[QUOTE=James xX;52144992]Well, I should have probably gone into more detail: I voted remain optimistically, but after the vote actually went through, it made me realize that the EU can't work unles everyone is completely committed. As that's not possible, the EU ultimately can't become anything meaningful. If you take the 2 extremes: Devolve it into a purely trade based union, or evolve it into a fully fledged super state. It can't work unless it's one or the other, and right now it's in some limbo.[/QUOTE]
Nah we'll be grand without ya. Well, we in Ireland will probably suffer a bit, but sure, you're the ones who are fecked.
The EU has been something meaningful. It will continue to be meaningful.
[QUOTE=NapyDaWise;52144702]I think that for the first time of my life, I won't vote. I'm tired to vote against someone and not for an idea. Fuck the country however you want, I won't be a part of this.[/QUOTE]
Speaking as an american, believe me when I say you would [i]really, really [/i] prefer to live under the lesser of two evils
[QUOTE=EcksDee;52144999]This here is a testable claim that we can approach scientifically.
Please provide your academic scientific sources which say that "the EU can only work as a trade union or a super state and nothing else"[/QUOTE]
J. William Fulbright (May 1948), "A United States of Europe?", The Annals of the American Academy of Political and Social Science, Sage Publications, Inc. in association with the American Academy of Political and Social Science (257, Peace Settlements of World War II), pp. 151–156, JSTOR
Your turn.
[QUOTE=Jad Hinto;52143593]Well, seeing as I'm planning a trip;
Fuck it. :toxx: Le Pen wins, I'll take a picture of me giving the Eiffel Tower the finger in person. :toxx:
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Toxx Log: Perma if Le Pen wins. Escape clause: taking a picture of giving the finger to the Eiffel Tower in person" - Sgt Doom))[/highlight][/QUOTE]The pact has been signed.
[QUOTE=James xX;52145253]J. William Fulbright (May 1948), "A United States of Europe?", The Annals of the American Academy of Political and Social Science, Sage Publications, Inc. in association with the American Academy of Political and Social Science (257, Peace Settlements of World War II), pp. 151–156, JSTOR
Your turn.[/QUOTE]
Have you even read this or are you just copy pasting the wiki citation? Cause the only freely available source for this I can find is just page 151.
Right, step 1
"Fulbright earned a history degree from the University of Arkansas in 1925, where he became a member of the Sigma Chi fraternity. He was elected president of the student body and a star four-year player for the Razorback football team from 1921 to 1924.[3][4]
Fulbright later studied at Oxford University, where he was a Rhodes Scholar at Pembroke College, graduating in 1928. He received his law degree from The George Washington University Law School in 1934, was admitted to the bar in Washington, D.C. and became an attorney in the Antitrust Division of the U.S. Department of Justice."
History and law education, and though the book itself was released "in association with so and so political and social science academy" he wasn't exactly an authority on the subject.
Second, written in 1948, not exactly a contemporary piece by any account.
But what makes this the weakest citation is that it's got nothing to do with my question as far as I can see.
The closest reference to what I asked you to find in that one page is this
[t]http://i.imgur.com/pGG7Abt.png[/t]
Which doesn't apply since Estonia is "beginning to feel strong again and our national pride is gathering strength" and yet we haven't "neglected our security" since we're one of the few nations that reaches the 2% recommendation in NATO.
There's not even a hint of him talking about how "an European conglomeration could only work as either a trade bloc or a singular entity of states like the USA." And even if there was, the piece is so dated that it legit doesn't really apply. We've had the entire cold war since then, the berlin wall, the invention of the internet, etc etc etc.
[B]Edit[/B]
Not to toot my own horn or anything but here's a post I did on how brexit will affect the UK economy.
[url]https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1524335&p=50593219&viewfull=1#post50593219[/url]
Look at that, I quote/screenshot the actual citations themselves instead of saying "Bushtard et. al 2006, the hyper paper of ultra economics" and then post a link to the actual paper itself if its freely available.
Meanwhile you went "[I]Your turn[/I]" as if you did so much god damn work on finding that source. Literally just went to the United States of Europe wiki page and copy pasted the actual citation at the bottom, probably without actually reading it too.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/yueTBi0.png[/img]
[QUOTE=James xX;52145253]J. William Fulbright (May 1948), "A United States of Europe?", The Annals of the American Academy of Political and Social Science, Sage Publications, Inc. in association with the American Academy of Political and Social Science (257, Peace Settlements of World War II), pp. 151–156, JSTOR
Your turn.[/QUOTE]
I would like to think a paper from 1948 would have little or no relevance or insight into the EU.
[QUOTE=Sgt Doom;52145283]The pact has been signed.[/QUOTE]
[Img]http://i.imgur.com/RWXD8Fmh.jpg[/img]
Worst case scenario, see you all in July/August
[QUOTE=Judas;52145099]Speaking as an american, believe me when I say you would [i]really, really [/i] prefer to live under the lesser of two evils[/QUOTE]
I trust my country to actually revolt if Le Pen wins. She won't have 50% of the country behind her like Trump, only 22.
I refuse to vote for someone like Macron that can't even properly express what he want for the country. I mean, the joke I heard a lot during this election is that if Macron pass the 1st turn, he'll tell us about one of his policy as a reward. There was a poll that I can't seem to find right now, which showed that around 80% of the voters of each candidate voted for his/her program, while for Macron it was only around 23%.
The only way we can send a message is by not voting, as much as I don't like it. Also, it's not like he needs my vote to win, anyway.
I'm not even gonna ask why it is bad to have good relationship with Russia (Putin is an ex KGB agent or shit like this doesn't tell anything), as i completely forgot on which forum I'm typing and which propaganda rules there. Reading program and making 100% bet that everything gonna be implemented is too dumb even for you. I mean did Francois Hollande done everything he promised to do? Programs in the main are just a chatter, you gotta judge by deeds. Macron coming from nowhere, and while being economy minister pushing such a stupid economy reforms, he seems not the one who i would trust (just a clear talk, despite russian or other propaganda). Marine Le Pen got a well backpack of good intentions for France, such as helping small business and fermers. I dont know if anyone ever reads the both sides of whats going on or just listening to some tv shows where people make a random laugh of whats going on. I seem to be talking with sceptical people whose best arguments are coming from Jimmy Fallon's tonight show or something.
It seems obvious that results came to the point where everyone gonna vote for Macron, as alternative is Le Pen which is an absolute reverse of what Macron wants to do. He doesnt plan any cardinal changes and French people are seem to be very afraid of them (what they never did before). Im sure if Fillon would get pass the first round, everyone would vote for him as he's something more between Macron and Le Pen. Remembering French revolution 1792, the changes may happen and i dont know if today someone's gonna say that was bad. Changes always coming, and people need to deal with them. Globalization wont get people anywhere. I will regretfully watch on the day France choosed Macron and importing of USA's GMOs.
[QUOTE=NapyDaWise;52145594]I trust my country to actually revolt if Le Pen wins. She won't have 50% of the country behind her like Trump, only 22.
I refuse to vote for someone like Macron that can't even properly express what he want for the country. I mean, the joke I heard a lot during this election is that if Macron pass the 1st turn, he'll tell us about one of his policy as a reward. There was a poll that I can't seem to find right now, which showed that around 80% of the voters of each candidate voted for his/her program, while for Macron it was only around 23%.
The only way we can send a message is by not voting, as much as I don't like it. Also, it's not like he needs my vote to win, anyway.[/QUOTE]
Theres like 230 million citizens in the US who can vote.
Trump got 62,979,636 votes.
Thats 26% of [B]the voting population.[/B]
or around 20% of [B]the entire population[/B]
"The only way we can send a message is by not voting"
Legit stop saying this stuff, the best way to send a message is to get as close to 100% turnout as possible and [B]AS BIG A LOSS[/B] for racists like LePen and Trump as possible.
[QUOTE=EcksDee;52145632]Theres like 230 million citizens in the US who can vote.
Trump got 62,979,636 votes.
Thats 26% of [B]the voting population.[/B]
or around 20% of [B]the entire population[/B]
"The only way we can send a message is by not voting"
Legit stop saying this stuff, the best way to send a message is to get as close to 100% turnout as possible and [B]AS BIG A LOSS[/B] for racists like LePen and Trump as possible.[/QUOTE]
What makes you think Le Pen is racist? Withdrawing migrants and giving country back for it's people is racist?
[QUOTE=DoorCloser;52145670]What makes you think Le Pen is racist? Withdrawing migrants and [B]giving country back for it's people is racist?[/B][/QUOTE]
Yes. In fact that last part reeks of racism in this context.
Edit: I'll refer to this post below as it explains why we're reacting the way we are to your post. (thank you Vitisus)
[QUOTE=Vitisus;52145751]"Giving a country back to its people" requires it to have been taken by other people who are not the country's people, e.g. (and in this case suggested to be) migrants, thus leading to the the fairly simple statement "The country has been (taken/stolen) by migrants". Without thorough elaboration on that point, that is absolutely a reasonable thing to see as racist or racially motivated.[/QUOTE]
something happened to automerge rip
[QUOTE=DoorCloser;52145670]What makes you think Le Pen is racist? Withdrawing migrants and giving country back for it's people is racist?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;52145694]Yes. In fact that last part reeks of racism in this context.[/QUOTE]
Even if she actually isn't, she's hugely appealing to the racists and hardcore nationalists as one of her core voter bases. She supports Trump who is a racist, she supported Brexit which was, again, hugely popular with racists.
You're obviously not going to find a mainstream politician saying "arabs are bad, keep those muslim fucks out" but the message is clear.
[QUOTE=DoorCloser;52145670]What makes you think Le Pen is racist? Withdrawing migrants and giving country back for it's people is racist?[/QUOTE]
While she is for sure very Islamophobic*, it's hard to explicitly condemn her as racist since she is at least much smarter than her father.
Her party, FN though? Undoubtedly racist. Time and time again their members and politicians have openly espoused outright racist and fascist viewpoints, only getting kicked out when the media kick up a fuss.
Also I love your wording. "Giving country back for it's people." You revealed your power level for a second there
* some people include islamophobia as a racist ideology. I agree but it's a pain in the ass to argue it so I won't bother
"Giving a country back to its people" requires it to have been taken by other people who are not the country's people, e.g. (and in this case suggested to be) migrants, thus leading to the the fairly simple statement "The country has been (taken/stolen) by migrants". Without thorough elaboration on that point, that is absolutely a reasonable thing to see as racist or racially motivated.
Also, list of reasons why it's probably questionable to have strong ties with Russia:
- Institutionalized persecution of gay people, not to mention other facets of the LGBT community, to the point of Chechnya (a republic of Russia) effectively [url=https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/24/opinion/chechnyas-crackdown-on-gays.html]enacting a purge[/url]
- The annexation of Crimea by Russia back in 2014, which, incidentally, Le Pen defends as 'completely legitimate' and 'not illegal at all' to the objection and horror of many
- Elevation to presidency by a string of terrorist attacks in 1999 that we're still not entirely sure if they were a false flag by the FSB, successor to the KGB
- The string of probable assassinations of Putin's critics
[QUOTE=NapyDaWise;52145594]Also, it's not like he needs my vote to win, anyway.[/QUOTE]
good fucking god mate don't say that kind of shit in front of me and everyone else who lived through last year
As Le Pen said its a huge choise for French people now. Leave themselves for more 5 years in EU trap, or move forward with Le Pen. Globalization is unacceptable and cant be allowed to get in France.
you are headed bad, bad, horrible places if le pen wins
[QUOTE=DoorCloser;52145758]As Le Pen said its a huge choise for French people now. Leave themselves for more 5 years in EU trap, or move forward with Le Pen. Globalization is unacceptable and cant be allowed to get in France.[/QUOTE]
Globalization is happening wether you like it or not and the only way to escape it would be to go into full madagaskar-style isoltaion, and the EU is a way of making sure Europe adapts to it without losing all it's power to corporations.
[QUOTE=DoorCloser;52145758]As Le Pen said its a huge choise for French people now. Leave themselves for more 5 years in EU trap, or move forward with Le Pen. Globalization is unacceptable and cant be allowed to get in France.[/QUOTE]
It already is in France though? The EU also isn't a trap either lol. Globalization and Free Trade are pretty demonstrably good for an economy.
I like how people there throw immoral jokes about bat things going on and when it comes to talk about their future they see racist/fascist things in something thats not that at all! Hypocrites, just like the candidates you're standing for :)
[QUOTE=DoorCloser;52145758]As Le Pen said its a huge choise for French people now. Leave themselves for more 5 years in EU trap, or move forward with Le Pen. Globalization is unacceptable and cant be allowed to get in France.[/QUOTE]
Move forward into the middle ages.
[QUOTE=DoorCloser;52145791]I like how people there throw immoral jokes about bat things going on and when it comes to talk about their future they see racist/fascist things in something thats not that at all! Hypocrites, just like the candidates you're standing for :)[/QUOTE]
What hypocrisy tho lol
[QUOTE=EcksDee;52145792]Move forward into the middle ages.[/QUOTE]
Nah bruh. My country that is essentially a heroin-laden third world shithole outside of Moscow and St. Petersburg is a great model for the rest of the world.
[QUOTE=DoorCloser;52145791]I like how people there throw immoral jokes about bat things going on and when it comes to talk about their future they see racist/fascist things in something thats not that at all! Hypocrites, just like the candidates you're standing for :)[/QUOTE]
Can you atleast elaborate? This post contains no argument, no constructive criticism, no reasoning - you're literally just whining at this point.
The bad thing is that no matter how mistaken some of the people's thoughts may have been on something, propaganda will turn that out to make these people feel right about what they said earlier and keep telling the same until someone from the top says not to :disappoint:
[QUOTE=DoorCloser;52145810]The bad thing is that no matter how mistaken some of the people's thoughts may have been on something, propaganda will turn that out to make these people feel right about what they said earlier and keep telling the same until someone from the top says not to :disappoint:[/QUOTE]
You've posted a lot of opinions but no arguments
[QUOTE=DoorCloser;52145791]I like how people there throw immoral jokes about bat things going on and when it comes to talk about their future they see racist/fascist things in something thats not that at all! Hypocrites, just like the candidates you're standing for :)[/QUOTE]
A) Immigrants and migrants, illegal or legal, cause less crime than nationals [B]per capita[/B].
B) Stoking the fear and hate-boner against immigrants and migrants for "bringing crime, drugs, they're rapists" [B]is racist.[/B]
C) Leaving the EU would be objectively bad for France in every way, just like it is for the UK, as I and others have explained in depth several million times by now.
So yeah, Le Pen and the rest of this movement we're seeing recently is racist.
[QUOTE=DoorCloser;52145810]The bad thing is that no matter how mistaken some of the people's thoughts may have been on something, propaganda will turn that out to make these people feel right about what they said earlier and keep telling the same until someone from the top says not to :disappoint:[/QUOTE]
What propaganda? Are you talking about media in general? Is there some conspiracy going on that we don't know about? I understand that you feel the need to be very skeptic of the information you're given, considering the country you live in, but trust me; the entire world isn't as bad as Russia when it comes to propaganda.
[QUOTE=DoorCloser;52145758]As Le Pen said its a huge choise for French people now. Leave themselves for more 5 years in EU trap, or move forward with Le Pen. Globalization is unacceptable and cant be allowed to get in France.[/QUOTE]
France is a founding member lmao
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