• Russia: We wont return Crimea to Ukraine
    72 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Cructo;51826445]nothing wrong with their stance considering the people voted in the referendum to be part of Russia, and the majority of the population is Russian it's pretty much the same thing that happened in kosovo[/QUOTE] No shit that a big part of the population is Russian. Russia has been colonising and either heavily russifying the native population or simply deporting ever since the ol'Tsar days. [img]https://i.gyazo.com/ef3c43411d78b514ae4e4b2e8f0ad0e8.png[/img] Lots of liberation-wars for poor oppressed russians "natives" incoming the next decades.
At least now they admit they're behind the invasion and occupation. Sure would be nice to go back in time to rub this in the faces of those russian nationalists who insisted it was ukrainian separatists
I was writing a research paper on this and now I have to throw it all out :saddowns:
[QUOTE=Aredbomb;51826490]The referendum presented 2 options: "Join Russia now", and "Declare independence so that we can join Russia immediately after". They created a no-win situation for the pro-Ukrainians and essentially forced them to not participate. And it's hard to believe that almost all of the people who weren't pro-Ukraine were against the idea of independence when that's exactly what the pro-Russian rebels to the north of them did. It was less of a referendum and more of a "fuck you" to Crimea's pro-Ukrainian and pro-Independence population.[/QUOTE] I posted the original ballot, since your wording indicates those were the actual choices which is not true. What you mentioned was argued by various commentators but we don't know for sure whether they meant the original 1992 constitution or the one amended a day later. [t]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/2014_Crimean_referendum_ballot.png[/t] Choice 1: Do you support the reunification of Crimea with Russia with all the rights of the federal subject of the Russian Federation? Choice 2: Do you support the restoration of the Constitution of the Republic of Crimea in 1992 and the status of the Crimea as part of Ukraine?
[QUOTE=Cructo;51826445]nothing wrong with their stance considering the people voted in the referendum to be part of Russia, and the majority of the population is Russian it's pretty much the same thing that happened in kosovo[/QUOTE] [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_people's_referendum,_1946"]yeah russia and manipulating votes never ever happened after all[/URL]
[QUOTE=gudman;51826536]That's straight up untrue.[/QUOTE] Spot the shill
Crimea is full of majority Russians. While the 91% result may be bullshit I doubt that the majority wanted to stay in Ukraine. [editline]a[/editline] [QUOTE=Tasm;51828172]Spot the shill[/QUOTE] hurr shill [QUOTE=Kecske;51828117]I posted the original ballot, since your wording indicates those were the actual choices which is not true. What you mentioned was argued by various commentators but we don't know for sure whether they meant the original 1992 constitution or the one amended a day later. [t]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/2014_Crimean_referendum_ballot.png[/t] Choice 1: Do you support the reunification of Crimea with Russia with all the rights of the federal subject of the Russian Federation? Choice 2: Do you support the restoration of the Constitution of the Republic of Crimea in 1992 and the status of the Crimea as part of Ukraine?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Stopper;51826985]What about these STALKER cosplayers?[/QUOTE] THose are russian soldiers. You can tell because of the digi flora camo and AK74Ms. They put zero effort in pretending to not be russians, it is hilarious.
[QUOTE=PaChIrA;51828283]THose are russian soldiers. You can tell because of the digi flora camo and AK74Ms. They put zero effort in pretending to not be russians, it is hilarious.[/QUOTE] You can buy digiflora on the internet for $50.
[QUOTE=chernisreal?;51828310]You can buy digiflora on the internet for $50.[/QUOTE] You can but the soldiers are obviously Russian. [t]http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/03/03/article-2571799-1BF9C23000000578-987_964x920.jpg[/t] [t]http://static.businessinsider.com/image/531724bb6da811152b509788/image.jpg[/t] [t]http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/wnij/files/201403/Crimea_soldiers.JPG[/t] Vintorez, SVDS, and GAZ Tigr aren't exactly things you can by on the internet for cheap
[QUOTE=Araknid;51828315]You can but the soldiers are obviously Russian.[/QUOTE] How do you know? They look like airsofters to me..
[QUOTE=chernisreal?;51828327]How do you know? They look like airsofters to me..[/QUOTE] Spot the actual shill.
The Art of The Deal
Holy shit, this is like the stickied thread in RC
[QUOTE=Araknid;51828315] Vintorez, SVDS, and GAZ Tigr aren't exactly things you can by on the internet for cheap[/QUOTE] Sadly.
[QUOTE=Cructo;51828424]is everyone who disagrees with you a shill ?[/QUOTE] No? If you can make an argument better than "looks like airsofters" regarding their equipment I might be inclined to consider the possibility they're not Russian.
[QUOTE=Cructo;51826445]nothing wrong with their stance considering the people voted in the referendum to be part of Russia, and the majority of the population is Russian it's pretty much the same thing that happened in kosovo[/QUOTE] "Voted"
[QUOTE=Cructo;51828424]is everyone who disagrees with you a shill ?[/QUOTE] In a year that has so far seen more than it's fair share of ironic SH posts, this might be the new top spot.
"Respect the will of the people" lmao the Chechens would like a word with you.
[QUOTE=ser770;51827644]No shit that a big part of the population is Russian. Russia has been colonising and either heavily russifying the native population or simply deporting ever since the ol'Tsar days. [img]https://i.gyazo.com/ef3c43411d78b514ae4e4b2e8f0ad0e8.png[/img] Lots of liberation-wars for poor oppressed russians "natives" incoming the next decades.[/QUOTE] [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification]They did this on purpose to assert dominance over the region.[/url]
[QUOTE=Wiggles;51826577]A referendum that went ahead less than a month after the unauthorised occupation of the peninsular by Russian forces and was organised without Ukrainian or indeed any international oversight. Even if the result wouldn't have changed under different circumstances, it's pretty ridiculous to take the vote at face value given everything that was happening.[/QUOTE] There were movements and talks towards voting on secession in the Crimean parliament weeks before the Russian army entered Crimea, they were recanted on after threats by the SBU. Regardless, Sevastopol ended up illegally installing a pro-russian mayor after yanuk's fall without the president's consent as crowds blocked the administrative building, anticipating police reprisal. People and towns were forming militias during the chaos of February. Pew polls show support for secession. It seems pretty arrogant to declare an obvious case of self-determination to be illegitimate, and hypocritical since we supported the independence of Kosovo and conduct elections under occupation all the time. [url]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Russian_Federation[/url] [QUOTE=Sobotnik;51826760]how come this doesn't apply to the chechens, tatars, mordvins, chuvash, bashkirs, and udmurts then? or how konigsberg is full of people who want to disassociate themselves from the rest of russia?[/QUOTE] Actually, because russia is federalized (which is what anti-maidan types wanted before war became inevitable) there is a framework for this to peacefully happen. Most of these were given autonomous SSR or autonomous oblast status in the USSR. Ukraine is different, it's a relatively new country and unitary nation-state, and half of its territory was only integrated under conditions of soviet multiculturalism. Its struggle for one national identity and ukrainization that is in turn driven by the western regions, which was polish controlled until WW2, is a driving force for its issues today. The country is failing economically and now it's failing as a nation-state without a soviet framework for the different nationalities. Its balkanization is naturally happening, and the only real reason it's an issue is because the eastern regions are where the wealth is. [QUOTE=Govna;51827157].. but we didn't unfortunately.[/QUOTE] Speak for yourself. Nobody wants war with a nuclear power, least of all to shove things down the throat of locals. Intervening in ukraine would've been incredibly stupid, and a unilateral American action as NATO countries did not support arms for ukraine, let alone war. Ukrainians themselves support negotiations. [QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;51827479] Hell, it doesn't even apply to Ukraine, [I]a separate and sovereign country.[/I] All this "Self Determination" bullshit from the pro-Russia side, you would think that applies to the country they invaded because they didn't like the direction it was taking. Self Determination my ass.[/QUOTE] Polls show there was a pretty even split between support for EU association and the customs union, and there was no EU majority until crimean secession, least of all in historically russian areas where the wealth was and whose industry would've been gutted under the EU. Maidan was not self-determination, it was the unconstitutional change in government by one half of the country under nationalist pretenses and in part funded by western NGOs (such as the national endowment for democracy), which in turn were seen as threatening by the other, multicultural half that was only integrated into ukraine in the soviet era. It was a color revolution turned bad as it became a cultural and economic existential threat to the rest of the country. I don't like these polls and prefer pew polls, but they support my claim that there was no actual majority support for EU association until Crimea left the country, and it has lost majority support in the most recent polls. [url]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Popular_support_to_EU_integration_of_Ukraine_in_Ukraine[/url]
[QUOTE=David29;51826684]The potential outcome of a referendum does not provide a valid pretext for an invasion. That's like saying that the Iraq War was a-ok because people didn't like Saddam. Self-determination is important but it needs to be handled diplomatically.[/QUOTE] Just like how Euromaidan was handled diplomatically, right? Yanukovich was even about to comply with protersters' demands, but nope, let's trash the whole old government and put a fucking oligarch on presidency. You just cannot reason with those people.
[QUOTE=SouthParkMGT;51830192]Just like how Euromaidan was handled diplomatically, right? Yanukovich was even about to comply with protersters' demands, but nope, let's trash the whole old government and put a fucking oligarch on presidency. You just cannot reason with those people.[/QUOTE] I swear that whenever I see a criticism levied against Russia in relation to Ukraine, the response is always basically "but... Euromaidan!". Euromaidan is completely irrelevant to the point I made. You don't go and invade another country just because you think it's people would be happier under an alternative rule.
[QUOTE=PaChIrA;51828283]THose are russian soldiers. You can tell because of the digi flora camo and AK74Ms. They put zero effort in pretending to not be russians, it is hilarious.[/QUOTE] Joke went way over your head, mates. [editline]16th February 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Tureis;51828441]No? If you can make an argument better than "looks like airsofters" regarding their equipment I might be inclined to consider the possibility they're not Russian.[/QUOTE] People painfully miss the points of those posts, wow.
[QUOTE=David29;51830247]I swear that whenever I see a criticism levied against Russia in relation to Ukraine, the response is always basically "but... Euromaidan!". Euromaidan is completely irrelevant to the point I made. You don't go and invade another country just because you think it's people would be happier under an alternative rule.[/QUOTE] How many countries has the US invaded under the pretext of better rule?
[QUOTE=chernisreal?;51830303]How many countries has the US invaded under the pretext of better rule?[/QUOTE] And I have not advocated any of them. Quite the opposite: if you read my original post you will notice that I made an example of the Iraq War. But the actions of the USA does not legitimise the actions of Russia.
[QUOTE=chernisreal?;51830303]How many countries has the US invaded under the pretext of better rule?[/QUOTE] kek! and how many US citizens do you see beat their chest in russian fashion to defend that?
[QUOTE=ser770;51830478]kek! and how many US citizens do you see beat their chest in russian fashion to defend that?[/QUOTE] Alot? I was on the ferry earlier this month and was sitting behind a dude talking outloud about how smart Trump was and how Muslims are evil and shit infront of a newscast and I decisively decided to move away
and then the ferry clapped
[QUOTE=ser770;51827644]No shit that a big part of the population is Russian. Russia has been colonising and either heavily russifying the native population or simply deporting ever since the ol'Tsar days. [img]https://i.gyazo.com/ef3c43411d78b514ae4e4b2e8f0ad0e8.png[/img] Lots of liberation-wars for poor oppressed russians "natives" incoming the next decades.[/QUOTE] Crimea was never really ethnically Ukrainian to begin with though, it was mostly Tatar. Then the area became progressively more Russian (and Ukrainian to a lesser extent) at the expense of the Tatars. But imo it doesn't really matter how the Russian population got there or how long they've been there as long as the situation is resolved by a proper, fair referendum (which it wasn't and probably isn't going to be).
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