[QUOTE=Aman;43084901]how many posts are you gonna dedicate to your oh so witty satirical comments?
you are up to 4(!) now[/QUOTE]
Only till you stop hating poor people
[QUOTE=UziXxX;43084701]Asking for a slight pay raise isn't unreasonable.
Asking for $15 an hour is unreasonable.[/QUOTE]
It's called negotiation. They ask higher than what they want so the company will bring the number down to a reasonable level, generally that lower number is what the union is actually looking to get.
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43084881]So people are only allowed to live a comfortable and happy life if they meet your dumb and arbitrary standard of "earning" it?[/QUOTE]
It isn't my definition. Do things not have to be earned in the real world? Or did your parents hand you everything you wanted.
There are those of us who understand the way the world works: no one gives a fuck where you're from or what your mommy said you were. No one is going to hand things to you because it isn't fair if they don't.
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43084881]This is a weak excuse for treating poor people like shit and blaming them for their hardships. They said the same thing to oppressed workers when there were no labor laws and they worked 16 hour days.[/QUOTE]
I assume you're talking about the industrial revolution. Are you aware that was over 100 years ago?
$8.75-$9.25 would be fine for a new minimum wage, it definitely needs to be raised. However, expecting anywhere in the realm of $15 for unskilled labor is a pipe dream.
How the hell are they being mistreated? You guys acting like they are some Chinese child labor victims. They are getting minimumly paid for their minimum work.
[QUOTE=FinalHunter;43084940]Yeah and your well supported responses that do nothing but criticize my intelligence and beliefs really support what you stand for as well.[/QUOTE]
You've criticized the intelligence and ambition of anyone who isn't working a salaried job, I'm only doing the same to you. You've operated off the assumption that if someone works a fast food job hopes to make enough to live off, they are lazy entitled brats, which makes no sense at all.
[editline]5th December 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Gatsby;43084949]How the hell are they being mistreated? You guys acting like they are some Chinese child labor victims. They are getting minimumly paid for their minimum work.[/QUOTE]
Minimum wage has changed over the years, due to inflation, but not always matching inflation rates, so cost of living continues to increase while wages do not. Do you not see a problem with this?
[QUOTE=Aman;43083937]$15/h, yeah right. You work a menial labour monkey job what do you honestly expect?
[editline]5th December 2013[/editline]
Prices here and there differ you realize that right?[/QUOTE]
Try to live off a $7.5/hr wage and take the silver spoon out of your fucking mouth. Some people aren't fortunate enough to have the money to get an education right out of highschool and have to start somewhere. I'm lucky enough to be from a middle-class family and will soon be working on a secondary eduation, but I work at McDonald's and I've seen the struggle and heard the stories. How old are you?
[QUOTE=evilweazel;43084946]$8.75-$9.25 would be fine for a new minimum wage, it definitely needs to be raised. However, expecting anywhere in the realm of $15 for unskilled labor is a pipe dream.[/QUOTE]
Pretty much this, anybody here who thinks $15 minimum wage is a good idea have no understanding of basic economics.
[QUOTE=Gatsby;43084949]How the hell are they being mistreated? You guys acting like they are some Chinese child labor victims. They are getting minimumly paid for their minimum work.[/QUOTE]
The problem is many of them have no alternative and live pretty impoverished lives. Any decent society would ensure that the most minimum work should always pay someone enough to live comfortably.
[QUOTE=Lonestriper;43084819]See this is just shaming poor people for living as normal human beings and excluding the possibility that society could assist them. What is more immoral? society trapping poorer people into poverty because they had the audacity to have a child, whether intentional or not, or allowing people to lead a normal life even if it means using the wealth of everyone to support them?[/QUOTE]
I'm not shaming anybody. Why KNOWINGLY make a child go through that? Why cause another human being that pain?
And why is EVERY solution to redistribute wealth to bring the poor up? Why not spend that money to give them a free education into a trade so they can actually get a decent job and be prosperous? Trades aren't THAT complicated, and due to the over-abundance of college grads, people with trades are actually more valuable. So why is there no system like this in place? We are trapping poor people in place, but it's because we are just giving them money/food/housing without also giving them the tools to be able to get it on their own.
[QUOTE=FinalHunter;43084999]No I haven't, I've criticized the intelligence of anyone who isn't working a salaried job or working towards betting themselves and their financial position.[/QUOTE]
But if they are working in a fast food job and plan to move on to better things, do they still deserve shit wages?
[editline]5th December 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Gatsby;43084994]Pretty much this, anybody here who thinks $15 minimum wage is a good idea have no understanding of basic economics.[/QUOTE]
$15 is too much, it's a negotiating tactic, high ball, aim for middle ground. Nobody in this thread is declaring that they should be paid CEO wages, they are arguing for reasonable pay for people who aren't working in your 'real jobs'
[QUOTE=Trogdon;43084299]holy fuck, you are insensitive[/QUOTE]
It's beliefs like your's that subject kids to a poor upbringing, perpetuating poverty.
[QUOTE=FinalHunter;43084898]Yeah fuck that hard work stuff, the government should just hand them everything that ordinary citizens have to work for. Man I'm so fucking stupid, huh?[/QUOTE]
if you could just pull on your bootstraps really hard and get everything you want then i think everyone would kind of fucking do that. seriously the reaction in this thread alone is discouraging enough if you need monetary help, never mind all the people like you who think menial, shitty work somehow equals menial, shitty workers.
just think about it for a minute. "hard work" isn't going to give you any more money than anyone else, and even a slight promotion could easily result in you completely losing government support for only one or two more dollars per hour. that isn't going to change if you're a welfare-sucking scumbag or a heroically willful breadwinner - your only option in that kind of work is to stay low in the chain, or else you're gonna get even poorer than you are now.
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;43085004]I'm not shaming anybody. Why KNOWINGLY make a child go through that? Why cause another human being that pain?
And why is EVERY solution to redistribute wealth to bring the poor up? Why not spend that money to give them a free education into a trade so they can actually get a decent job and be prosperous? Trades aren't THAT complicated, and due to the over-abundance of college grads, people with trades are actually more valuable. So why is there no system like this in place? We are trapping poor people in place, but it's because we are just giving them money/food/housing without also giving them the tools to be able to get it on their own.[/QUOTE]
Do both, there is no reason you cannot support poorer people to live comfortably and offer education that will allow them to get better jobs. If you remove one or the other you are not being holistic with ensuring poverty is addressed.
[QUOTE=FinalHunter;43085061]Yes, because that's the kind of pay that job deserves. When I worked in retail and was about to go to college I didn't expect more money just because I had aspirations.
I got paid what I deserved to get paid, because I did something that almost anyone can.[/QUOTE]
How do you define what they deserve to get paid, because minimum wage typically increases over time as inflation and cost of living devalue the dollar. I'm assuming you have the answer to this because you seem really sure that there is a definite value that the livelihoods of the people cooking your food can be measured by.
I mean, poor people are going to have children just as anyone else is going to. It's a fact of life. Why punish them for an inevitability?
"Sir, the slaves are getting restless again."
"Start shooting them one-by-one until the rest shut up."
"Sir, the law clearly states that we can't just--"
"THEN I WILL BUY THE LAW"
[QUOTE=Cone;43085060]if you could just pull on your bootstraps really hard and get everything you want then i think everyone would kind of fucking do that. seriously the reaction in this thread alone is discouraging enough if you need monetary help, never mind all the people like you who think menial, shitty work somehow equals menial, shitty workers.[/QUOTE]
No one is suggesting that the workers that work low wage jobs are "shitty". The majority of them are decent people with big hearts. I say this from experience.
[QUOTE=Cone;43085060]just think about it for a minute. "hard work" isn't going to give you any more money than anyone else, and even a slight promotion could easily result in you completely losing government support for only one or two more dollars per hour. that isn't going to change if you're a welfare-sucking scumbag or a heroically willful breadwinner - your only option in that kind of work is to stay low in the chain, or else you're gonna get even poorer than you are now.[/QUOTE]
Actually, hard work will give you more money than everyone else.
If you work hard in school, you can get scholarships to go to college which you can use to get a degree, which you can use to get a decent job.
If you work hard at a regular job, you will get a promotion and or a pay increase. I worked a temporary job at a halloween store and started at $7.25 an hour, however I was good with customers and the boss liked the way I worked so he bumped me up to $8.00 an hour.
Thirdly, a one or two dollar an hour pay increase will give you more money.
Full time @ $7.25 / hr = $15,080 per year.
Full time @ $8.25 / hr = $17,160 per year.
Full time @ $9.25 / hr = $19,240 per year.
So why don't you take a minute to think about it? Government assistance or a pay raise. Pick one, because you can't have both.
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43084845]Because having children and having a family is a beautiful human thing that everyone has the right to have regardless of economic status. You're a fucked up person if you want to hold poor people responsible when it is the job of society and government to care for each other.[/QUOTE]
Ok, NOW I understand where you're coming from.....
If you think it's society and the government's job to care for you, then America is completely the wrong place for you. It is NOT the government's job to care for you. It's not MY job to care about you. It's YOUR job to make sure you are taken care of. It's called personal responsibility.
And you're right. Everyone does have the right to a family. I'm not disputing that. I'm saying you're a heartless human being if you, without having enough stability for yourself even, think it's ok to bring a child into this world....
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;43085169]Ok, NOW I understand where you're coming from.....
If you think it's society and the government's job to care for you, then America is completely the wrong place for you. It is NOT the government's job to care for you. It's not MY job to care about you. It's YOUR job to make sure you are taken care of. It's called personal responsibility.
And you're right. Everyone does have the right to a family. I'm not disputing that. I'm saying you're a heartless human being if you, without having enough stability for yourself even, think it's ok to bring a child into this world....[/QUOTE]
Government exists for the service of its people so saying the government has zero responsibility at all for the well-being of its population is kind of mistaken.
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;43085169]Ok, NOW I understand where you're coming from.....
If you think it's society and the government's job to care for you, then America is completely the wrong place for you. It is NOT the government's job to care for you. It's not MY job to care about you. It's YOUR job to make sure you are taken care of. It's called personal responsibility.
And you're right. Everyone does have the right to a family. I'm not disputing that. I'm saying you're a heartless human being if you, without having enough stability for yourself even, think it's ok to bring a child into this world....[/QUOTE]
Its the governments job to make sure the people have the means to take care of themselves, which it is currently failing to do
doubling the working classes pay would do wonders for the economy, imagine people liking their jobs and feeling safe enough to buy things. Imagine teachers not being poor, imagine people not starving in appalachia, imagine growth rather than decline.
[QUOTE=Lonestriper;43085070]Do both, there is no reason you cannot support poorer people to live comfortably and offer education that will allow them to get better jobs. If you remove one or the other you are not being holistic with ensuring poverty is addressed.[/QUOTE]
You are correct. But we can't sustain artificially supporting people into the middle class. What happens when they refuse to get the education? Can we stop giving them assistance then? At that point, they clearly don't WANT to provide for themselves. Can we cut them off then? There has to be give and take. It can't just be all take....
[QUOTE=UziXxX;43085125]No one is suggesting that the workers that work low wage jobs are "shitty". The majority of them are decent people with big hearts. I say this from experience.
Actually, hard work will give you more [I]opportunities to make[/I]money than everyone else.
If you [del][B]work hard[/B][/del] [I]get decent grades in school[/I], [B]you can [I]apply for[/I] scholarships[/B] to go to college which you can use to [B]get a degree, which you can use to get a decent job.[/B]
[I]Depends on the degree[/I]
If you work hard at a regular job, you will get a promotion and or a pay increase. I worked a temporary job at a halloween store and started at $7.25 an hour, however I was good with customers and the boss liked the way I worked so he bumped me up to $8.00 an hour.
Thirdly, a one or two dollar an hour pay increase will give you more money.
Full time @ $7.25 / hr = $15,080 per year.
Full time @ $8.25 / hr = $17,160 per year.
Full time @ $9.25 / hr = $19,240 per year.
So why don't you take a minute to think about it? [B]Government assistance or a pay raise[/B] [I]People living on government assistance often don't see the incentive to get a raise because they will have to put in time and effort to earn the same/less amount of money once they reach an income limit[/I]. Pick one, because you can't have both.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=DesolateGrun;43085225]doubling the working classes pay would do wonders for the economy, imagine people liking their jobs and feeling safe enough to buy things. Imagine teachers not being poor, imagine people not starving in appalachia, imagine growth rather than decline.[/QUOTE]
You are absolutely correct! I don't see why I didn't see this before! Everybody making twice as much! Now if we can make everything not increase double in cost, we would be just fine!
Really, educate yourself on inflation....
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;43085238]You are correct. But we can't sustain artificially supporting people into the middle class. What happens when they refuse to get the education? Can we stop giving them assistance then? At that point, they clearly don't WANT to provide for themselves. Can we cut them off then? There has to be give and take. It can't just be all take....[/QUOTE]
Youre worrying over a nonissue because studies of people receiving government assistance show that most of them do want to work. Humans are social creatures and we feel good when we positively contribute to the community
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;43085238]You are correct. But we can't sustain artificially supporting people into the middle class. What happens when they refuse to get the education? Can we stop giving them assistance then? At that point, they clearly don't WANT to provide for themselves. Can we cut them off then? There has to be give and take. It can't just be all take....[/QUOTE]
That's where a minimum wage which matched a living wage would be beneficial. Unskilled workers would be able to support themselves without being reliant on government welfare, and the money could be better spent on those who are underemployed, unemployed or unable to work.
e: massive ninja
[QUOTE=Bentham;43085179]Government exists for the service of its people so saying the government has zero responsibility at all for the well-being of its population is kind of mistaken.[/QUOTE]
The government should provide reasonable opportunities for people. People have different standards of living, some are fine with no work living off of government assistance while others are desperately trying to earn something. The issue arises when people try to attack one half of the whole problem.
[editline]5th December 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;43085275]You are absolutely correct! I don't see why I didn't see this before! Everybody making twice as much! Now if we can make everything not increase double in cost, we would be just fine!
Really, educate yourself on inflation....[/QUOTE]
Regardless of your argument, people don't care what you think and won't be open to your point of view if you are disrespectful to them. Cut the sarcasm.
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;43085275]You are absolutely correct! I don't see why I didn't see this before! Everybody making twice as much! Now if we can make everything not increase double in cost, we would be just fine!
Really, educate yourself on inflation....[/QUOTE]
Well, inflation is kind of the problem, isn't it? The cost of living (and tuition) has risen DRAMATICALLY faster than the minimum wage has, and that's the issue here. It used to be you could actually survive fairly comfortably on minimum wage (or close to it), but now you'd have to work 70-100 hours a week at minimum wage to achieve the same.
That's why people are pissed off. This has nothing to do with 'entitlement' as some here have suggested, but rather fairness. Obviously, $15 an hour is pushing it but that's just a negotiation point.
[QUOTE=RIPBILLYMAYS;43085257]
dumbs[/QUOTE]
Are you implying that you don't have to work hard to get good grades? It's confusing, because you've crossed out "work hard".
Wow. People have to put in time and effort to make a living without government assistance? What is the world coming to?!?!?!?!
[QUOTE=JeanLuc761;43085329]The cost of living (and tuition) has risen DRAMATICALLY faster than the minimum wage has, and that's the issue here.[/QUOTE]
Most of us here are agreeing with you, we aren't against raising the minimum wage. Despite $15 being a negotiating platform, it's the retarded arguments the come with said number that have some people's panties in a bunch.
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