance down to Fillon, though, so Macron seems pretty safe.
Anyone who knows how many votes have been counted yet?
When are the final results expected to be released?
[QUOTE=ImUnstoppable;52141443]Communism is workers ownership of the means of production and production is utilized for the needs of individuals over the profit. It's stateless, and moneyless. Communism comes with post-scarcity and is essentially what happens when technology and production radically change to the point where capitalism is obsolete.
Since Communism is "stateless" (Anarchists and Marxists have had constant debate on the definition of the state) Anarchists percieve the means of achieving communism is through a swift and total abolishment of the state apperatus through action of the masses. Society is siezed by workers councils and such. Marxists view the means to achieve socialism is to sieze the state apperatus and use it to create the conditions that will one day make the state obsolete (communism).
So essentially, Anarcho Communists believe in decentralized planned economies, production for need over profit and all the other stuff that comes with Communism, but no state to act for transition between capitalism and communism.[/QUOTE]
Which in my honest opinion is nuts. The belief that an anarchistic society could somehow rebuild itself and quite naturally end up in a socialist.. state? It's certainly an interesting idea to ponder though.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;52141475]It's not over yet, she's in front now. There's a bit of distance down to Fillon, though, so Macron seems pretty safe.
Anyone who knows how many votes have been counted yet?[/QUOTE]
72%
Official results are here: [url]http://elections.interieur.gouv.fr/presidentielle-2017/FE.html[/url]
[QUOTE=RB33;52141529]72%
Official results are here: [url]http://elections.interieur.gouv.fr/presidentielle-2017/FE.html[/url][/QUOTE]
Seems like the field won't change much beyond Macron and Le Pen playing musical chairs until tomorrow morning, then.
[QUOTE=RIPBILLYMAYS;52141503]When are the final results expected to be released?[/QUOTE]
2nd turn is on may 7th, that's when the final results will be released.
Results of the 1st turn tho, IIRC it'll be wednesday.
I don't know anything about Macron but considering le Pen threatened to demolish Frances economy I hope she doesn't win
[QUOTE=NapyDaWise;52140210]There's no way Marine Le Pen can get elected in France, with the 2 turn system.[/QUOTE]
and Clinton was assured the White House in 2017 right up until the polls closed. Don't bet on sure things in this political climate.
[QUOTE=TestECull;52141668]and Clinton was assured the White House in 2017 right up until the polls closed. Don't bet on sure things in this political climate.[/QUOTE]
What's with people repeating this ad nauseum? The two situations aren't remotely comparable, and Clinton did win the popular vote anyway.
[QUOTE=TestECull;52141668]and Clinton was assured the White House in 2017 right up until the polls closed. Don't bet on sure things in this political climate.[/QUOTE]
Not the same election, nor the same country, not the same political climate. Le Pen won't do more than 30% in the second turn.
Also the looser of your election is in office, we don't do that over there :v:
[QUOTE=TestECull;52141668]and Clinton was assured the White House in 2017 right up until the polls closed. Don't bet on sure things in this political climate.[/QUOTE]
Clinton won the popular vote and had an electoral college to contend with. With France, popular vote reigns supreme. If it was Clinton V. Trump in France, Clinton would have won, so the situations aren't really comparable. People need to stop doing this whole, "BUT BREXIT AND TRUMP" thing without first thinking about the situation they are trying to apply it to.
[url]https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/le-pen-is-in-a-much-deeper-hole-than-trump-ever-was/[/url]
I don't like the trend of politics that seem to be becoming more common both Macron and La Pen have extremes that are concerning, with La Pen being bonkers and Macron being too far to the left.
[sp] This is my own opinion of course [/sp]
[QUOTE=Mabus;52141805]I don't like the trend of politics that seem to be becoming more common both Macron and La Pen have extremes that are concerning, with La Pen being bonkers and Macron being too far to the left.
[sp] This is my own opinion of course [/sp][/QUOTE]
How is Macron extreme? Haven't exactly followed this election very closely, but my impression is that he's basically a centrist.
Edit:
At the very least he's waaaaaaay closer to the center than Le Pen is, there are at least two major (perhaps not of voting share, but at least significance) candidates to the left of him as far as I can tell.
I honestly dont understand all that support to Macron and disrespect to Le Pen. I've thoroughly acquainted with Macron's program and i clearly can say that the best thing he could do is increase salaries. Other things like increasing military expenditure and police state or reducing the number of pupils in classes are totally unnecessary. Rising up economy sounds very indefinably. Reducing taxes on corporations revenues? Hell no its not good. Other program more like common words that people would like to hear. Nothing about how to deal with immigrants, like its not a problem at all. Like he's telling everyone "We'll raise economy, what else do we need to do?". Le pen promises to withdraw France from EU and Nato, but for some reason people only see this at bad side, talking shit like "brexit again" etc. She also got clear point on problem with migrants, as French people mostly got very tired of them living next by and swinging around their rights/stealing their job and money. The only plus to Macron is how he didn't got in any scandal during his tiny electoral program.
Summing up, Macron aint planning any clear changes and will keep France in the same stagnation which were with Hollande.
[QUOTE=DoorCloser;52141876]I honestly dont understand all that support to Macron and disrespect to Le Pen. I've thoroughly acquainted with Macron's program and i clearly can say that the best thing he could do is increase salaries. Other things like increasing military expenditure and police state or reducing the number of pupils in classes are totally unnecessary. Rising up economy sounds very indefinably. Reducing taxes on corporations revenues? Hell no its not good. Other program more like common words that people would like to hear. Nothing about how to deal with immigrants, like its not a problem at all. Like he's telling everyone "We'll raise economy, what else do we need to do?". Le pen promises to withdraw France from EU and Nato, but for some reason people only see this at bad side, talking shit like "brexit again" etc. She also got clear point on problem with migrants, as French people mostly got very tired of them living next by and swinging around their rights/stealing their job and money. The only plus to Macron is how he didn't got in any scandal during his tiny electoral program.
Summing up, Macron aint planning any clear changes and will keep France in the same stagnation which were with Hollande.[/QUOTE]
Because leaving the EU, and throwing out migrants are great economically stimulative policies
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;52141905]Because leaving the EU, and throwing out migrants are great economically stimulative policies[/QUOTE]
Atleast the first one will help France move from a european deadlock and the second one will help French people to get their jobs/lives back. I honestly would not be ok if the 20 members family of muslims living next to my house got paid in 10 more than i could possibly achieve with my career for the nearest years. But it appears that it needs more than a life for people to understand that mindset of muslims cant allow them to live next to the european people. And yes, i know that she was talking about all the migrants (not muslims exactly). And i absolutely agree with that, as France is for french people and the best everyone will be able to get is visitor/education visa.
[QUOTE=DoorCloser;52141973]Atleast the first one will help France move from a european deadlock and the second one will help French people to get their jobs/lives back. I honestly would not be ok if the 20 members family of muslims living next to my house got paid in 10 more than i could possibly achieve with my career for the nearest years. But it appears that it needs more than a life for people to understand that mindset of muslims cant allow them to live next to the european people. And yes, i know that she was talking about all the migrants (not muslims exactly). And i absolutely agree with that, as France is for french people and the best everyone will be able to get is visitor/education visa.[/QUOTE]
What european deadlock
Second one is a gross misunderstanding of what immigration does to an economy. They dont TAKE MAR JERBS. Immigration studies again and again conclude that on the whole immigrants benefit an economy. The negative side they do have is that they can displace low skill workers, but France already has mechanisms in place to deal with that (accessible higher ed.)
I'm not entirely sure what your polemic was supposed to convey. 10 workers of a family of 20 make more than you can? Muslims are literally incapable of living in the west without going all shooty shooty? lol
edit: also for those interested, someone made the jeb meme
[url]http://i.imgur.com/9sZp8Dx.png[/url]
[QUOTE=DoorCloser;52141876]Le pen promises to withdraw France from EU and Nato, but for some reason people only see this at bad side[/QUOTE]
The candidate for the party bankrolled by Moscow wants France to leave the EU and NATO hmmm I wonder why some people only see the bad in this :thinking:
[QUOTE=Mabus;52141805]I don't like the trend of politics that seem to be becoming more common both Macron and La Pen have extremes that are concerning, with La Pen being bonkers and Macron being too far to the left.
[sp] This is my own opinion of course [/sp][/QUOTE]
haha the idea of Macron being far left is pretty hilarious
at most he's, like, slightly left of center
Melanchon is a proper far left guy
The disrespect for Le Pen comes from her habit of resorting to fear in order to convince people, she's constantly at war against muslims (hijab, halal food, etc.) even though muslims are a minority in France. She just make populist measures to satisfy the xenophobics and those who wants a France like in the "good old days".
Also her party has neo-nazis amongst their members. Which I would prefer as far as possible from any kind of power.
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;52142000]
Second one is a gross misunderstanding of what immigration does to an economy. They dont TAKE MAR JERBS. Immigration studies again and again conclude that on the whole immigrants benefit an economy. The negative side they do have is that they can displace low skill workers, but France already has mechanisms in place to deal with that (accessible higher ed.)[/QUOTE]
You don't even need to look at immigration studies. A cursory glance at economies of respective countries around the world shows example after example that nations that embrace free trade and freedom of movement experience greater economic growth.
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;52142000]edit: also for those interested, someone made the jeb meme
[URL]http://i.imgur.com/9sZp8Dx.png[/URL][/QUOTE]
Lentement mais surement, on réussit
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;52142000]What european deadlock
Second one is a gross misunderstanding of what immigration does to an economy. They dont TAKE MAR JERBS. Immigration studies again and again conclude that on the whole immigrants benefit an economy. The negative side they do have is that they can displace low skill workers, but France already has mechanisms in place to deal with that (accessible higher ed.)
I'm not entirely sure what your polemic was supposed to convey. 10 workers of a family of 20 make more than you can? Muslims are literally incapable of living in the west without going all shooty shooty? lol
edit: also for those interested, someone made the jeb meme
[url]http://i.imgur.com/9sZp8Dx.png[/url][/QUOTE]
Immigration from middle-eastern countries to Denmark probably hasn't been good business since the 60-70's to be honest. There are huge employment issues, and in a country with a generous social safety net, that does impact the economy. Eventually, we'll see a benefit - but I don't think you can really make the broad statement that immigration in today's world is beneficial to a country, at least in the short-medium run. Western immigrants are a huge benefit to the economy, though.
[QUOTE=pedrus24;52142041]The disrespect for Le Pen comes from her habit of resorting to fear in order to convince people, she's constantly at war against muslims (hijab, halal food, etc.) even though muslims are a minority in France. She just make populist measures to satisfy the xenophobics and those who wants a France like the in "good old days".
Also her party has neo-nazis amongst their members. Which I would prefer as far as possible from any kind of power.[/QUOTE]
Without even getting into her anti-Muslim stance, she just seems to have bizarre ideas of governance in general. Trying to pull France from the global market with protectionist policies, leaving NATO to form an anti-Islamist military coalition with the United States and Russia. These are just bad ideas with little chance of viable followthrough.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;52142021]The candidate for the party bankrolled by Moscow wants France to leave the EU and NATO hmmm I wonder why some people only see the bad in this :thinking:[/QUOTE]
[img]https://facepunch.com/fp/flags/ru.png[/img] It's no wonder he doesn't see Le Pen as being a bad thing lol.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;52142065]leaving NATO to form an anti-Islamist military coalition with the United States and Russia[/QUOTE]
even weirder when NATO has already been bombing and fighting extreme Islamists for decades
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;52142078]even weirder when NATO has already been bombing and fighting extreme Islamists for decades[/QUOTE]
Well more precisely to what I meant by a lack of viability, both the Kremlin and Trump's administration have come out saying they have no plans to work with each other to combat ISIS or other groups in the region.
This means the argument for France to leave NATO is done out of ignorance at best, collusion with Russian interest at absolute worst. Either way, not great.
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