• US Fast-Food Workers Unite In Protest
    249 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Aj;43092465]Flipping burgers isn't [B]skilled[/B] labour[/QUOTE] A person who works and provides a service should be able to feed themselves and enjoy a somewhat stable life.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;43095734]A person who works and provides a service should be able to feed themselves and enjoy a somewhat stable life.[/QUOTE] All people should be able to feed themselves and enjoy a somewhat stable life.
the problem with assuming that the minimum wage can just be increased is not knowing the underlying factors. fast food jobs were never designed to be living-wage jobs, they were designed to give business experience to move on to higher positions with higher pay. if the minimum wage rises, then yay, more pay for more people! but this puts a price floor on businesses. what's the big deal right? the problem is that the economy for the most part is consumer-based. businesses can't afford to drive up prices to pay their employees more, because consumers will just seek out alternatives or not buy fast food at all. so what's the alternative? businesses will be forced to lower hours for employees, maybe even lay their employees off. on the other side of the coin, unemployed people will hear about the raise in the minimum wage, jumping up and looking for a job to take advantage of the higher pay. in the end, jobs are lost and the unemployment rate rises significantly, which wouldn't be good for the economy at all. what should be done instead is the creation of more higher-paying jobs, so people working in fast food can move on to better jobs while students can fill in the gap by working at hiring fast food joints. the benefit? more jobs, less unemployment, and eventually a raise in the minimum wage as the business's need for more employees begin to meet the amount of workers searching for jobs. raising the minimum wage is simple, but it's more effective to create higher paying jobs than converting pre-existing jobs into higher paying ones. my two-cents, anyway.
I love how people are arguing that they should try to move up in life by finding new jobs. I'm sorry, but $930 a month with a child is not going to be anywhere near enough. If you work full time with a child, you aren't going to have enough time or energy to sit down, organize bills, and search for jobs that pay anywhere more than a dollar or two more. You have no time nor energy to develop the skills and certifications that nearly every job over $11/hr requires, plus having a resume with nothing but mcdonalds is going to be dismissed almost instantly. There's a very real reason they're called "dead end jobs," and that's because people who get stuck in them full-time are going absolutely nowhere. McDonald's doesn't want socioeconomic mobility, because it requires a workforce and a consumer base of poor people. Also, blaming people for having children is ridiculous. Accidents happen, and it's often difficult for people to get abortions (hey Texas!). I know several people who work at fast-food restaurants with children and are well aware that they've lost all opportunity to advance economically, so they just go to high-school parties and bum drugs to dull how shitty their lives are. [editline]6th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=supernoob96;43090033]Here's what I say, you work at a f**king McDonalds. If you want a better pay, get an education and get a job that actually deserves the pay that it gets.[/QUOTE] An education? Where? With what money? What time? It's not possible nor sustainable to live off of how much McDonalds pays you, even with government assistance and food stamps. Tossing on the thousands of dollars a year required for formal education, and you're dreaming. These workers aren't being stupid - they're literally unable to adequately pay all their bills, food, or other requirements. Education is far less important than eating and having a place to live.
All arguments aside, it's about to be over anyways. Have you guys been to walmart recently? see what the "minimum wage" earning cashiers were replaced with? Sure, it was a bumpy roll out at first, and you still need a few people, but a LOT of people have been replaced by machines, who don't need a wage at all. The technology and systems are already there, they just haven't had a good reason to implement them.... YET.....
[QUOTE=itzpanda;43094940]Not every place has an AC, just because you had a blast working at a dairy queen doesnt mean its the same for every franchise or every store. They're also not always clean, sometimes the health inspectors refuse to shut it down, or tell them to fix the things but never come back to check if they did the things[/QUOTE] This exactly - I have a friend who had a dead rat in the ceiling drip maggots into the grill. Health inspector told them to get rid of it and left. It's not slave labor as defined in the manufacturing business, but it is absolutely slave labor in the service business. Constant verbal/emotional abuse and stress, some of the poorest working conditions in the industry, and wages too low to have below-reasonable housing and budgeting expectations.
[QUOTE=UziXxX;43095628]I agree 100%. 99% of the people in this thread, myself included, support a raising of the minimum wage.[/QUOTE] then what the fuck are you doing [editline]6th December 2013[/editline] you basically argued that a minimum wage increase isn't required as if you work hard enough you'll get a raise
[QUOTE=x_xPwntx_x;43092396]Pardon my lack of economics knowledge, but wouldn't raising it to a level like $15/hr (And yeah, I know it's that high because it's a negotiation tactic, but still, theoretically speaking here.) just cause inflation all over the place? Or am I misunderstanding/missing some crucial detail here?[/QUOTE] The whole higher minimum wage causing rampant inflation is pretty bullshit. Its bullshit because there is relatively no money that flows into the lower class, who would benefit the most from a minimum wage increase. The vast, vast, vast majority of money is in the hands of big corporations, not poor people.
[QUOTE=Valnar;43097706]The whole higher minimum wage causing rampant inflation is pretty bullshit. Its bullshit because there is relatively no money that flows into the lower class, who would benefit the most from a minimum wage increase. The vast, vast, vast majority of money is in the hands of big corporations, not poor people.[/QUOTE] Not to mention they're far more likely to put the money back into the economy due to them being required to spend a higher amount of their total income to living.
[QUOTE=Zally13;43097312]then what the fuck are you doing [editline]6th December 2013[/editline] you basically argued that a minimum wage increase isn't required as if you work hard enough you'll get a raise[/QUOTE] I was arguing that $15/hr is way too high. Yes, I understand it's a negotiating platform, but what I was mostly responding to was the retarded arguments that come with that number like: "they're poor and don't have an education so we should pay them $15 because they deserve it" And "these people are treated like shitty slaves" and "life didn't turn out the way they wanted, cut them some slack!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" and "omg ceo of mcdonalds corp is so rich, he doesn't need all of that money!!!!11! spread the wealth around a little bit!" or "they didn't choose this job!" (even though they really did, because they filled out an application for it.)
[QUOTE=UziXxX;43101750]I was arguing that $15/hr is way too high. Yes, I understand it's a negotiating platform, but what I was mostly responding to was the retarded arguments that come with that number like: "they're poor and don't have an education so we should pay them $15 because they deserve it" And "these people are treated like shitty slaves" and "life didn't turn out the way they wanted, cut them some slack!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" and "omg ceo of mcdonalds corp is so rich, he doesn't need all of that money!!!!11! spread the wealth around a little bit!" or "they didn't choose this job!" (even though they really did, because they filled out an application for it.)[/QUOTE] Why exactly is $15/hr way too high?
[QUOTE=Valnar;43102336]Why exactly is $15/hr way too high?[/QUOTE] Because it's nearly double the current minimum wage and going that high as the new minimum will drastically affect employment opportunities. Also- as far as I can tell no one has mentioned this yet but... It is not uncommon for fast food places to hire 16 yr olds at minimum wage. This should give you an indication of how little skill, training, and ability are required.
Questions: -How do we know which min wage is the best one? -If it doesn't affect money supply-does not cause inflation, why not set it higher?
[QUOTE=H8Entitlement;43106789]Because it's nearly double the current minimum wage and going that high as the new minimum will drastically affect employment opportunities. Also- as far as I can tell no one has mentioned this yet but... It is not uncommon for fast food places to hire 16 yr olds at minimum wage. This should give you an indication of how little skill, training, and ability are required.[/QUOTE] You didn't actually answer my question. What are these drastic effect on employment opportunities and how will those effects actually happen?
[QUOTE=Valnar;43108002]You didn't actually answer my question. What are these drastic effect on employment opportunities and how will those effects actually happen?[/QUOTE] you can read what I posted above instead of picking and choosing arguments :v:
[QUOTE=Valnar;43108002]You didn't actually answer my question. What are these drastic effect on employment opportunities and how will those effects actually happen?[/QUOTE] I answered the only question you had in the one sentence post of yours (that I quoted in its entirety) But in answer to these questions... Any time you raise minimum wage you change basic business formulas for employers (who use minimum wage labor). A most basic example is labor cost+material cost+ overhead= item/service break even cost As you can see raising labor costs automatically raises the item/service break even cost. At that point most employers would look to reduce labor cost- and since they can't pay less they now have to hire less. The only reason people are used (in many situations) is that the more efficient mechanical replacement is more expensive. Increase labor cost much (and in this situation we are talking about a near doubling of wages) and automation saves money.
[QUOTE=lxmach1;43108205]you can read what I posted above instead of picking and choosing arguments :v:[/QUOTE] Ok [QUOTE=lxmach1;43096997]the problem with assuming that the minimum wage can just be increased is not knowing the underlying factors. fast food jobs were never designed to be living-wage jobs, they were designed to give business experience to move on to higher positions with higher pay. if the minimum wage rises, then yay, more pay for more people! but this puts a price floor on businesses. what's the big deal right? the problem is that the economy for the most part is consumer-based. businesses can't afford to drive up prices to pay their employees more, because consumers will just seek out alternatives or not buy fast food at all. so what's the alternative? businesses will be forced to lower hours for employees, maybe even lay their employees off. on the other side of the coin, unemployed people will hear about the raise in the minimum wage, jumping up and looking for a job to take advantage of the higher pay. in the end, jobs are lost and the unemployment rate rises significantly, which wouldn't be good for the economy at all. what should be done instead is the creation of more higher-paying jobs, so people working in fast food can move on to better jobs while students can fill in the gap by working at hiring fast food joints. the benefit? more jobs, less unemployment, and eventually a raise in the minimum wage as the business's need for more employees begin to meet the amount of workers searching for jobs. raising the minimum wage is simple, but it's more effective to create higher paying jobs than converting pre-existing jobs into higher paying ones. my two-cents, anyway.[/QUOTE] The issue with this argument is that a lot of these companies that hire for minimum wage have obscene profit margins. Mcdonalds has a gross profit margin of 40% [URL]http://ycharts.com/companies/MCD/gross_profit_margin[/URL] Walmart has a gross profit margin of 25% [URL]http://ycharts.com/companies/WMT/gross_profit_margin[/URL] These are just a couple of examples of the profit margins these types of companies make. Why should people have to suffer shit minimum wage jobs that make them have to work 2 jobs at around 60 hours a week when these companies make such profits? A higher minimum wage and better regulations on corporations would be extremely beneficial for people.
[QUOTE=Valnar;43109984]Ok The issue with this argument is that a lot of these companies that hire for minimum wage have obscene profit margins. Mcdonalds has a gross profit margin of 40% [URL]http://ycharts.com/companies/MCD/gross_profit_margin[/URL] Walmart has a gross profit margin of 25% [URL]http://ycharts.com/companies/WMT/gross_profit_margin[/URL] These are just a couple of examples of the profit margins these types of companies make. Why should people have to suffer shit minimum wage jobs that make them have to work 2 jobs at around 60 hours a week when these companies make such profits? A higher minimum wage and better regulations on corporations would be extremely beneficial for people.[/QUOTE] Using your own links I get.. A gross profit margin is the difference between sales and the cost of goods sold divided by revenue. This represents the percentage of each dollar of a company's revenue available after accounting for cost of goods sold. A quick look at wiki show mcdonalds average sales of 2.3 mill with an average profit margin of ~10% (percent as a relation to sales revenue) I suspect your figure of a 30% gross profit ignores labor costs (and maybe other costs as well) but even if that percent is in ratio to all invested money in- a profit margin in relationship to sales is more relevant here (because that is the percent that changes when you increase labor costs)
$15/h for a job at McDonalds sounded pretty wild until I converted $15 to Euros. Seems fair. It's still pretty shit hourly wage unless you do nights and weekends too. Those bring in the real money.
[QUOTE=H8Entitlement;43110136]Using your own links I get.. A gross profit margin is the difference between sales and the cost of goods sold divided by revenue. This represents the percentage of each dollar of a company's revenue available after accounting for cost of goods sold. A quick look at wiki show mcdonalds average sales of 2.3 mill with an average profit margin of ~10% (percent as a relation to sales revenue) I suspect your figure of a 30% gross profit ignores labor costs (and maybe other costs as well) but even if that percent is in ratio to all invested money in- a profit margin in relationship to sales is more relevant here (because that is the percent that changes when you increase labor costs)[/QUOTE] Cost of goods sold includes labor cost [url]http://ycharts.com/glossary/terms/cost_of_goods_sold[/url]
I absolutely want to raise the minimum wage, but an issue I see that isn't normally brought up is how many small businesses are going to be impacted from a wage increase? There may need to be a subsidy for small businesses so they wont be hurt as much when we do raise the minimum wage. As for big ass companies like Mcdonalds, Walmart, ect. complaining about profit? Fuck them. This subsidy should come from the savings of reduced welfare recipients from the increase in pay. Actually that brings up another point, if people could live without government assistance on the minimum wage, we would save a lot of money just from that.
[QUOTE=Valnar;43110177]Cost of goods sold includes labor cost [url]http://ycharts.com/glossary/terms/cost_of_goods_sold[/url][/QUOTE] Ok, but otherwise what I said remains. A metric of profit as a percent relative to revenue is more important here. In the case of McDonalds- about ten percent of sales revenue is profit. Using the other figure in my post above (which says average sales revenue of 2.3 mill) I can see they have roughly 230k profit per year. Some of that could be used to increase wages sure. But we're not talking astronomical sums here and I doubt it's enough to double labor costs.
[QUOTE=H8Entitlement;43110232]Ok, but otherwise what I said remains. A metric of profit as a percent relative to revenue is more important here. In the case of McDonalds- about ten percent of sales revenue is profit. Using the other figure in my post above (which says average sales revenue of 2.3 mill) I can see they have roughly 230k profit per year. Some of that could be used to increase wages sure. But we're not talking astronomical sums here and I doubt it's enough to double labor costs.[/QUOTE] I don't know where the hell you are getting those numbers, but mcdonalds is a multi-billion dollar a year company. [url]http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/earnings/earnings.asp?ticker=MCD[/url] Almost 30 billion a year in revenue.
[QUOTE=stewe231;43110210]I absolutely want to raise the minimum wage, but an issue I see that isn't normally brought up is how many small businesses are going to be impacted from a wage increase? There may need to be a subsidy for small businesses so they wont be hurt as much when we do raise the minimum wage. As for big ass companies like Mcdonalds, Walmart, ect. complaining about profit? Fuck them. This subsidy should come from the savings of reduced welfare recipients from the increase in pay.[/QUOTE] Are small businesses really going to be effected by a raise in minimum wages though? I mean how many small businesses actually hire people at minumum wage and those that do, would they really be effected by it because they have a small number of employees? Doing a quick search I found this Gallup poll report on it. [url]http://www.gallup.com/poll/22711/minimum-wage-has-impact-small-business.aspx[/url] Its from 2006 so its a bit old, but it looks like small businesses generally aren't very effected by minimum wage. [editline]8th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=H8Entitlement;43110232]Ok, but otherwise what I said remains. A metric of profit as a percent relative to revenue is more important here. In the case of McDonalds- about ten percent of sales revenue is profit. Using the other figure in my post above (which says average sales revenue of 2.3 mill) I can see they have roughly 230k profit per year. Some of that could be used to increase wages sure. But we're not talking astronomical sums here and I doubt it's enough to double labor costs.[/QUOTE] I don't know what numbers you are reading from, but Mcdonalds made a profit of 1.5 billion in just the third quarter of this year. [url]http://news.mcdonalds.com/Corporate/Press-Releases/Financial-Release?xmlreleaseid=123038[/url]
[QUOTE=Valnar;43110252] I don't know what numbers you are reading from, but Mcdonalds made a profit of 1.5 billion in just the third quarter of this year. [url]http://news.mcdonalds.com/Corporate/Press-Releases/Financial-Release?xmlreleaseid=123038[/url][/QUOTE] You are getting the forest confused with the trees... What your quoting is the corporation named Mcdonalds, and their overall profit is quite impressive. However, their profit is generated from individual stores (and franchise fees and so on). [url]http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_average_mcdonald's_franchise_net_profit#slide1[/url] This link shows the figures ive been mentioning and the figures deal with individual locations. It shows that individual locations make a profit of roughly 230 thousand. That is the amount they have to work with- they simply can not absorb costs higher then that and remain solvent (w/o drastic changes elsewhere)
[QUOTE=H8Entitlement;43110354]You are getting the forest confused with the trees... What your quoting is the corporation named Mcdonalds, and their overall profit is quite impressive. However, their profit is generated from individual stores (and franchise fees and so on). [url]http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_average_mcdonald's_franchise_net_profit#slide1[/url] This link shows the figures ive been mentioning and the figures deal with individual locations. It shows that individual locations make a profit of roughly 230 thousand. That is the amount they have to work with- they simply can not absorb costs higher then that and remain solvent (w/o drastic changes elsewhere)[/QUOTE] I wouldn't trust a general answers site like that when it comes to the economics of doing business. Even if it turns out correct, it's just something you shouldn't do.
[QUOTE=stewe231;43110369]I wouldn't trust a general answers site like that when it comes to the economics of doing business. Even if it turns out correct, it's just something you shouldn't do.[/QUOTE] I'm not looking to do their tax returns lol. And while I agree that it's outdated information it does list a reference for their figures. Furthermore having worked in fast food before I can say the figures they quote look to be what I would expect (as an average mind you). My main point here is these places aren't shitting gold bricks twice daily. Like any business they have costs, they have sales revenue. Could minimum wage be raised without "drastic" consequences? Yes, yes it could. Can minimum wage be nearly doubled without drastic consequences? I'm not convinced it can- and personally I'm not convinced it should be. Going further- This protest makes no sense to me. You want to protest your jobs wages? Form a union. You want to raise minimum wage? Start a grass roots campaign (can be done on the state level even). You want to be fired and replaced by one of many, many currently unemployed persons? Do what these ppl are doing- and don't forget to ask for the ridiculous sum of nearly DOUBLE what you currently make.
[QUOTE=H8Entitlement;43110354]You are getting the forest confused with the trees... What your quoting is the corporation named Mcdonalds, and their overall profit is quite impressive. However, their profit is generated from individual stores (and franchise fees and so on). [URL]http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_average_mcdonald's_franchise_net_profit#slide1[/URL] This link shows the figures ive been mentioning and the figures deal with individual locations. It shows that individual locations make a profit of roughly 230 thousand. That is the amount they have to work with- they simply can not absorb costs higher then that and remain solvent (w/o drastic changes elsewhere)[/QUOTE] If what you are saying is accurate, than there is a pretty big discrepancy between the profit margins between the corporation and individual store. So maybe the issue there is with the royalty practices that goes on with mcdonalds. [QUOTE=H8Entitlement;43110460]I'm not looking to do their tax returns lol. And while I agree that it's outdated information it does list a reference for their figures. Furthermore having worked in fast food before I can say the figures they quote look to be what I would expect (as an average mind you). My main point here is these places aren't shitting gold bricks twice daily. Like any business they have costs, they have sales revenue. Could minimum wage be raised without "drastic" consequences? Yes, yes it could. Can minimum wage be nearly doubled without drastic consequences? I'm not convinced it can- and personally I'm not convinced it should be. Going further- This protest makes no sense to me. You want to protest your jobs wages? Form a union. You want to raise minimum wage? Start a grass roots campaign (can be done on the state level even). You want to be fired and replaced by one of many, many currently unemployed persons? Do what these ppl are doing- and don't forget to ask for the ridiculous sum of nearly DOUBLE what you currently make.[/QUOTE] Unions have been pretty much killed off in the US. Also starting a grass roots campaign takes a good amount of time and money to do, which most people who have to work minimum wage don't have a lot of either.
[QUOTE=H8Entitlement;43110354]You are getting the forest confused with the trees... What your quoting is the corporation named Mcdonalds, and their overall profit is quite impressive. However, their profit is generated from individual stores (and franchise fees and so on). [url]http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_average_mcdonald's_franchise_net_profit#slide1[/url] This link shows the figures ive been mentioning and the figures deal with individual locations. It shows that individual locations make a profit of roughly 230 thousand. That is the amount they have to work with- they simply can not absorb costs higher then that and remain solvent (w/o drastic changes elsewhere)[/QUOTE] You've got it backwards, the insane corporate profit margins vs. the stores is the reason why the stores can't afford to pay their workers properly. If the minimum wage went up, corporate could charge lower franchise fees and pay their CEO's a bit less. Maybe then walmart wouldn't have to hold a canned food drive for their own workers.
Both of you have it backwards... Mcdonalds (the giant corporation) is made up of individual stores. All the individual places they run combined= a ton of profit. Individually they (each) must make a profit or be closed. Yes on top of their individual store profits the corporation sells franchise licenses and they may have other minor sources of income. Would individual franchise locations have more money if the corporation charged less? Of course, and if it made business sense the franchised stores could change their name (and product offerings of course). Short version- if I owned one store that store has to make a profit or it closes. If I own 2k stores each one must make a profit or it closes. It doesn't matter to me if overall I still make a profit with x stores showing a loss- those stores are closing. I don't see franchise fees, royalty fees, or w/e else the corporation charges to use its name being an issue- if you bought into the franchise you knew in full what was demanded (by contract). I don't believe unions have died off so much as they became unnecessary. It is still a valid option though some states laws are more pro union then others. As for the effort of a minimum wage hike drive- yes it takes effort. One person isn't going to get it done. But it has to be a better option then what they're currently doing. As for wall mart. Meh, IMO they should be fined heavily for some of their illegal anti union tactics. Other then their illegal activities I don't see a problem with them.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.