• Terry Jones denied entry into canada
    109 replies, posted
[QUOTE=archangel125;38003416]Canada has free speech. That's what you're not getting. And people exercise their right to free speech all the time. I exercise my right to free speech all the time. But our society has no place for bigotry-motivated hate speech. I can criticize any religious institution I like and have no penalties leveled against me, but when it stops being a criticism and becomes a rabid rant, that's where the law draws the line. That's how it should be. You have no right to say what is morally right and what is not.[/QUOTE] Banning hate speech means you don't have free speech. "We have free speech as long as it isn't mean" is not free speech. It's censorship. [QUOTE=Kalibos;38002804]tbh people like you take the idea of free speech [I]too[/I] seriously. if you ask me, like any rights, there's nothing that literally guarantees your right to free speech - you can largely say what you want in developed countries because you're not hurting anyone. it's like a nicety that society affords you, and little more. I don't think you deserve that nicety if all you're going to spout is hatred against others. it's like a collective societal decision to disallow unnecessary, excessive verbal abuse. if you don't support that idea, you're free to move to the middle of nowhere and live by whatever uncivilized rules you want. and yes you can make the slippery slope argument about censorship I guess but I don't see it as being relevant in situations like this. whatever (these thoughts brought to you by a canadian)[/QUOTE] If you don't agree with something someone has to say, then don't fucking agree with it. Hearing a differing opinion isn't going to taint your mind and suddenly make people into droning racist zombies. I honestly don't think free speech can be taken too seriously, a person shouldn't have to worry about being banned from a country because what they say doesn't conform to the current social norms. [editline]12th October 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=archangel125;38003600]I don't, either. I never did claim to have moral authority - Nor should you. But as a Canadian (And here is where many, if not all Canadians agree) I think that unless someone's got something worth saying, they ought to keep it to themselves. That's why Americans think Canadians are so polite. We won't waste the energy starting an argument with you if we think you're an idiot, we'll just smile and nod and find an excuse to get away.[/QUOTE] If you do that, then why is it such a big deal letting people into the country that say mean things? Just ignore them and move on.
[QUOTE=Nikota;38003611]If I tell you that you shouldn't have a right to exist and you need to die for your beliefs, that's crossing the fucking line.[/QUOTE] police help I'd just say okay bye. Why is that so hard to understand? It's not like you're pushing me or hitting me. You said mean words. You'd be an asshole, but that shouldn't be illegal.
[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;38003624]Banning hate speech means you don't have free speech. "We have free speech as long as it isn't mean" is not free speech. It's censorship.[/quote] That's your opinion. Canadians would disagree. Our society operates on different rules than American society does, believe it or not. And Canadians are perfectly happy with the way things are, for the most part. Those that aren't can appeal the criminal code through the courts and change the law, if it is found to be overtly oppressive. How would you even know how the law is applied here without seeing it first-hand? You're making assumptions. [QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;38003624] If you do that, then why is it such a big deal letting people into the country that say mean things? Just ignore them and move on.[/QUOTE] Because nobody ever said we had to let them in, and they'd piss too many people off if we did. The US wouldn't let me in if I was a known for burning US flags, either.
[QUOTE=archangel125;38003709]That's your opinion. Canadians would disagree. Our society operates on different rules than American society does, believe it or not. And Canadians are perfectly happy with the way things are, for the most part. Those that aren't can appeal the criminal code through the courts and change the law, if it is found to be overtly oppressive. How would you even know how the law is applied here without seeing it first-hand? You're making assumptions. [/QUOTE] I'm making these posts because I disagree with these laws. Just because these laws exist don't make them right. [quote] Because nobody ever said we had to let them in, and they'd piss too many people off if we did. The US wouldn't let me in if I was a known for burning US flags, either.[/quote] You just said your people ignore idiots and move along, so again, why is letting idiots into your country that say mean things such a big deal if you ignore them in the first place?
[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;38003749]I'm making these posts because I disagree with these laws. Just because these laws exist don't make them right. You just said your people ignore idiots and move along, so again, why is letting idiots into your country that say mean things such a big deal if you ignore them in the first place?[/QUOTE] You have a right to disagree with our laws, even under our constitution. But unless you've lived in Canada, you don't really know how the law is applied, and from my perspective as a Canadian you're massively overreacting to something you don't fully understand. We keep them out of our country because whether we ignored them or not, they'd offend people and incite violence against minorities by being idiots. Asshats should be seen, not heard. If I know Canadians, it's in the interests of his own safety that Terry Jones stay out of the country. Toronto is multicultural as hell, and if there was a riot, well... bad shit can happen.
If your country is so unstable that it erupts into a riot because mean words are said, then there's probably something wrong with the populous as a whole. Why ban something that has no physical weight like speech, instead of just enforcing the laws against assault of destruction of property?
[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;38003749]You just said your people ignore idiots and move along, so again, why is letting idiots into your country that say mean things such a big deal if you ignore them in the first place?[/QUOTE] Because even if we ignore them, we still don't want to deal with them. It's our country, we can let in who we want. If someone is world renowned for causing a ruckus, then we don't want them here, they can go piss in their own sea of piss. [editline]11th October 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=T2L_Goose;38003824]If your country is so unstable that is erupts into a riot because mean words are said, then there's probably something wrong with the populous as a whole. Why ban something that has no physical weight like speech, instead of just enforcing the laws against assault of destruction of property?[/QUOTE] Speech has weight.
[QUOTE=T2L_Goose;38003824]If your country is so unstable that it erupts into a riot because mean words are said, then there's probably something wrong with the populous as a whole. Why ban something that has no physical weight like speech, instead of just enforcing the laws against assault of destruction of property?[/QUOTE] Doing something like burning the bible will cause a massive shitstorm. It may not cause a riot, but people will assault you and/or your property.
[QUOTE=OogalaBoogal;38003826]Because even if we ignore them, we still don't want to deal with them. It's our country, we can let in who we want. If someone is world renowned for causing a ruckus, then we don't want them here, they can go piss in their own sea of piss. [editline]11th October 2012[/editline] Speech has weight.[/QUOTE] But not physical weight. It's not the same as punching someone in the face or spitting on them. It's something that you HEAR. [editline]11th October 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;38003846]Doing something like burning the bible will cause a massive shitstorm. It may not cause a riot, but people will assault you and/or your property.[/QUOTE] Then arrest the people that assault me and my property. I wouldn't be the criminal, the people who assault me and my property would be. How is that hard to understand?
[QUOTE=T2L_Goose;38003847]But not physical weight. It's not the same as punching someone in the face or spitting on them. It's something that you HEAR. [editline]11th October 2012[/editline] Then arrest the people that assault me and my property. I wouldn't be the criminal, the people who assault me and my property would be. How is that hard to understand?[/QUOTE] It effects people emotionally, and sometimes that can be worse that physical assault. This is one thing that Americans never really seem to get about it.
[QUOTE=T2L_Goose;38003847]But not physical weight. It's not the same as punching someone in the face or spitting on them. It's something that you HEAR. [editline]11th October 2012[/editline] Then arrest the people that assault me and my property. I wouldn't be the criminal, the people who assault me and my property would be. How is that hard to understand?[/QUOTE] Let's call it a cultural difference and be done with it. Just as I, being non-muslim, will never fully understand Islam from an Islamic perspective, you, as an American, will never fully understand Canada from a Canadian perspective. [editline]11th October 2012[/editline] Nor can I truly understand the USA, no matter how hard I try.
[QUOTE=T2L_Goose;38003847]Then arrest the people that assault me and my property. I wouldn't be the criminal, the people who assault me and my property would be. How is that hard to understand?[/QUOTE] It's a waste of time and money. It would be better if you just didn't say stupid shit in the first place. [editline]49[/editline] Think of it as getting banned on facepunch for "Trollbating"
[QUOTE=OogalaBoogal;38003878]It effects people emotionally, and sometimes that can be worse that physical assault. This is one thing that Americans never really seem to get about it.[/QUOTE] Oh please. It effects you emotionally if you let it. So it's okay to ban anything that makes people feel bad emotionally? I don't get the logic.
[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;38003903] Think of it as getting banned on facepunch for "Trollbating"[/QUOTE] This, pretty much. [editline]11th October 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=T2L_Goose;38003910]Oh please. It effects you emotionally if you let it. So it's okay to ban anything that makes people feel bad emotionally? I don't get the logic.[/QUOTE] This is all way over your head, dude. I wouldn't know how to explain it in a way you'd get, because we've no common frame of reference for this. You're entitled to your opinions, of course, and I respect your right to those. What I don't appreciate is your insinuation that you know what's best for Canada better than us Canadians.
[QUOTE=T2L_Goose;38003910]Oh please. It effects you emotionally if you let it. So it's okay to ban anything that makes people feel bad emotionally? I don't get the logic.[/QUOTE] It does. The studies are dime a dozen.
[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;38003749]I'm making these posts because I disagree with these laws. Just because these laws exist don't make them right. You just said your people ignore idiots and move along, so again, why is letting idiots into your country that say mean things such a big deal if you ignore them in the first place?[/QUOTE] I don't know if you actually believe what you're saying or you're just trying to sustain what you've already said. Your comparisons between 'being mean' and 'preaching hate' indicate the latter. Stopping people from coming into your country who are only trying to start shit is perfectly reasonable, why should the people have to put up with useless garbage when it can be prevented easily at no cost?
[QUOTE=archangel125;38003915]This, pretty much. [editline]11th October 2012[/editline] This is all way over your head, dude. I wouldn't know how to explain it in a way you'd get, because we've no common frame of reference for this. You're entitled to your opinions, of course, and I respect your right to those. What I don't appreciate is your insinuation that you know what's best for Canada better than us Canadians.[/QUOTE] I'm sorry, I don't mean to make it sound like that. I guess I'm just arguing the general attitude and idea. Canada is different and has a different culture and I accept and respect that. I guess I just got way too caught up in the argument. It's more fascinating than anything. Anyway, I'll drop it. sorry.
[QUOTE=T2L_Goose;38003945]I'm sorry, I don't mean to make it sound like that. I guess I'm just arguing the general attitude and idea. Canada is different and has a different culture and I accept and respect that. I guess I just got way too caught up in the argument. It's more fascinating than anything.[/QUOTE] One of the reasons that Canadians are so polite, nice, and generally thoughtful is because its written into our laws. Think about that.
[QUOTE=T2L_Goose;38003910]Oh please. It effects you emotionally if you let it. So it's okay to ban anything that makes people feel bad emotionally? I don't get the logic.[/QUOTE] You're taking this way out of context. People are barred from entering the country if they're liable to preach hate (which is something people can be criminally charged with inside the country). This does not equate to banning anything that makes people feel bad.
[QUOTE=T2L_Goose;38002878]How can you take free speech "too seriously"? What other rights should people not take "seriously"? I'm curious.[/QUOTE] all of them rights aren't real. they're nice in concept and they're alright to jabber about but when push comes to shove you don't have the legal "right" to anything. such is the nature of power.
[QUOTE=Kalibos;38004201]all of them rights aren't real. they're nice in concept and they're alright to jabber about but when push comes to shove you don't have the legal "right" to anything. such is the nature of power.[/QUOTE] yes you can make the whole "you don't REALLY have rights" schtick but they're quite a good idea that should be taken very seriously. people take what these people say too seriously. i don't get all up in arms or frothing-at-the-mouth hatred at Terry Jones or the WBC, i simply dismiss them for the ignoramuses they are and move on. more people should learn to do the same instead of having a government have to legislate against them. you don't have a right to not be "emotionally affected" because that's way too vague to draw any sort of line. and i'm timid to begin with about "hate speech" laws because limiting any kind of speech (bar death threats and incitement to panic obviously) sets dangerous precedents. just look at that case in the UK where a guy was arresting over an explicit facebook post. what a crock of shit.
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;38004336]yes you can make the whole "you don't REALLY have rights" schtick but they're quite a good idea that should be taken very seriously.[/QUOTE] sure they are but I brought it up to emphasize the fact that free speech isn't a right, it's just a nice rule of society that we can all abide until it gets obnoxious
[QUOTE=TamTamJam;38003939]I don't know if you actually believe what you're saying or you're just trying to sustain what you've already said. Your comparisons between 'being mean' and 'preaching hate' indicate the latter. Stopping people from coming into your country who are only trying to start shit is perfectly reasonable, why should the people have to put up with useless garbage when it can be prevented easily at no cost?[/QUOTE] But it isn't reasonable. Saying stupid bull shit thats mean or considered hate speech shouldn't void your right to enter a country and preach your beliefs there.
[QUOTE=JerryK;38001021]that's the point, they should be allowed it's called free speech [editline]11th October 2012[/editline] and it's awesome by the way[/QUOTE] Why can I then not do insider trading? Why can I not threaten people? Free speech has its limits, and a countries values decide where those limits are set. While Canada doesn't allow hate speech, that does not include criticism of religion or political affiliations. It evolves around things you can't change, such as skin color. Why should it not fall under the same category of illegal speech as threatening people?
[QUOTE=mac338;38004675]Why can I then not do insider trading? Why can I not threaten people? Free speech has its limits, and a countries values decide where those limits are set. While Canada doesn't allow hate speech, that does not include criticism of religion or political affiliations. It evolves around things you can't change, such as skin color. Why should it not fall under the same category of illegal speech as threatening people?[/QUOTE] It shouldn't fall under any category of illegal speech. They shouldn't be barred from the country because they spew bull shit out of their mouths.
[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;38004715]It shouldn't fall under any category of illegal speech. They shouldn't be barred from the country because they spew bull shit out of their mouths.[/QUOTE] Nobody in Canada cares about their hate speech, they can stay out.
[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;38004715]It shouldn't fall under any category of illegal speech. They shouldn't be barred from the country because they spew bull shit out of their mouths.[/QUOTE] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Jones_(pastor)#Controversies[/url] [url]http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-153.html[/url] Why should CBSA let someone into the country who has demonstrated a concerted effort to vilify and demonize a group of people. Why should we let someone into the country who has (for at [I]least[/I] two years now) committed actions that fly in the face of our laws? He is not a citizen of Canada ([url=http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/Const/page-15.html]section 6[/url]), this isn't an illegal action. [url=http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/security-securite/admiss-eng.html]This is the CBSA doing their job[/url].
[QUOTE=T2L_Goose;38003910]Oh please. It effects you emotionally if you let it. So it's okay to ban anything that makes people feel bad emotionally? I don't get the logic.[/QUOTE] Speech carries weight, physical weight, anything that is a reaction due to speech is the weight it carries. Speech can harm you emotionally, but if it's aggressive enough, or people believe it, it is then able to harm you physically by being the start of a physical fight. You don't see two drunks fighting each other in a bar because both of them walked up to each other and started wailing on each other, most likely they slurred something to one another, one of them got pissed, and then started fighting the other. Speech carries weight, and if you don't know that it does then you're misinformed because everything in modern age is born out of speech, speech that had carried weight, enough weight for people to start doing physical things because they believed in it.
[QUOTE=Keyblockor;38004895]Speech carries weight, physical weight, anything that is a reaction due to speech is the weight it carries. Speech can harm you emotionally, but if it's aggressive enough, or people believe it, it is then able to harm you physically by being the start of a physical fight. You don't see two drunks fighting each other in a bar because both of them walked up to each other and started wailing on each other, most likely they slurred something to one another, one of them got pissed, and then started fighting the other. Speech carries weight, and if you don't know that it does then you're misinformed because everything in modern age is born out of speech, speech that had carried weight, enough weight for people to start doing physical things because they believed in it.[/QUOTE] okay, so where do you draw the line? how do you decide what speech is allowed and what isn't? should it not, then, be illegal to insult someone because it starts a fist fight between drunks? "aggressive enough" or "people believe in it" is too vague a reason to be limiting speech.
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;38004989]okay, so where do you draw the line? how do you decide what speech is allowed and what isn't? should it not, then, be illegal to insult someone because it starts a fist fight between drunks? "aggressive enough" or "people believe in it" is too vague a reason to be limiting speech.[/QUOTE] [url]http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-153.html#h-92[/url] Thats got some pretty good red lines to follow.
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