[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43085279]Youre worrying over a nonissue because studies of people receiving government assistance show that most of them [B]do want to work.[/B] Humans are social creatures and we feel good when we positively contribute to the community[/QUOTE]
I don't refute this, but they probably don't want the jobs they are offered. They want the job that they want, which often isn't possible without higher education which I think is a whole separate issue.
[editline]5th December 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=UziXxX;43085330]Are you implying that you don't have to work hard to get good grades? It's confusing, because you've crossed out "work hard".
Wow. People have to put in time and effort to make a living without government assistance? What is the world coming to?!?!?!?![/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=RIPBILLYMAYS;43085309]
Regardless of your argument, people don't care what you think and won't be open to your point of view if you are disrespectful to them. Cut the sarcasm.[/QUOTE]
I crossed that out because grades don't necessarily reflect knowledge or work in the subject. People joke about history dates and facts being memorized just for the test and then it goes forgotten. Sometimes you'll have advanced classes that have ridiculous grading/testing procedures even though you are knowledgeable in the subject. I'm looking into colleges and scholarships right now and I don't qualify for some because my GPA is 3.75 even though I'm enrolled in 4 AP classes. Meanwhile, about 1/4 of my graduating class has a 4.0 because they took blowoff electives or took classes they were already experts on. Hard work is a personal reward, and sometimes its just that.
[QUOTE=FinalHunter;43084836]Liberals vs. People who believe in hard work thread.
You have no right to complain if you're working an unskilled labor job for minimum wage. That's the kind of money High School and College students should be making; for anybody else that's your own damn fault.
Where does this mysterious claim that college is too expensive come from? 95% of my college is paid for on academic merit. If you didn't work your very hardest to be successful in life then you haven't earned the right to complain about where you're at. People who whine about having kids to pay for are just bad parents to begin with - You're simply irresponsible as a person if you have unprotected sex or use a partially effective contraceptive and can't afford to raise a child.
If you didn't make wise financial decisions and work towards a job you can sustain yourself with, too bad. Companies and other people shouldn't have to spend their money to help drag them along, so I'll happily take boxes from the Facepunchers working unskilled labor jobs who think they're entitled to something special for their less than average amount of effort.[/QUOTE]
This, again.
Im pretty liberal myself but god damn theres a limit where liberalism reaches stupidity and contracting ideas. It's like half the people in this thread thinks moneys comes out of nowhere and others have to makeup/pay up for minimum wage workers.
Im not their damn mommy, the government isnt their god damn mommy and neither is anybody else.
[QUOTE=Gatsby;43085394]This, again.
Im pretty liberal myself but god damn theres a limit where liberalism reaches stupidity and contracting ideas. It's like half the people in this thread thinks moneys comes out of nowhere and others have to makeup/pay up for minimum wage workers.
Im not their damn mommy, [B]the government isnt their god damn mommy [/B]and neither is anybody else.[/QUOTE]
Since you're making this comparison, I want to know what you think of how Nordic countries run things; they place a huge emphasis on responsiblity and providing.
[URL="http://seattletimes.com/html/opinion/2021864017_livingwageconcolumn21xml.html"]or they could use automated burger making machines to replace the workers[/URL] [URL="http://singularityhub.com/2013/01/22/robot-serves-up-340-hamburgers-per-hour/"]that have an efficiency of 360 burgers per hour.[/URL]
lets face it wages for unskilled labor are shit, however striking to raise it will give a rise to autoburger factories just like how it did with the auto industry
[QUOTE=Lonestriper;43085288]That's where a minimum wage which matched a living wage would be beneficial. Unskilled workers would be able to support themselves without being reliant on government welfare, and the money could be better spent on those who are underemployed, unemployed or unable to work.
e: massive ninja[/QUOTE]
You don't seem to understand. One should NOT be "unskilled" for a long period of time. In fact, if you are under 35, you shouldn't be unskilled AT ALL.
Let's take my father as an example. Back in the 70's, he didn't qualify for scholarships, knew his parents couldn't pay for college due to being poor, and knew he had to do something. So instead of trying to work through college, he went get his welding certification and went right to work in a shipyard. After getting married and having 2 kids, he knew he needed to make more, so he would study at night after work, until he became a certified welding inspector. Got a new job at a company, then got an offer to work directly for ExxonMobil as a welding inspector. Our childhood wasn't full of silver spoons or anything like that, but we were comfortable. In fact, he still won't just give me or my sister anything we haven't earned. But the man will retire with a little more than a million dollars, all from saving, studying, but most importantly, hard work.
Don't tell me that these people don't choose to be "unskilled", because it is a choice. People nowadays ARE too entitled to see it.
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;43085486]You don't seem to understand. One should NOT be "unskilled" for a long period of time. In fact, if you are under 35, you shouldn't be unskilled AT ALL.
Let's take my father as an example. Back in the 70's, he didn't qualify for scholarships, knew his parents couldn't pay for college due to being poor, and knew he had to do something. So instead of trying to work through college, he went get his welding certification and went right to work in a shipyard. After getting married and having 2 kids, he knew he needed to make more, so he would study at night after work, until he became a certified welding inspector. Got a new job at a company, then got an offer to work directly for ExxonMobil as a welding inspector. Our childhood wasn't full of silver spoons or anything like that, but we were comfortable. In fact, he still won't just give me or my sister anything we haven't earned. But the man will retire with a little more than a million dollars, all from saving, studying, but most importantly, hard work.
Don't tell me that these people don't choose to be "unskilled", because it is a choice. People nowadays ARE too entitled to see it.[/QUOTE]
Your father is living proof that the American dream still exists, I'd say.
He started with almost nothing and worked his ass off to be where he is now, and will retire comfortably.
Proof that if you work hard enough and want something bad enough, you can go out and get it and make something of youself even if you're poor and don't have any education. There are people who are poor, and use how shitty being poor is as motivation to break their balls and move up in life, and then there are poor people who choose to stay at one job and let oppertunities pass them by.
I know because I'm the former. In the making at least. I was raised by a single mom working two jobs who raised 3 kids and paid a mortgage on less than $20,000 a year. It sucked having no heat in the winter and no A/C in the summer, holes in my shoes, ect. ect. Anything that I wanted that was extra, I had to get myself. My own car, nicer clothes, ect. I had to pay for myself.
Point is, I use this as motivation to make something of my self. Perhaps one day give children of my own a better childhood than I had.
[QUOTE=RIPBILLYMAYS;43085354] my GPA is 3.75 even though I'm enrolled in 4 AP classes. Meanwhile, about 1/4 of my graduating class has a 4.0 because they took blowoff electives or took classes they were already experts on.[/QUOTE]
Despite this, you'll still get something they won't: college credits, which means you'll graduate faster than they will (most likely). And while they'll more than likely struggle to adapt to college academics, you'll succeed where they'll fail because you're used to an increased work load and a lot of studying. I'd say the advantage more than makes up for not having a perfect GPA.
Have you guys every thought that poor people can be poor for reasons beyond their control? It is well and good to work hard to improve yourself, but you have to realise that with that said and done there are always going to be people who have been victims of circumstance.
[editline]6th December 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;43085486]You don't seem to understand. One should NOT be "unskilled" for a long period of time. In fact, if you are under 35, you shouldn't be unskilled AT ALL.
Don't tell me that these people don't choose to be "unskilled", because it is a choice. People nowadays ARE too entitled to see it.[/QUOTE]
Except there is always demand for unskilled work and there is only a certain amount of skilled work around. People have to pay the bills, and if they are unable to find work which suits their skill sets they have to rely on unskilled work. Why is it that we make it impossible to function on unskilled work then?
Also I think I'm preaching to the unconvertable since you seem very set on the idea that welfare and an increased minimum wage is people being over-entitled.
[QUOTE=Lonestriper;43085587]Also I think I'm preaching to the unconvertable.[/QUOTE]
Tell me about it.
[QUOTE=areolop;43084237]You should never be happy at where your at now if you know you have room to climb.[/QUOTE]
This is probably the worst piece of advice I have ever seen in my life. Just because you know that you have the opportunity for better things doesn't mean that you have to hate/dislike your job. Hell, I've been at my job for over five years and don't get paid much over minimum, but I still love going in every single day, supervising my employees with a smile on my face. Fortunately it gets me by, so of course I can't say I'm in the same position as some of these people who are in welfare. Just because there are higher paying jobs doesn't mean that I should be hating where I am now; that's a horrible way to live.
[editline]6th December 2013[/editline]
Actually, I probably misinterpreted your post areolop. I do agree that you should have a goal to work towards and do what you can to properly gain the skills and work mechanisms needed (I'm definitely not denying that). In this article's case, I agree that people working in unskilled labour jobs should know that they'll need to buck up and do so, and the way I've read your post is that [I]before that point[/I], where you're still working in an unskilled, minimum wage job, you seem to state that if you know for a fact that you can see yourself in the future being more successful, working a higher-paying job with certifications to back it up, that you should take whatever means necessary to get there, rather than sticking with flipping burgers - because hell, that's not doing much at all for you now, is it? You aren't even making enough for end's meet, especially so if you have children or a family to support.
I originally read your post as "Regardless of if you're working towards a better future, you should never be happy working minimum wage, because there are better opportunities out there", which disregards that you can still be happy working minimum wage and you have every right to work hard, well, and have a fun time doing it, instead of taking the viewpoint of "this does not lend well towards my future, I should seek a more fulfilling career opportunity". So, apologies.
I work fast food at $7.50/h and I think it's a perfectly reasonable amount to get paid. You perform menial tasks all day in a comfortable environment. There is no critical thinking involved and do the same work every day.
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;43085486]You don't seem to understand. One should NOT be "unskilled" for a long period of time. In fact, if you are under 35, you shouldn't be unskilled AT ALL.
Let's take my father as an example. Back in the 70's, he didn't qualify for scholarships, knew his parents couldn't pay for college due to being poor, and knew he had to do something. So instead of trying to work through college, he went get his welding certification and went right to work in a shipyard. After getting married and having 2 kids, he knew he needed to make more, so he would study at night after work, until he became a certified welding inspector. Got a new job at a company, then got an offer to work directly for ExxonMobil as a welding inspector. Our childhood wasn't full of silver spoons or anything like that, but we were comfortable. In fact, he still won't just give me or my sister anything we haven't earned. But the man will retire with a little more than a million dollars, all from saving, studying, but most importantly, hard work.
Don't tell me that these people don't choose to be "unskilled", because it is a choice. People nowadays ARE too entitled to see it.[/QUOTE]
Yeah after they are overdue on their rent they should take their $7.25 wage and finance a skill with it.
I firmly believe that this will accomplish nothing, except maybe getting a whole bunch of people replaced.
that isn't to say I don't agree with them, I just don't think that the mega-rich are going to all of a sudden start caring about their employees more than their money.
I believe that EVERY worker is making too little, pretty much everywhere in the world. Wages have not kept up with inflation. I figure the people who make the company everything they have are worth a little bit bigger piece of the pie.
can anyone quote statistics that show what hte average percent of a companies [I]profit[/I] is shared by the sum of their employees?
[QUOTE=W00tbeer1;43085892]I work fast food at $7.50/h and I think it's a perfectly reasonable amount to get paid. You perform menial tasks all day in a comfortable environment. There is no critical thinking involved and do the same work every day.[/QUOTE]
Not everyone is going to be lucky enough to be in the same position as you, financially.
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43085893]Yeah after they are overdue on their rent they should take their $7.25 wage and finance a skill with it.[/QUOTE]
Why don't you move to North Korea?
There is massive redistribution of wealth, the government controls just about everything, and there is absolutely 0 income inequality.
It honestly sounds like a place you'd love.
[QUOTE=UziXxX;43085957]Why don't you move to North Korea?
There is massive redistribution of wealth, the government controls just abuot everything, and there is absolutely 0 income inequality.
It honestly sounds like a place you'd love.[/QUOTE]
North Korea is anything [B] but[/B] socialist. You're going a little too far to comparing what CrazyGuns is talking about to an authoritarian bully in Asia.
[QUOTE=Ownederd;43085967]North Korea is anything [B] but[/B] socialist. You're going a little too far to comparing what CrazyGuns is talking about to an authoritarian bully in Asia.[/QUOTE]
It's fascist.
[QUOTE=UziXxX;43085994]It's fascist.[/QUOTE]
And how is CrazyGun's argument leaning towards a fascist system? That is a very, very loaded comparision.
[QUOTE=UziXxX;43085957]Why don't you move to North Korea?
There is massive redistribution of wealth, the government controls just abuot everything, and there is absolutely 0 income inequality.
It honestly sounds like a place you'd love.[/QUOTE]
a $15 minimum wage is SOCIALISM
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;43085486]
Don't tell me that these people don't choose to be "unskilled", because it is a choice. People nowadays ARE too entitled to see it.[/QUOTE]
why would someone choose to be unskilled how does that make sense
[editline]5th December 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=FinalHunter;43084836]If you didn't work your very hardest to be successful in life then you haven't earned the right to complain about where you're at. [/QUOTE]
i didnt know complaining was a right you needed to earn
[QUOTE=UziXxX;43085957]Why don't you move to North Korea?
[/QUOTE]
Saying that socialists want North Korea is like saying Libertarians want Somalia. Incredibly stupid.
I'd be fine with them having a living wage, honestly. They may not deserve to be paid all that much, and I certainly agree with that, but I think that everyone have a comfortable living wage is a great thing for a country. With people able to be stable on even the worst jobs, it allows for society to grow greatly by increasing the quality of life for the poor. This is one of the primary problems in our societies these days, the poor are in a poor spot (obviously), and this poor spot more often than not breeds more poor people, by giving them a society built around poverty and crime, people are more likely to get into poverty and crime. The special few who can get past their poor upbringing and much too rare, nobody should be expected to do so much just to live happy and make a stable and peaceful family free of criminals.
Cool, I need a part-time job.
I say part time because it'll only be an hour before I flip my shit due to the stupidity of people.
[QUOTE=Ownederd;43086005]And how is CrazyGun's argument leaning towards a fascist system? That is a very, very loaded comparision.[/QUOTE]
Because by the opinion he's expresses in this thread leads me to believe he's pro redistribution of wealth, and pro big government.
theres no redistribution of wealth in fascism you geek
Seeing as we're talking about living wage, everyone who lives in the US can check their respective counties living wage courtesy of MIT
[url]http://livingwage.mit.edu/[/url]
The average for California for a single person is $11.20, whereas minimum wage is $8
[QUOTE=thisispain;43086093]theres no redistribution of wealth in fascism you geek[/QUOTE]
The State, Big Business and Church generally might get a little something.
[QUOTE=Lonestriper;43086095]Seeing as we're talking about living wage, everyone who lives in the US can check their respective counties living wage courtesy of MIT
[url]http://livingwage.mit.edu/[/url]
The average for California for a single person is $11.20, whereas minimum wage is $8[/QUOTE]
Don't forget, though, that the cost of living in California is a lot higher than say, Virginia. So really in CA, $11.20 isn't all that much.
[QUOTE=UziXxX;43086084]Because by the opinion he's expresses in this thread leads me to believe he's pro redistribution of wealth, and pro big government.[/QUOTE]
Do you think the governments of countries like Denmark or Finland are fascist?
Virginia is an amazing 70c less, that's not [I]too[/I] much difference
[QUOTE=DesolateGrun;43085225]doubling the working classes pay would do wonders for the economy, imagine people liking their jobs and feeling safe enough to buy things. Imagine teachers not being poor, imagine people not starving in appalachia, imagine growth rather than decline.[/QUOTE]
Doubling their pay would be fine, if they were actually making something for the society that had real worth, but these people are producing a consumable good, not something that will contribute to raising the GDP. The working man used to be someone who made something, and therefore deserved a higher pay because what they were doing was actually productive to society. Fast food is not productive for the society an is actually damaging to our national health.
My brother in law started at the bottom, working a minimum wage job at a Lumber mill and living in a trailer park with my sister and their newborn son, he was not happy with the life he was providing for his new family and so he set out and got a better but more difficult job at a factory where he was part of the line building Great Dane semi trailers. He was still making not much more than $10-12 an hour. He then took courses from the employer in welding and became a certified welder making $20 an hour. He continued this progress to the point that the factory sponsored his schooling to get his associates degree to become an electrician. Now he's a boss position, works in a job where he can progress even higher and is now making $75,000 a year with his overtime. That is how you get out of poverty, through hard work and smart choices. You can't just artificially raise the value of the work of a fast food worker. The real way out of poverty is through real hard work and ambition. There is always a poor segment of the population, that is how a society works. Our poor here in the US is not like the poor elsewhere in the world.
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