USA: 6 Million More Students With Bachelor’s Degrees Than Jobs Available for Them: One-third of thos
183 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Lord of Ears;48928732]yeah i know dude its pretty insane to think that someone can become a well rounded individual solely by utilizing something that contains almost the entire sum knowledge of humanity[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure someone who goes to a university for three or four years to study a field would come out of it significantly more rounded than someone who thought they could do the same in a library in three or four years.
University is about more than just the knowledge you get from lectures and seminars. Networking and actually getting a foot into industries has become a big part of it. Being able to actually talk with people at the top of their game in the field is immensely helpful. Taking part in various projects either for your degree or just for recognition that would be impossible to access due to lack of connections otherwise, etc.
It's fucking asinine to say "lmao education r free go 2 libreri and red". That isn't how education works. Sure you might have a wealth of knowledge from reading god knows how many books, but would you understand the exact applications of that knowledge? Know best who to talk to and how to sell yourself to get a job?
Just from two years at university I changed drastically from a near shut-in to a relatively outgoing person. I was much more comfortable at parties and actually hanging around with friends of friends that I didn't know than I had ever been in my life. I discovered that if needs be I could probably go into teaching comp sci as everyone who ever needed help and asked me seemed to think I was excellent an explaining things. I would have never progressed in those ways if I took the retarded approach of "i'll read books lol, that's how I smarter".
Also everyone is forgetting the real reason why anybody even cares about bachelor degrees in the first place.
It shows you can accomplish a long term goal that almost everyone in your field you are pursuing can relate with. In a way it is the first step in building trust between you and an employer: if you are hiring for someone, knowing that the other person has a degree makes it so you know that both of you have this immediately relatable challenge that both of you accomplished.
You could be the most self-driven person on earth and become an expert at using libraries/internet to learn your trade, but chances are the guy who is hiring you won't understand that or won't trust that you did it right.
The only thing that makes that approach really work is if you can use your knowledge to get hired in your field thanks to a friend (AKA: your work experience becomes this proof), or if you are pursuing a creative field. Creative fields are nice in that your portfolio trumps all. If you spent 4 years studying hard on your own time and produced a great portfolio because of that, I guarantee you'll get a job over a guy who went to art school and had the bare minimum art school portfolio. Because for creative fields, portfolio is DIRECT proof of your skills and experience.
[QUOTE=Taepodong-2;48909647]I'm probably just going to end up going to teach English in some foreign country because shit looks just as bleak in Canada too.[/QUOTE]
I hear ya, and the schools don't help it with the whole "You need to go to University. Here's how you apply for University" push that they give high school seniors these days.
[QUOTE=KorJax;48930424]Also everyone is forgetting the real reason why anybody even cares about bachelor degrees in the first place.
It shows you can accomplish a long term goal that almost everyone in your field you are pursuing can relate with. In a way it is the first step in building trust between you and an employer: if you are hiring for someone, knowing that the other person has a degree makes it so you know that both of you have this immediately relatable challenge that both of you accomplished.
You could be the most self-driven person on earth and become an expert at using libraries/internet to learn your trade, but chances are the guy who is hiring you won't understand that or won't trust that you did it right.
The only thing that makes that approach really work is if you can use your knowledge to get hired in your field thanks to a friend (AKA: your work experience becomes this proof), or if you are pursuing a creative field. Creative fields are nice in that your portfolio trumps all. If you spent 4 years studying hard on your own time and produced a great portfolio because of that, I guarantee you'll get a job over a guy who went to art school and had the bare minimum art school portfolio. Because for creative fields, portfolio is DIRECT proof of your skills and experience.[/QUOTE]
Finally someone said it in few words
Its amazing here how naive my school mates are.
Only 4 of us got the CAE C1 level degree and the rest haven't even got the FCE. We're talking about a Cambridge certificate that lasts forever unlike say, Bulats, or IELTS.
And they say "It doesnt matter to your employer, he will just test you orally and call it a day" Thing is the poor sobs haven't got an idea how the HR recruitment process work.
You aren't going to call in everyone who applies.
You are going to filter through CV's and see the most potential candidate.
If you got to choose between 2 cv's, them being equal but only once difference:
-one says: Fluid english level
-the other one says: C1 Cambridge CAE (with certificate photocopied)
Who are you going to call for an interview?
Plus hexpunk is totally right. You should by all means try to assist so seminars, talks, interviews in your UNI because they expand your potential network and someone who speaks the speak, so as to say, can easily be more hired than another guy who hasn't got an idea of what the difference between a stock and a bond is.
You gotta walk the walk, and speak the speak.
[QUOTE=OvB;48920165]Also if you don't acknowledge that people born in a western nation have it better off than a child born in a war torn, famine ridden, disease ridden, 3rd world nation where clean water isn't available, you're born with AIDs, and food is not available, you're an asshole. Not even America, I mean all modern western nations.
If you honestly believe that being born in the west isn't a fucking incredible leg-up, you're ignorant of what a good majority of the world faces on a daily basis.[/QUOTE]
Everything is relative. You have a higher chance of living a happier life in the west on average, based on median incomes and whatnot. But that doesn't mean that first world problems are not important, or that a seizable part of the first world society doesn't live miserable lifes. The fear of starving to death or being shot at is replaced by the prospect of potential homelessness, loneliness, overwork, mental stress/ilness, indebtedness, injustice, inequity, all things that can break people just as much as food depravation does...
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uLL418S1GQ[/media]
[QUOTE=Punchy;48928539]As my dad always tells me, most of the time a degree doesn't mean you're so good at a particular skill they'll need you, having a degree is just proof you've got commitment and can finish what you need to[/QUOTE]
that is exactly what higher education is, it shows you have the skills to learn, adapt, criticize, think for yourself, evaluate, problem solve (in time constraints usually), work under stress (getting stressed is part of a higher education program), improve your reliability (working efficient outside of the workspace) all of these revolving around a certain subject in education. You should learn a lot more skills than just more knowledge on your core subject
[QUOTE=hexpunK;48930232]University is about more than just the knowledge you get from lectures and seminars. Networking and actually getting a foot into industries has become a big part of it. Being able to actually talk with people at the top of their game in the field is immensely helpful. Taking part in various projects either for your degree or just for recognition that would be impossible to access due to lack of connections otherwise, etc.[/QUOTE]
you're right on this point, skipping hard education has consequences in the lack of hands-on experience it provides, but hey, beats $20,000+ in debt, huh? i never once said that the internet is the end-all be-all counter to higher education, but college is nowhere near as necessary as work culture would have society currently believe
also, never mention networking, it reeks of nepotism (but then again, everything does these days)
[quote]It's fucking asinine to say "lmao education r free go 2 libreri and red". That isn't how education works. Sure you might have a wealth of knowledge from reading god knows how many books, but would you understand the exact applications of that knowledge?[/quote]
actually that's exactly how education works
i've already made it clear that hands-on experience is important in my previous point, and you've been severely misled if you think organized education is the sole way to get hands-on experience in any given subject that necessitates it
(also those are some slick purposely misspelled words there slugger you really zinger'd me on that one there bub you should do stand up or something you fucking comedian i bet you'd absolutely destroy hecklers)
[quote]Know best who to talk to and how to sell yourself to get a job?[/quote]
the sheer fact that you think one of the benefits of higher education is learning how to "sell yourself" (ugh) is proof enough that you're too far gone
the sheer fact that you think it's necessary to """"sell yourself to get a job"""" in the first place is actually pretty sickening, too
it's the 21st goddamn century, we shouldn't have to be bullshitting and lying through our teeth and "playing the game" just to get a fucking living wage
[quote]Just from two years at university I changed drastically from a near shut-in to a relatively outgoing person. I was much more comfortable at parties and actually hanging around with friends of friends that I didn't know than I had ever been in my life. I discovered that if needs be I could probably go into teaching comp sci as everyone who ever needed help and asked me seemed to think I was excellent an explaining things. I would have never progressed in those ways if I took the retarded approach of "i'll read books lol, that's how I smarter".[/quote]
i understand you hold higher education in such a high regard due to your belief that it destroyed your autismal ways (it didn't), but the fact is, literally any consistent and sufficiently populated social situation would do the exact same damn thing, the only difference is that you payed tens of thousands of dollars a year for this particular consistent social situation
Look at this guy thinking that knowing how to sell yourself is a bad thing. Enjoy your lack of choice employment.
look at this guy who has his living made for him by the military instead of the civilian job market
[editline]18th October 2015[/editline]
how much did you have to sell yourself in bct big guy
The unfortunate fact is that you're at a severe disadvantage if you don't have a degree these days. The widespread ubiquity of them only exacerbate the point further. From everyone I've ever worked for, employers won't take you seriously if you don't have a degree. Unless, if you are the one in a million who can make their own business from scratch and become a millionaire, I found my degree to be worth my salary.
[QUOTE=Lord of Ears;48933247]look at this guy who has his living made for him by the military instead of the civilian job market
[editline]18th October 2015[/editline]
how much did you have to sell yourself in bct big guy[/QUOTE]
It sucks you have to sell yourself, but you do. that's just a reality, it's a really shitty one.
Most jobs you're going to have to do so in some way or another, or be connected through friends or family. That's the world.
[QUOTE=Lord of Ears;48932694]you're right on this point, skipping hard education has consequences in the lack of hands-on experience it provides, but hey, beats $20,000+ in debt, huh? i never once said that the internet is the end-all be-all counter to higher education, but college is nowhere near as necessary as work culture would have society currently believe
also, never mention networking, it reeks of nepotism (but then again, everything does these days)[/QUOTE]
Christ do you have a chip and a half on your shoulder, calm the fuck down. Just because you're stuck in a service job with shit pay isn't a reason to get pissed at those of us who aren't right now. Get pissed at the system.
I wasn't singling you out or anything with the "hurr durr liburries" stuff, there's just an absurd number of people online who do genuinely believe such a ridiculous thing. And you're right, there is a strange over-expectation that every new applicant with have the hottest new degrees out there. It's pretty silly. But that doesn't mean going to university is pointless or "not worth" the debt.
(And yes, the world runs on nepotism I'm afraid. It always has and always will because of how humans work, we trust those we know more than those we don't)
[QUOTE]actually that's exactly how education works
i've already made it clear that hands-on experience is important in my previous point, and you've been severely misled if you think organized education is the sole way to get hands-on experience in any given subject that necessitates it
(also those are some slick purposely misspelled words there slugger you really zinger'd me on that one there bub you should do stand up or something you fucking comedian i bet you'd absolutely destroy hecklers)[/QUOTE]
Glad to know someone appreciates my sicknasty posting. I've been working on that one for months tbh.
Formal education isn't the only way to get hands on experience and I never implied such a thing. You could go to a school to learn to weld, but actually going to a workshop and practising would not only teach you better for that particular skill, it would likely also land you a job at said workshop if you're not incompetent as fuck.
Apprenticeships are a awesome alternative if you're going into a trade or skills based field. Service jobs, mechanics, electricians, plumbers, etc. don't tend to learn their skills at further education because there's no academic point to those things.
[QUOTE]the sheer fact that you think one of the benefits of higher education is learning how to "sell yourself" (ugh) is proof enough that you're too far gone
the sheer fact that you think it's necessary to """"sell yourself to get a job"""" in the first place is actually pretty sickening, too
it's the 21st goddamn century, we shouldn't have to be bullshitting and lying through our teeth and "playing the game" just to get a fucking living wage[/QUOTE]
Selling yourself isn't about lying guy. I've seen people who lie try to interview and it's just embarrassing. The kind of jobs you're aiming for when you have a degree, qualified or not, are usually interviewed by someone who knows their shit to some extent and they WILL ask you specific questions to catch you out. Especially with such a crowded job market.
"Selling yourself" as I mean and was taught is more about recognising the things you've done that are actually impressive in relevance to the role, or working out the best fields to aim for and the more useful guys to talk to to try and get into that field. Knowing interesting or bigger names is super useful even if you aren't applying to work for them.
[QUOTE]i understand you hold higher education in such a high regard due to your belief that it destroyed your autismal ways (it didn't), but the fact is, literally any consistent and sufficiently populated social situation would do the exact same damn thing, the only difference is that you payed tens of thousands of dollars a year for this particular consistent social situation[/QUOTE]
I didn't really pay tens of thousands of dollars a year because the UK education system wasn't a total joke when I signed on. Everyone after me however? Yeah they got the luxury of an extra £6k a year for tuition and hiked up accommodation pricing.
I came out of it with connections to places I would have never considered or even realised existed. I have contacts with a couple of pretty neat research groups within the university, a research facility in the city (and a possible place there if I want back in to research, but a year or two in industry seemed like a good start), various coursemates that could work as springboards into the IT sector of their city, access to various grants and shit if I wanted to start a business with backing from the university, access to whatever the fuck the alumni association provides (not 100% sure on that one, but it's alot of networking stuff again as well as other things I probably will never use).
Yeah. I'm pretty sure going to uni did more for me that sitting in a library and applying for jobs in my shithole home town would have done. I would instead be stuck in a factory of some sort, or doing menial IT work for average at best pay with a rapidly diminishing pool of friends as many of my hometown bros and hoes have been escaping as of recent. Uni actually gave me a reason to go out and do things, expand and explore just a bit more than the previous day.
tl;dr: Yes, there are alternatives to university education. Yes they can be effective means to learning skills for a job. But they are in no way a replacement for learning academic heavy subjects at an actual institution designed and focused on just that. In the UK and EU at least, it's totally worth the debt if you can land a job after, that's literally the only hard part and that isn't even the fault of the education but the shitass economy.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48933304]It sucks you have to sell yourself, but you do. that's just a reality, it's a really shitty one.
Most jobs you're going to have to do so in some way or another, or be connected through friends or family. That's the world.[/QUOTE]
i understand that's the way it is right now, but everyone has such a consistently defeatist attitude about it
there are alternatives to the system we have in place right now (syndicalism, mutualism, etc)
[QUOTE=Lord of Ears;48933247]look at this guy who has his living made for him by the military instead of the civilian job market
[editline]18th October 2015[/editline]
how much did you have to sell yourself in bct big guy[/QUOTE]
I see you havent tried to walk into an interview and not say anything? I mean really, you're the one who should be asking the questions, right? They should actively try to get you to sign with them, not the the other way around.
You lack experience in the job market if you think that you cant/shouldnt sell yourself to be an interviewer.
[QUOTE=Code3Response;48933459]I see you havent tried to walk into an interview and not say anything? I mean really, you're the one who should be asking the questions, right? They should actively try to get you to sign with them, not the the other way around.
You lack experience in the job market if you think that you cant/shouldnt sell yourself to be an interviewer.[/QUOTE]
actually what i'm trying to say is that the grand We, humanity, have more than ample means to provide plenty in the classical sense for almost every human being in the world, but because of simple greed wealth is still concentrated in the top 20% of society, and people here are too fucking stupid or just don't care enough to realize that everyone could live a life of leisure if we redistributed the wealth more-or-less equally* and the pure fact that everyone takes cutthroat competitive job hunting and the "sell yourself" ethos as some sort of written-in-stone law just goes to show that nobody really has the drive to improve economic conditions worldwide, it's just either the common folk being too small and totally powerless in comparison to the big lobbies or "fuck you i got mine" everywhere you go
*i'm not a commie
[editline]18th October 2015[/editline]
but thx for putting words in my mouth mr policeman
Since the dawn of mankind we've been a nepotistic society.
We trust those we know more than those we don't.
Change that basic principle of human interaction and I'm in, but good luck.
It's not really defeatist to realize there's some fights you can't really do anything about.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48933615]Since the dawn of mankind we've been a nepotistic society.
We trust those we know more than those we don't.
Change that basic principle of human interaction and I'm in, but good luck.
It's not really defeatist to realize there's some fights you can't really do anything about.[/QUOTE]
with almost 8 billion humans alive on the planet right now, you can't say that nepotism is just a basic principle of mankind, when every single one of those individual humans that have heard of the term nepotism probably have their own opinions formed on it
it is literally the epitome of defeatism, to simply assume that nepotism will rule in the end for all time, and that nothing will ever change
you're losing the fight before it's even begun
[QUOTE=Lord of Ears;48933499]actually what i'm trying to say is that the grand We, humanity, have more than ample means to provide plenty in the classical sense for almost every human being in the world, but because of simple greed wealth is still concentrated in the top 20% of society, and people here are too fucking stupid or just don't care enough to realize that everyone could live a life of leisure if we redistributed the wealth more-or-less equally* and the pure fact that everyone takes cutthroat competitive job hunting and the "sell yourself" ethos as some sort of written-in-stone law just goes to show that nobody really has the drive to improve economic conditions worldwide, it's just either the common folk being too small and totally powerless in comparison to the big lobbies or "fuck you i got mine" everywhere you go[/QUOTE]
I dont even have a response to this word salad. Good luck I guess.
[QUOTE=Lord of Ears;48933247]look at this guy who has his living made for him by the military instead of the civilian job market
[editline]18th October 2015[/editline]
how much did you have to sell yourself in bct big guy[/QUOTE]
Haha I'm going to be set up for life brother. I knew the civilian job market was shit so I decided to do it the hard way, now the fruits of my labor will pay off. I have to sell myself on a daily basis in the Military. I have to do it to get the top promotion recommendations, during Sailor of the Year/Quarter boards, when applying for leadership positions. It's a really valuable skill that's actually got me quite far.
if you think that joining the military is the [I]hard way[/I] right now then you're severely misinformed
[QUOTE=Lord of Ears;48933712]if you think that joining the military is the [I]hard way[/I] right now then you're severely misinformed[/QUOTE]
Oh really? Do you think that you could be a combat medic?
yep
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("dumb one word reply" - Craptasket))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=Lord of Ears;48933731]yep[/QUOTE]
By all means then; why don't you? It's the easiest way to get a leg up after all.
What a dumb argument.
The military is not for everyone, nor is college or the usual job market. It varies person to person.
Don't treat either pathway as a set difficulty level for everyone as a whole.
[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;48933736]By all means then; why don't you? It's the easiest way to get a leg up after all.[/QUOTE]
because i don't want to?
[QUOTE=Lord of Ears;48933750]because i don't want to?[/QUOTE]
So get out there and go sell yourself then?
[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;48933758]So get out there and go sell yourself then?[/QUOTE]
where the fuck did i say that i don't sell myself
[editline]18th October 2015[/editline]
i've stated literally nothing during my entire time in this thread besides my utter disgust at the fact that humans are forced to compete for the fucking right to a living wage (ie you're forced to compete to not starve to death)
[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;48933758]So get out there and go sell yourself then?[/QUOTE]
Like a prostitute?
that's essentially what it boils down to
I guess this should have been said earlier but the "STEM shortage is a myth" is a myth
reason being that there's all kinds of stuff that fits under STEM, including the psychology
every time someone cites some statistic from the IEEE article or whatever, just remember that STEM means about as much as calling food organic, and that there is only a small list of in demand majors for undergrad and they all have the highest dropout rates
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