[quote]Ukraine says the referendum was a sham held at gunpoint after Russian troops illegally [B]annexed [/B]the peninsula. [/quote]
Any time anyone supporting Russia or Russia itself calls the US imperialist. Remind everyone present that this was point-blank the most imperialist action of the century thus far.
[QUOTE=Tureis;51828441]No? If you can make an argument better than "looks like airsofters" regarding their equipment I might be inclined to consider the possibility they're not Russian.[/QUOTE]
Looks like mining equipment.
I don't doubt that a majority of Crimeans wanted to join Russia, but accepting invasion -> referendum as a precedent is just retarded. Imagine if the Syrian army dumped some special forces in a Danish asylum center and held a referendum for that place to join Syria, or maybe Denmark invading Solvang in the US doing the same. Obviously these examples are quite ridiculous, but later referendums don't justify invasions.
I also doubt that Russia really cared that much about the population's right to self-determination, as I remember it there was this "warm water port" that might've had something to do with it.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;51830929]I don't doubt that a majority of Crimeans wanted to join Russia, but accepting invasion -> referendum as a precedent is just retarded. Imagine if the Syrian army dumped some special forces in a Danish asylum center and held a referendum for that place to join Syria, or maybe Denmark invading Solvang in the US doing the same. Obviously these examples are quite ridiculous, but later referendums don't justify invasions.
I also doubt that Russia really cared that much about the population's right to self-determination, as I remember it there was this "warm water port" that might've had something to do with it.[/QUOTE]
Well as a caveat to the argument I think they also talked about it historically belonging to Russia which a Danish asylum centre never did to Syria so not quite the same.
Ironic thing is though, if that's a valid argument (according to Russia) then Russia is opening itself up to issues with its high Chinese population in the east. And if China did that to Russia with that justification then Mongolia could reclaim Inner Mongolia. It would be nutty
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;51830954]Well as a caveat to the argument I think they also talked about it historically belonging to Russia which a Danish asylum centre never did to Syria so not quite the same.
Ironic thing is though, if that's a valid argument (according to Russia) then Russia is opening itself up to issues with its high Chinese population in the east. And if China did that to Russia with that justification then Mongolia could reclaim Inner Mongolia. It would be nutty[/QUOTE]
Well, then we'd have to discuss timeframes as well - maybe some parts of the US would like to join the UK? It hasn't even been 250 years, after all. It also begs the question of how small an area you could invade and claim by this method - is Crimea the minimum size, or could you also claim a single household in a different country?
Basically what I'm saying is that referendums are great, but you need to go through the proper diplomatic channels, and while the Crimean populace may be happy, what Russia did was wrong, and I doubt people in Ukraine are just as content with the situation. I know you aren't arguing otherwise, but I'm somewhat disappointed that some people disagree.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;51830968]Well, then we'd have to discuss timeframes as well - maybe some parts of the US would like to join the UK? It hasn't even been 250 years, after all. It also begs the question of how small an area you could invade and claim by this method - is Crimea the minimum size, or could you also claim a single household in a different country?
Basically what I'm saying is that referendums are great, but you need to go through the proper diplomatic channels, and while the Crimean populace may be happy, what Russia did was wrong, and I doubt people in Ukraine are just as content with the situation. I know you aren't arguing otherwise, but I'm somewhat disappointed that some people disagree.[/QUOTE]
Well you have to be pragmatic. If you declare your land belongs to a different nation then do you have the force to defend it? Does that other nation recognise its new addition? Do other nationals recognise the change?
Russia have the power to take that land and maintain it, they do have some support there (though I'm unsure of the actual percentages) and they are stubborn enough to hold onto it till other nations/authorities recognise the change. Sadly for Ukraine sanctions and conflict are inconvenient so very few people will have the conviction to challenge Russia till Crimea is returned, Russia probably recognised this and exploited it, a gamble, we'll take it and hold it till people stop caring and just accept it.
The ideal world would see all authority legitimised by democracy and popularity but I think as things are power trumps all. Just like in the ideal world people would work together for the greater good rather than having to be coerced into doing so through fear of violence or loss of freedom. A referendum is ideal but 1) what about the people who suffer from the tyranny of the majority and 2) a referendum means nothing if someone else has a monopoly on violence or at least has the power to overrule a referendum in their favour. Lots of the time I feel votes and referenda are just a formality, used to mandate an action or law which already had overwhelming support among the people who actually matter (ie Russia were going to hold onto Crimea regardless of what the people there said)
I'm not qualified to say whether the people in Crimea support Russia's annexation - I know lots of the tartars and Muslim community certainly oppose it but I also know some of the Russia community support it.
What I will say though, based on the above, Russia now own Crimea; until/unless someone is willing to challenge their dominance there in any meaningful way. Saying "Crimea doesn't belong to Russia" doesn't mean a lot when Russian politicians make its laws, Russian soldiers patrol its border and Russian money builds its infrastructure. The US and EU making token sanctions and Ukraine talking rhetoric mean nothing.
Its cynical and unpleasant but I think maybe its for the best that it stays that way. If the US/NATO/EU/Ukraine + friends somehow manage to retake Crimea it would not be without much bloodshed; and for what? Ukrainian national pride? Crimeans being ruled by plutocrats in Kiev rather than plutocrats in Moscow?
Only valid reason I see is to show Russia it cannot invade its neighbours without a fight but realistically who wants the fight?
Safer and better to position troops in countries neighbouring Russia. Then Russia picks the fight with NATO (something Russia doesn't want to do) rather than NATO picking a fight with Russia (something NATO doesn't want to do).
For a war you need the support of your people and its much easier to justify a major war if you say "Russia attacked us!" rather than "your children and neighbours are dying because we attacked Russia". In Crimea Russia saw and opportunity and seized the initiative, I think NATO are reluctant to let that happen again.
I'm much more confident in that the crimeans would prefer to be independent than to be ruled by Russia
Russia is already far too big as a country, and every time it tries to grow bigger it causes more problems for Russia
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