[QUOTE]Altoona, Pennsylvania (CNN) -- Raymond Williams had just retired and was looking forward to traveling out west with his wife and spending time with his three grandchildren. But all those plans were shattered on April 6, 2009. As Williams, 64, went to get the mail on that spring day, he was gunned down by a man he'd never met.
His wife found his body.
"She said, you know 'Matt! Matt! Somebody shot Dad,'" recalled Williams' son, Matt. "It didn't register. I'm thinking, 'OK where is he now? Did they take him to the hospital? What hospital is he in?' And before I could even get another word out, she goes 'And he's dead.'"
A short time earlier, the same gunman had killed a teenager and wounded a woman at a store in the same working-class town of Altoona in central Pennsylvania.
The gunman, Nicholas Horner, was a husband, a father, and a veteran soldier who had been awarded multiple medals for his service in Iraq, including a combat action badge. Less than a year after returning from combat, Horner faced two first degree murder charges and the possibility of the death penalty.
"Not in a million years could I believe this was true because Nick would never, he could never hurt anyone," said Horner's mother, Karen. "I know Nick. Nick pulled the trigger, but that wasn't Nick."
After he returned from Iraq, Horner was a different person, his mother said. He barely left his home and, oftentimes, his wife would find him crying in the corner of the basement.
"He wasn't my little boy anymore," said Karen Horner. "You could see in his eyes, he had seen things and done things that probably none of us should ever see."
There was no question that Horner had committed the crime, and his attorney would not argue otherwise. The question was whether Horner was to blame.
"I argued to the jury in my opening (statement), I said I believe that the Iraq war came home that day," said defense attorney Tom Dickey.
Horner was one of the thousands of soldiers and veterans diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder after returning from fighting in Iraq or Afghanistan. In total the military says 90,000 currently serving troops who fought in those wars were diagnosed with PTSD. The number from the Veterans Administration is well over 200,000.
After a decade of combat, PTSD is being used as a criminal defense in the courtroom. Horner's case would test whether this combat-related illness could be accepted as a defense for murder.
[U]The crime
[/U]
The morning of the shootings, Horner dropped his kids off at school and went shopping with his wife. An argument ensued and he stormed away, armed with his .45-caliber handgun.
"He left Walmart and went to a bowling alley, where he sat all afternoon and drank several ... at least two pitchers of beer," said prosecutor Jackie Bernard.
Horner ordered food, talked to people and then walked over to the Subway sandwich shop intending to rob it, the prosecutor said.
Witnesses said Horner pounded on the shop's back door trying to get in. Evidence showed that Horner cut the electrical wires to the restaurant and even tried to shoot out the utility box.
Horner's lawyer argues he was in the middle of a PTSD episode and, to him, the Subway looked like a building in Iraq.
"Why do you in broad daylight enter from the rear and announce yourself by firing, you know, five or six shots?" Dickey said.
Once inside, Horner shot and killed Subway worker Scott Garlick, a teenager two months shy of graduating high school. He then shot and injured another worker, Michelle Petty, and stole about $130.
"And when he left, he walked over to Scott's body as he lay bleeding there and said to him: 'Sorry, I didn't wanna have to do that to you,'" said Bernard.
Several blocks away, Horner spotted Raymond Williams. Prosecutors argue he killed Williams for his car keys to try to get away.
During the trial Horner pleaded "diminished capacity" in an effort to persuade the jury to find him not guilty because of PTSD.
[U]PTSD on trial[/U]
The same year as the Altoona shootings, an Oregon jury found Iraq war veteran Jessie Bratcher guilty of murder but legally insane. So, instead of serving 25 years in a maximum security prison, Bratcher was provided treatment at the Oregon State Hospital. . A medical review board keeps track of his progress, and his attorney says he could be released as early as this month.
"I can honestly tell you that I would have never shot anybody if it hadn't been from PTSD," Bratcher said.
The ex-soldier got into a shoving match with a man who he believed raped his girlfriend. The argument ended with Bratcher unloading six hollow-point bullets into victim Jose Medina, killing him.
"I remember him threatening and pushing me, then having flashbacks of Iraq ... like seeing my buddy get killed in Iraq," Bratcher said.
From the moment he set foot in Iraq, Bratcher said he was bombarded by rockets and mortars. When he returned, he had trouble sleeping, couldn't hold a job, and was behaving unusually.
"I remember his sister said that once she looked out the window, and he was in the backyard working in the garden and he had his AK-47 slung over his shoulder," said Markku Sario, Bratcher's attorney. "He would live out in the woods for weeks at a time and set up parameters that he could defend."
Like the Horner case, there was no question that Bratcher killed the victim. Bratcher had turned himself in to authorities after the shooting.
"There was no defense to the action," said Sario. "The only defense that was possible was either good negotiation -- but we had a district attorney who wasn't interested in negotiating -- or some sort of mental defense."
A PTSD diagnosis has helped Iraq and Afghanistan veterans win acquittals of lesser crimes like robbery, and has reduced prison terms for others. But Bratcher's attorney said this case represents the first major criminal exoneration linked to PTSD since the Vietnam war. The defense had been used with some degree of success in the years following that war.
"It's not a defense that has been written up a lot. It hasn't been used a lot," said Sario.
But that's changing. Now defense attorneys are advertising their expertise to troops facing charges, with hooks like "Criminal Defense Lawyers for Veterans with PTSD."
One veterans' group, the National Veterans Foundation, is creating a manual on how to defend veterans with PTSD -- detailing tips like finding witnesses from the defendant's squad. Such a witness "can testify as to the horrific events that the defendant has gone through, because those are the things that sell to a jury," said Sario, who also is helping compile NVF's manual.
[U]Not an easy defense[/U]
Currently, the crime rates associated with Iraq or Afghanistan veterans diagnosed with PTSD are not tracked. But a 1988 study of Vietnam veterans could provide a glimpse into what is to come as more veterans return from these wars.
About 480,000, or just over 15%, of all Vietnam veterans included in a National Vietnam Veterans Readjustment Survey done about a decade after the war were diagnosed with PTSD. Of those diagnosed, about half had been arrested or jailed at least once (34% more than once) and 11.5% had been convicted of a felony, according to the survey.
Today, many in the criminal justice system are reporting an increase in cases involving war veterans suffering from PTSD.
"Presently I'm swamped with cases, and they've been increasing," said William Brown, a criminal justice professor at Western Oregon University who testifies as an expert witness. "We haven't begun to see the wave of all this."
With no concrete statistics available, Brown bases his forecast off of his own caseload and studies he's done at the Marion County jail system in Oregon. Marion County is one of the few places where those in jail are asked their veteran status.
"There's no structure available right now to even quantify it," he said.
But if a PTSD defense is used inappropriately, a judge and jury might see it as making an excuse and the defense may backfire.
"If you try to shoehorn it inappropriately, it is not received well," said Dr. Landy Sparr, director of the forensic psychiatry training program at Oregon Health & Science University.
Sparr, who has expertise in mental incapacity defenses, said PTSD is not an easy defense to use and cautions against the idea that there will be an epidemic of these cases.
"PTSD as an insanity defense in a murder case is hard to use because the person knows the difference between right and wrong," said Sparr. "They are not delusional or psychotic. For example, they do not believe they have killed a Martian instead of a human."
And Sparr adds that, depending on the state's law, the other issue may be whether or not the defendant could have controlled his or her behavior.
"In either case, you usually have to prove that the defendant was in the throes of a flashback when committing the crime," said Sparr.
The issue of PTSD as a defense for murder could come up when U.S. Army Staff Sgt. Robert Bales faces court martial for 17 counts of murder stemming from a a bloody massacre in Afghanistan. The March 11 rampage strained already tense U.S.-Afghan relations. Bales' attorney has indicated he intends to raise the issue of his client's mental state during the upcoming trial.
[U]The verdict
[/U]
Nick Horner's mother says that after he returned from Iraq, her talkative son didn't mumble more than a few words.
"Everything started to change ... the phone calls got less and less, the conversations got shorter," said Karen Horner. "He would have to have a weapon with him constantly to feel safe and secure. The doors were always locked in his home. He couldn't go into public without having panic attacks."
Nick Horner's lawyer argued he was confused by a mix of prescription drugs used to treat PTSD.
"That's what I've been trying to argue throughout, is that Nick is sick and not evil," said Dickey
The prosecutor, however, told jurors those drugs did not impair Horner's judgment.
"He had the ability to form the specific intent to kill. And he did have the intent to kill when he shot Scott and Mr. Williams," said Bernard.
In the end, three medical experts agreed with the prosecution and so did the jury. PTSD was not a sufficient excuse for murder in this case.
"I understand that Mr. Horner saw things in Iraq that were probably horrifying, but you know, so did we. One thing I know that he didn't see was the image of his father, you know, laying on the asphalt in a pool of blood like my mother saw," Matt Williams said.
Nick Horner was convicted of first-degree murder. The jury couldn't agree on the death penalty so he got life in prison.
"We all feel like we're doing a life sentence with Nick right now," said Karen Horner. "It's still a nightmare we can't wake up from."
[img]http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/120501043935-ptsd-murder-nick-horner-composite-story-body.jpg[/img]
The soldier
[img]http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/120501044951-ptsd-murder-scott-garlick-story-body.jpg[/img]
The victim[/QUOTE]
Source: [url]http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/05/justice/ptsd-murder-defense/index.html?hpt=hp_c1[/url]
PTSD is not a defense, no matter what circumstance.
Even if he was suffering from PTSD, that's still no reason to murder somebody.
Might as well plead insanity
I hope like hell my friend doesn't come back like this, it's honestly pretty sad to see what kind of effect serving can have on some people.
PTSD is a horrible thing to go through, but it doesn't justify violent crimes like these. This should not go unpunished, but if necessary he should plead insanity so he can at least get some help.
[QUOTE=tier56;35843228]Even if he was suffering from PTSD, that's still no reason to murder somebody.[/QUOTE]Obviously he couldn't control what was happening, he thought he was back in Iraq, he probably thought the kid he shot was some terrorist when he said to the body, "Sorry, I didn't wanna have to do that to you," as if he had no choice in the matter, as if he was back in Iraq and the only option was to shoot him, you have no idea what he was thinking at that moment.
[QUOTE=areolop;35843307]Might as well plead insanity[/QUOTE]
Wouldn't work unless he could prove that he didn't know what he was doing was wrong during the time of the murder. It's very hard to get off on insanity, even for legitimate nutters.
they might as well add assholism as a psychological condition
seriously we need to start drawing lines between what a personality trait is and what an actual disorder is
e: ugh wow did i actually post this
[QUOTE=Mon;35844625]they might as well add assholism as a psychological condition
seriously we need to start drawing lines between what a personality trait is and what an actual disorder is[/QUOTE]
wow
slow down
I've said some ignorant shit before but wow, if you don't know what PTSD is, you're beyond dumb.
Guys, we don't know the mental condition of this person to its fullest. Don't judge.
[QUOTE=Mon;35844625]they might as well add assholism as a psychological condition
seriously we need to start drawing lines between what a personality trait is and what an actual disorder is[/QUOTE]
He has a disorder, clearly the shit he's been through has screwed with him so a lot. While I don't agree that it justifies killing people, He needs psychological help.
Owning a gun in the United States should be a privilege, not a right. Why? Because there are far too many gun-owning Americans who are complete fucking psychopaths or sufferers of some other serious mental illness or religious fanatics. You don't give a four-year-old child a loaded gun, and some of these people have a mental capacity no higher.
[editline]6th May 2012[/editline]
It's like driving. Nobody has a RIGHT to a license. It's a privilege earned when the holder can demonstrate a capacity to handle a quarter-tonne self-propelled hunk of metal and glass in a safe and responsible manner.
[QUOTE=Mon;35844625]they might as well add assholism as a psychological condition
seriously we need to start drawing lines between what a personality trait is and what an actual disorder is[/QUOTE]
You've obviously never heard of psychology before. PTSD is a very common anxiety disorder with veterans, and anxiety disorders are the most common psychological disorders in the world. PTSD is very serious, and can cause incidents like this, albeit rarely. However, this seems to be a case where I, being a college student majoring in psychology, would definitely try for an insanity plea based on the grounds of PTSD. He deserves to get some therapy and help. Obviously this man would not have done this had it not been for the war. The signs he's been showing, like reclusive behavior and whatnot, are pretty clear incidicators that he is mentally disturbed. This article does not say anything about what may have caused the onset of the flashbacks, and I believe that could be a big part of it. Anything from any banging noise to someone popping out and scaring him could trigger a flashback. Honestly, being in situations that he has been in is unfathomable to regular civilians.
He shouldn't get off easy, but he shouldn't get the death penalty. With the symptoms he had been showing before the shooting, he definitely had no business carrying a gun on his person anymore, as well as being left alone in public. Things like this can happen, it was irresponsible of the family to let him run around public with a gun when he is clearly disturbed.
[QUOTE=archangel125;35844786]Owning a gun in the United States should be a privilege, not a right. Why? Because there are far too many gun-owning Americans who are complete fucking psychopaths or sufferers of some other serious mental illness or religious fanatics. You don't give a four-year-old child a loaded gun, and some of these people have a mental capacity no higher.
[editline]6th May 2012[/editline]
It's like driving. Nobody has a RIGHT to a license. It's a privilege earned when the holder can demonstrate a capacity to handle a quarter-tonne self-propelled hunk of metal and glass in a safe and responsible manner.[/QUOTE]
I think EVERY gun owner needs at least a basic psych test and requires a gun safety course.
[QUOTE=archangel125;35844786]Owning a gun in the United States should be a privilege, not a right. Why? Because there are far too many gun-owning Americans who are complete fucking psychopaths or sufferers of some other serious mental illness or religious fanatics. You don't give a four-year-old child a loaded gun, and some of these people have a mental capacity no higher.
[editline]6th May 2012[/editline]
It's like driving. Nobody has a RIGHT to a license. It's a privilege earned when the holder can demonstrate a capacity to handle a quarter-tonne self-propelled hunk of metal and glass in a safe and responsible manner.[/QUOTE]
I always thought there was a mandatory background check that included mental health.
[QUOTE=SpaceGhost;35844868]I think EVERY gun owner needs at least a basic psych test and requires a gun safety course.[/QUOTE]
Criminal background check, too. Any history of violence, including armed robberies, will preclude the possibility of ownership. Soldiers coming home from deployments overseas should arbitrarily have their weapon licenses suspended and their firearms held in storage until they can demonstrate mental soundness, or at the very least mental stability, to the satisfaction of a psychologist.
For those saying he should go with an insanity plea for help, isn't the point of the criminal justice system to help repair whatever mental damage has been done already.
Punitive measures may be 'just and fair,' but the fact of the matter is that it doesn't help anything or do anything to solve the problems, excepting cases where somebody is simply a pathological serial killer or whatnot and has no humanity to redeem.
You wage the wars you pay the price. If that means that a significant chunk of your populace is mentally imbalanced and able to run amok because you can't even offer them adequate help after sending them to foreign countries to slaughter people and get slaughtered themselves over blatant lies, profits and geo-strategic locations then I'm sorry but suck it.
[QUOTE=Groat;35847226]For those saying he should go with an insanity plea for help, isn't the point of the criminal justice system to help repair whatever mental damage has been done already.
Punitive measures may be 'just and fair,' but the fact of the matter is that it doesn't help anything or do anything to solve the problems, excepting cases where somebody is simply a pathological serial killer or whatnot and has no humanity to redeem.[/QUOTE]
If he truly is insane, then giving him the full force of the law won't help anything. You cant use the law as a deterrent for psychopaths, they just don't listen. Rehabilitation not only helps the convicted person, but furthers our understanding of criminal psychology and can be used to prevent tragedies like this.
edit: wait. I dont know which side you're taking....
If he really suffers from PTSD then he should in no way be [b]punished[/b]. He needs help, not punishment. I find it funny how prisons, which were meant to separate society from dangerous folks, is now considered a form of punishment because prison conditions are just that bad.
Usually in america harsh punishments for criminals are supported.
This man is obviously a whole different case because he was traumatised by the experiences he got while killing brown people.
[QUOTE=Falchion;35849221]Usually in america harsh punishments for criminals are supported.
This man is obviously a whole different case because he was traumatised by the experiences he got while killing brown people.[/QUOTE]
These supporters are no better than criminals.
[QUOTE=prooboo;35849098]If he truly is insane, then giving him the full force of the law won't help anything. You cant use the law as a deterrent for psychopaths, they just don't listen. Rehabilitation not only helps the convicted person, but furthers our understanding of criminal psychology and can be used to prevent tragedies like this.
edit: wait. I dont know which side you're taking....[/QUOTE]
The side that punitive criminal justice measures are wholly useless unless it's on a serial killer or somebody with no regard for humanity at all.
[QUOTE=Isuzu;35847310]You wage the wars you pay the price. If that means that a significant chunk of your populace is mentally imbalanced and able to run amok because you can't even offer them adequate help after sending them to foreign countries to slaughter people and get slaughtered themselves over blatant lies, profits and geo-strategic locations then I'm sorry but suck it.[/QUOTE]
I'm a veteran and I agree with this post more than anything..
It's shocking how few people understand that PTSD is a [I]serious[/I] mental disorder. Suicides and violent crimes are extremely high with veterans because they can't get the help they need in dealing with their problems. It's like nobody understands or cares about the troubles that our country's veterans face upon rejoining civilian life.
My dad founded a veteran's charity organization in order to reach out to Post-9/11 veterans, and the families of veterans. A few months ago he was in Richmond, Virginia, having conferences with the local government in order to attempt to establish a resource village for vets. He was walking the city in the very early morning when this drunk man stumbled up to him and grabbed his arm. Dad was wearing a shirt with the foundation name and logo on it, and the drunk man asked him, "do you help veterans? My son just got back from Iraq, and he's going to kill himself, and nobody will help him."
Dad brought the guy back to his hotel room and sat up with him all night, talking to him. The man said his son wasn't the same since coming back from the army. He was like a zombie; he was afraid to be touched and he couldn't talk to people anymore. Dad did everything he could for him: he emailed senators, governors, veteran organization heads and icons, media representatives, and all of the other business contacts he'd made during his time trying to establish the organization. He tried to make somebody actually help this man's son, but nobody did. There was nothing my dad could do, he was just one guy, and we'd already dumped every dime we had into establishing the foundation, but it should have been all the kid needed. It wouldn't have taken a miracle, just for one person with the means to get this kid into a program that could help him to pull a string, but nobody would step forward to help. Dad kept in touch with the family, and didn't give up in trying to find help for him, but a couple of weeks ago the kid committed suicide.
PTSD is not an excuse or a "defense." It is a serious mental illness. This guy who snapped, who gunned down innocent people in the street, was not a monster; he was just sick, and nobody gave him the help he needed. It's fuckin' appalling how poorly America treats its veterans. Once it's done with them, it throws them into the cold, and the people who can actually make a difference about it just don't care enough to do so. Because of it, innocent people die, and yet the world [I]still[/I] blames the symptoms instead of the problem itself.
Big Dumb American is right and I almost shed a mantear. Society disgusts me for craving blood instead of helping people in need. Same for government, if you send the poor guy into hell, at least help him get back on track when he returns(because some do not return).
Government should be liable for every soldier who snaps and kills himself/another, the soldier is innocent, government isn't for outright refusing to help someone who is willing to get help.
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